Explanation of thyristor type flash

Diane B

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I'm just curious--would someone give a relatively simple explanation of thyristor flashes vs. others. I've google searched, searched on this forum and this site. I get lots of links to flashes that ARE thyristor--but I use TTL/ETTL flashes and would like to understand thyristor also. I don't use a great deal of flash--mostly shoot with available light, but for the commercial work I do--I use flash (but do like the results with ETTL). Nonetheless, I would like this information to add to my own personal knowledge base smile

Thanks for any information or links to sites with good explanations.
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
A thyristor is just a type of semiconductor switch that can turn off a flash pulse very rapidly. A thyristor flash has a photocell in the front to measure light refleted back from the subject. It is calibrated to ISO and aperture and shuts off the flash pulse when it's seen enough.

Thyristor does have some limitations but works remarkably well in most cases. It was in use in the film world years before TTL flash was available and still widely used. I'm using a Metz 45CL-4 with a Minolta Dimage 7 and so far has little motivation to buy a dedicated cord and module so I can get pre-flash TTL and ADI control.

Thyristor flashes can be fooled by near foreground objects that aren't in the frame. Often they will reflect light back and turn the flash off before the more distant subject has enough illumination. Also if you use a filter you will have to factor that in and probably adjust the ISO setting on the flash to compensate.
I'm just curious--would someone give a relatively simple
explanation of thyristor flashes vs. others. I've google searched,
searched on this forum and this site. I get lots of links to
flashes that ARE thyristor--but I use TTL/ETTL flashes and would
like to understand thyristor also. I don't use a great deal of
flash--mostly shoot with available light, but for the commercial
work I do--I use flash (but do like the results with ETTL).
Nonetheless, I would like this information to add to my own
personal knowledge base smile

Thanks for any information or links to sites with good explanations.
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
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A thyristor is just a type of semiconductor switch that can turn
off a flash pulse very rapidly. A thyristor flash has a photocell
in the front to measure light refleted back from the subject. It
is calibrated to ISO and aperture and shuts off the flash pulse
when it's seen enough.

Thyristor does have some limitations but works remarkably well in
most cases. It was in use in the film world years before TTL flash
was available and still widely used. I'm using a Metz 45CL-4 with
a Minolta Dimage 7 and so far has little motivation to buy a
dedicated cord and module so I can get pre-flash TTL and ADI
control.

Thyristor flashes can be fooled by near foreground objects that
aren't in the frame. Often they will reflect light back and turn
the flash off before the more distant subject has enough
illumination. Also if you use a filter you will have to factor
that in and probably adjust the ISO setting on the flash to
compensate.
Thanks, very understandable--no preflash and it measures, would you say, as its flashing???
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
For auto thyristor flashes with auto zoom, do any/all of these type flashes automatically adjust the photo cell sensor's field of view to match the focal length of the camera/lens to determine what light should be sensored? Or, is the field of view for the photo cell sensor a set field of view, regardless of the focal length in effect?

If the sensor's field of view is non-adjustable, or if the flash is a non-zoom flash (fixed angle of coverage), what is the field of view for the photo cell sensor? Is it wide, such as 28mm/35mm field of view? Is it medium, such as a 50mm field of view? Or, is it narrow, such as a 85mm field of view?

Thanks,

William
 
For auto thyristor flashes with auto zoom, do any/all of these type
flashes automatically adjust the photo cell sensor's field of view
to match the focal length of the camera/lens to determine what
light should be sensored? Or, is the field of view for the photo
cell sensor a set field of view, regardless of the focal length in
effect?
The only communication between the camera and the auto thryistor flashes, is just a pulse that says fire. Most of the flashes have a little slider switch that allows you to choose 2 or more pre-programmed settings that have different length/aperture settings.

For example, on my Kalimar 175A flash, if I set the control to the blue setting, and set the ISO to 100, the flash indicates to use f/5.6 and has a range of 3-15 feet (with a shutter speed of 1/125 second). If I set it to the red setting, the f/stop is f/2.8, and the range is 10-30 feet.
If the sensor's field of view is non-adjustable, or if the flash is
a non-zoom flash (fixed angle of coverage), what is the field of
view for the photo cell sensor? Is it wide, such as 28mm/35mm field
of view? Is it medium, such as a 50mm field of view? Or, is it
narrow, such as a 85mm field of view?
Some flashes have a manual zoom (TTL flashes might have an automatic zoom) that you can adjust the field of view and/or have a diffuser to make the flash wider. Otherwise, the FOV is usually on the order of 28mm.
 
