Interesting visit to Samy's Camera...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Raist3d
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I have been there many times.. and the one in Orange County too. Used to pass by it on the way to work in Irvine. I have bought and rented equipment from the one in the OC. They had Oly... a little here and there.

Yeah, I totally get your context. It is a "they used to now they don't, so Olympus is not selling any cameras.." Whatever. I loved Tropicana Orangeaid. Used to buy it all the time.. non-carbonated and refreashing it was. My store stopped stocking it because it did not sell as well as the diet version. Tropicana may not make it anymore, I don't know. I have moved on.. because that is just what you do.

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Visualize Whirled Peas.
 
All marketing effort has been for the PENs and they did great stuff.

They are commited to the PENs, that is no surprise and the sales have show this.

Even my local news station did a travel segment that stared the PENs as the travel camera to have.

There E-5 is similar to anchor products for car manufactures, they what to show off some exotic car but they really want to sell econo boxes because that is where the money is.

standard 4/3 will make live on a niche unless the m43 sales are such that there is no reason to keep 4/3 at all.
thats the case
something like mass market Pen requires advertising, especially at introduction

E5 is a more serious consideration for photographers that are already plugged into 4/3rds and will have discovered it for themselves

E5 doesnt seem intended to be pushed by marketing at all, nonetheless there appear to be issues with supply, i guess theres a reason for that

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Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
I went to PhotoMark in Phoenix to see what Olympus gear they had (just wanted to play with an E5), and the short answer was, "if you want it, we can special order it." There was essentially no new Olympus gear in the store. However - and maybe they wanted to reduce inventory for tax season - the store had less of almost everything. Not sure what's going on there.

The comments of Mr Terada are now being reflected on the shelves of brick-and-mortar stores in the U.S. The E5 not only wasn't designed for people new to Oly, it's not practically an option for about 80% of current Oly users . . . too expensive. The good news is that the other 20% is buying them like hotcakes.

Olympus's market focus is the Eastern Hemisphere, and that market wants the PENs. And on a worldwide basis - and I include the US here - they are selling very well, even in big box stores like BestBuy that didn't traditionally sell Olympus. If we want Olympus Imaging to hang around another five years, it's important that the m4/3s concept sell very well to the general public.

I do think at some point, a larger MILC on the order of a 620 will appear that will accept current non-CDAF lenses 4/3s lenses. I suspect the concept of a hybrid phase detect/CDAF system is a high engineering priority. However, right now, the market focus is on the next iteration of m4/3s bodies/glass: semi-pro build, Epson EVF, and HG-level m4/3s lenses. So, that's what we're going to see.
 
The pens are moving...
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
OK so u know I committed a faux pas a while back by gloating over a stained sensor problem with the Pentax K-5. Upon realizing how negative and hurtful my attempt at humor was in drawing attention to this Pentax QC issue, I apologized and backed completely off.

Meanwhile, you have continued your assault on all things Oly with a one-track mind. Now here you post your "interesting" visit to a camera store which has no E-5 on display. Now tell me, sir - what is the difference between what you are doing and what I apologized for? WHY is it your mission to kill the 4:3 system? I am beginning to think for the first time that I'm dealing with a PAID attack dog.

It is not, unless you are a paid attack dog, your job in life to tell us Olympus users what idiots we are and I am SICK of it. I really wish you would just go over to the Pentax forum, put a smile on your face and be positive. LEAVE US POOR IGNORANT SLOBS ALONE.
So asked to see if the E-5 was around in my favorite Samy's I used to buy. Nope, special order only . There wasn't much 4/3rds anymore but micro four thirds was there. I was told that the E-5 doesn't move pretty much at all, but the Pen does and Olympus pushes the Pen, not the E-5.

The Pentax selection was also pretty limited there.

Went to the super Imperial Cruise class Samy's then - the one in the center of LA. They had a display model of the E-5... pretty much what I remembered the last time I saw it.. took a couple of shots. No particular revelations for noise except depending on the high contrast and where there was light, you could see some extra detail at high iso while the blacks and mid tones to dark went to the noise mix I expect from cameras sharing the same sensor.

Anyhow, I asked around and they told me that the E-5 barely sells, but the Pens are selling pretty well. Now, this is the 'Death star" Samy's. One of the biggest stores of cameras in all Los Angeles ( four stories, they even sell all the Epson Printers, Macs, Medium and Large format film and digital ).

They had more Pentax stuff but they didn't have much either.

The Pens were again, pretty well represented. It's almost like they were slowly getting rid of 4/3rds stock, and moving to all micro four thirds.

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
Not sure I'd say the trolls killed 4/3 but I generally agree with much of what you said. The 4/3 system has some inherent advantages and some inherent disadvantages. And there do seem to be many users of more popular cameras who have trashed 4/3 without ever considering any of the advantages and probably without ever looking at any of the images produced by 4/3 cameras. I purchased an e620 after really comparing with cameras like the T1i and D5000. I read reviews, I read user reviews, I downladed and printed many images from different cameras. I even had my wife do blined comparisons of which images she liked best. I knew there were some limitations in the system but I felt the strengths outweighed the limitations. I've really liked the camera. When I made the purchase there was, to the best of my knowledge, only 1 store within an hours drive that had any 4/3 stock available. You certainly couldn't find it at the big box chain stores that are so pervasive today. The one store where I found an e620 was surprised that I was considering it and they certainly weren't pushing it. In effect, I basically had to go out of my way to buy an e620 rather than Canon, Nikon, or Sony. To me the real problem was that the 4/3 cameras really never got out there on floor displays where folks looking for their first dSLR ever really saw them. If you hadn't used Olympus film SLRs or known of their history with making outstanding lenses, you probably just weren't ever going to really consider the 4/3 system. Years ago when there were lots of individually owned camera stores the owners knew cameras. Now, the folks selling cameras are kids who know little other than how many mps a camera offers. The other day I picked up an NEX at a big box store, a kid walked by and said "that's a great camera." I asked what made it a great camera? To which he had no reply. And it became kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- 4/3 cameras don't sell because they aren't on the shelves, and they aren't on the shelves because they don't sell.
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http://www.bjaphotos.smugmug.com
 