For auto thyristor flashes with auto zoom, do any/all of these type
flashes automatically adjust the photo cell sensor's field of view
to match the focal length of the camera/lens to determine what
light should be sensored?
No. There is no field of view change in the sensor.
Or, is the field of view for the photo
cell sensor a set field of view, regardless of the focal length in
effect?
Yes. It remains the same.
If the sensor's field of view is non-adjustable, or if the flash is
a non-zoom flash (fixed angle of coverage), what is the field of
view for the photo cell sensor? Is it wide, such as 28mm/35mm field
of view? Is it medium, such as a 50mm field of view? Or, is it
narrow, such as a 85mm field of view?
I don't know the answer, but if I did know, it would be virtually worthless information. Thyristors work so marvelously well in most situations. There is no pre-flash, and they are relatively cheap in comparison to TTL models. I've always used thyristor flash and have no reason to spend the money for a TTL model.

Regards,
Stanton
 
I don't know the answer, but if I did know, it would be virtually
worthless information. Thyristors work so marvelously well in most
situations. There is no pre-flash, and they are relatively cheap in
comparison to TTL models. I've always used thyristor flash and
have no reason to spend the money for a TTL model.

Regards,
Stanton
Stanton - You sound as though you are a general photographer with years of experience, and take photos in all types of environments. Thus, you must take or have taken photos of indoor sports, where subject distances are constantly changing. Sometimes, the shots may be semi-wide angle; whereas, other shots may require a longer focal length, and when doing so may bypass other subjects which otherwise would be in the field of view of the camera's lens.

I'm sure indoor action photographers, as well as myself, would like to hear what techniques you use with auto thyristor flashes for varying subject distance situations.

William
 
Stanton - You sound as though you are a general photographer with
years of experience, and take photos in all types of environments.
Only going on 20 years... Still learning.
Thus, you must take or have taken photos of indoor sports, where
subject distances are constantly changing.
Honestly, of all the assignments I've handled, indoor sports is the one that I have the least experience in, though I have done a bit . Most recently I shot some hockey pix, but "indoor sports" can mean a lot of different things. Indoor soccer will probably require a different approach than gymnastics or martial arts.
Sometimes, the shots
may be semi-wide angle; whereas, other shots may require a longer
focal length, and when doing so may bypass other subjects which
otherwise would be in the field of view of the camera's lens.

I'm sure indoor action photographers, as well as myself, would like
to hear what techniques you use with auto thyristor flashes for
varying subject distance situations.
To really do indoor sports (hockey, basketball) correctly, you need to have flash heads with a gazillon watt seconds in the corners and in the rafters of the stadium with multichannel radio triggers. Few of us have the luxury of such equipment nor the blessing of stadium management to set it all up.

To use the hockey shoot as an example, I don't use flash at all. I use a long, fast zoom on a monopod. I had my D1x on ISO 800, my f stop wide open (2.8), WB on auto, and exposure mode set to aperture priority. I figured that whatever I got would be better than flash on camera. Though on-camera strobe might provide basic illumination, it will not provide a sense of shape and texture. Light eminating from the camera postion will put all the shadows on the far size of the subject. Sometimes its better than nothing, but flash on camera is far from my first choice for any type of photography. Though weddings are no longer the mainstay of my photography business, even then almost everything was lit with no less than two, and sometimes three and even four lights!

However, if you're going to use flash on camera, the main thing to be concerned with is the "carrying power" of the strobe. Will the strobe have enough power to provide enough exposure at the subject's distance from the camera? If its within range of a given thyristor setting, most of the time I'll just set the camera and blast. Though not perfect, with film the thyristor settings almost always put me in printable range. If things are more critical, I'll actually go totally manual and use distance "zones". . Hockey and soccer are much tougher to determine where the action will happen, so using zone settings is tough. Again, if you have no choice but to use flash on camera, make certain you have enough power, combined with ISO and aperture to get good exposure.

A lot of what works is simply a matter of trial and error. If you're fortunate enough to be shooting digital, you have a leg up because you can check and verify your exposures. Negative film usually has enough latitude that you can get in the ballpark and print acceptable images. Exposing for chromes is the toughest photographic medium (IMO) because it has less latitude than negs.

I know I've been rambling and not sure if I answered your question. Let me know if I need to elaborate further. I'll just shut up now and let some more experienced sports photographers answer now.

Good luck,
Stanton
 
I don't think anyone has answered your question. Thyristor circuitry is an energy saving device in an automatic flash. When an auto flash cuts off the power at just the right time, it can either dump the excess voltage (wasteful) or store it for the next flash. Since the thyristor circuit saves that voltage you have much faster recyle times. In non-thyrister auto flashes it doesn't matter how much light you used because all the energy is wasted and the capacitor has to charge up from scratch. This is the only difference between the Thyristor and other "auto" flashes unless the others use energy saving circuitry of another name. TTL/ETTL etc. describes where the flash is sensed (Through The Lens as opposed to a sensor on the flash) and has nothing to do with being thyristor.
I'm just curious--would someone give a relatively simple
explanation of thyristor flashes vs. others. I've google searched,
searched on this forum and this site. I get lots of links to
flashes that ARE thyristor--but I use TTL/ETTL flashes and would
like to understand thyristor also. I don't use a great deal of
flash--mostly shoot with available light, but for the commercial
work I do--I use flash (but do like the results with ETTL).
Nonetheless, I would like this information to add to my own
personal knowledge base smile

Thanks for any information or links to sites with good explanations.
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
"None of the current Sunpak flashes have the ability to adjust the angle of
view of the auto sensor. The coverage is equivalent to a 28mm lens.

Thank you,

Marc H. Heller
Marketing Product Manager
ToCAD America, Inc."

I'm always of the opinion an existing technology can be improved. Since most/all digital cameras cannot provide "real time" TTL, then an alternate possibility to pre-flash TTL might be auto thyristor flashes with adjustable auto sensors which come close to simulating area metering and spot metering found in cameras, along with the ability to meter what the lens is seeing; i.e., I believe many dedicated-flash cameras are providing focal length information to the flash.

You are welcome to disagree by saying no improvements are needed; however, if you have any "theoretical" ideas as to how Auto Thyristor flashes could be improved, I would be interested in hearing from you, even if future models are "out of our hands".

William
 
I meant to post Sunpak's response here, rather than above as a reply to any previous responses:

"None of the current Sunpak flashes have the ability to adjust the angle of
view of the auto sensor. The coverage is equivalent to a 28mm lens.

Thank you,

Marc H. Heller
Marketing Product Manager
ToCAD America, Inc."

I'm always of the opinion an existing technology can be improved. Since most/all digital cameras cannot provide "real time" TTL, then an alternate possibility to pre-flash TTL might be auto thyristor flashes with adjustable auto sensors which come close to simulating area metering and spot metering found in cameras, along with the ability to meter what the lens is seeing; i.e., I believe many dedicated-flash cameras are providing focal length information to the flash.

You are welcome to disagree by saying no improvements are needed; however, if you have any "theoretical" ideas as to how Auto Thyristor flashes could be improved, I would be interested in hearing from you, even if future models are "out of our hands".

William
 
Third time is a charm?

"None of the current Sunpak flashes have the ability to adjust the angle of
view of the auto sensor. The coverage is equivalent to a 28mm lens.

Thank you,

Marc H. Heller
Marketing Product Manager
ToCAD America, Inc."

I'm always of the opinion an existing technology can be improved. Since most/all digital cameras cannot provide "real time" TTL, then an alternate possibility to pre-flash TTL might be auto thyristor flashes with adjustable auto sensors which come close to simulating area metering and spot metering found in cameras, along with the ability to meter what the lens is seeing; i.e., I believe many dedicated-flash cameras are providing focal length information to the flash.

You are welcome to disagree by saying no improvements are needed; however, if you have any "theoretical" ideas as to how Auto Thyristor flashes could be improved, I would be interested in hearing from you, even if future models are "out of our hands".

William
 
I basically had come to the same conclusion, especially with the problem about uneven lighting when capturing several players on the field/court using a flash.

I am going to try your suggestion first. I will try using high ISO setting and wide open aperture (f3.5 is widest when my Minolta Dimage 7i focal length is greater than 50mm), and see how much noise has to be reduced by post processing.

Otherwise, there does not appear to be any easy or automatic method of changing subject distance when using an auto thyristor flash with a digital camera.

I am using a Sunpak PZ5000AF with my Minolta Dimage 7i camera. The camera has continous focusing, but as you know, the camera cannot calculate the proper aperture for the Sunpak Flash. If the flash is set to Aperture mode, the aperture must be manually changed on the flash; however, if the flash is set to Manual mode, the aperture setting on the flash will folow the camera's aperture.

Until I do further testing, I would prefer to leave the shutter speed constant when using flash; e.g., 1/30 or 1/60. Hopefully, the ambient lighting will appear the same regardless of focal length, and the flash will stop the action. Since the camera cannot determine correct aperture, this means the camera will have to be in manual mode.

I guess the best I can do is pre-determine and memorize which aperture to use on various spots of the field/court. Hopefully, I can learn to change the aperture while following the action and changing focal lengths. If this proves difficult/impossible, I guess I will do what many photographers do .... wait for the action to come to me.

However, I am definitely going to try your high ISO suggestion first.

Thanks for your informative response,

William
 

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