There are only two real camera stores. I'm not including Ritz, etc. So, I agree, it's a vanishing breed. Really unfortunate, but the internet, combined with this ugly world-wide recession has just been lethal to a whole lot of brick-and-mortar retailers.
 
that the handful of people that frequent this forum and DP's review has any impact whatsoever on Oly sales?

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'Landscape photography is the supreme test of the photographer - and often the supreme disappointment. '
  • Ansel Adams
 
...how sheep-like American consumers are. in other countries it seems consumers are more open minded about brands. here you really have to beat them about the head with marketing to get them to wake up.
I do not think there is so big difference between America's nad Europe's buyers, for instance. IMHO you obviously confused a difference between consumer and customer ;)

Well, I'm not a native English speaker, but still...
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Petr
Zenfolio gallery at http://medsved.net
 
There are brick and mortar camera stores!? ;)
Yes, there are some :)

For instance I heard about one in Pittsburgh. I sent them a question using they contact form on their web page. They did not bother to answer. Then I did not bother to visit them and ordered lenses from Amazon...

Or back in our country. I visited a store in Gothenburg and asked for Manfrotto positioning plate. They had no one in stock - sorry- but they told me they will order for me anything what I find myself on internet. They did not bother to help to find it - they instead adviced me to visit their PC department, use one of their PC on display to find my plate then return to Photo dept. to tell them the appropriate part number... Crazzy???

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Petr
Zenfolio gallery at http://medsved.net
 
The E-620 was well represented in the camera stores in our CBD. I have no longer seen it. Micro is around though. E-5 is there - but its dwarfed by everything else. Its an expensive choice for a platform that provides no lesser or greater choice.

As far as the criticisms of Olympus's marketing, I think that is simply a function of economy of scale. For instance, the E-PL1 is selling in Japan at around 6% of the removable lens market. That puts it in around 7th place. Compared to for instance the Canon 550D or the Nikon D90, 6% us a lot less volume than those cameras, who have had over 20% of the market. We know that Nikon and Canon combined, have had over 80% of the market. So each brand is around 40%. 40% divided by 6%, is one seventh of the market. And incidentally, the sales of E-5s, E-P2s are minimal compared to the E-PL1 and soon E-PL2. So ... the Canon and Nikon market share, is 7 times greater, and also their cameras cost more than the E-PL1s do.

So Nikon and Canon have probably 10 times as much money to spend on marketing. Hence - Oly is suffering from a competitive economy of scale disadvantage.

How can they recover from that? One way is by product differentiation. They started with the E-1, which was digital, cleaning sensor and weatherproof. They followed with live view, IBIS (although Minolta started that), lens quality, compactness and software innovations.

Now, the competition has caught up with those innovations. Hence Oly can no longer differentiate its product.

Q: Faced with a lack of economy of scale, and loosing its differentiated status, what can Oly do?
A: Micro Four Thirds

And with the level of entrance by lens makers into MFT, such as Schnieder, Zeiss in the last few days and several others recently, its clear that mFT has a future. Also MFT is cheaper to build than a reflex camera (due to the optics and mechanical extra bits that an MFT does not require). So if mFT can sell at higher prices than entry DSLRs, and be cheaper to make, that spells a competitive dis-advatnage for DSLR. Hence but for mFT, Olympus would likely have gone out of business. Just as Pentax failed economically, the same future awaited Olympus in Four Thirds. So the E-5 is there as an act of faith for those with stocks of FT lenses. The future for the FT DSLR platform is shaky at best IMO.
 
If you read carefully I even said Pentax. Didn't look strong at all either. Reporting a truths not making fun of somebody the pens ate selling- good for Olympus and us 4/3 glass owners. A body supporting the lenses should come out.
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
Same all same all, Raist3D coming from nowhere, bashing Olympus 4/3. I'm not saying what he says is not true, I'm just asking myself why it seems that his only job in this world is to bash Olympus. I really really hate some things, but I still don't spend my time on the forum bashing those things non-stop. He clearly is starting some threads only for that purpose, and that is at least weird.
 
You raise an interesting point about supply and demand. Sometimes we assume that short supply means high demand. But this may not be the case.

Are cameras made continuiously, or are they made in batches?

I think very popular cameras, like the Canon and Nikon entry level DSLRs are probably made continuiously.

And eveything else is made in batches, based on market projections. So when a batch sells out, then another batch is ordered, just like when a book goes into it's second printing.

And if too many are made, then the camera must be heavily discounted to move them before they get too old, and eclipsed by competitor's newer models.

I often wonder if those great prices on E520 two lens kits (sold for under $500 here in the USA) were the result of Olympus intentionally trying to build market share.... or simply having run way too many for the market.

In the case of the E5, I really believe this camera was designed to be very profitable, and as a result the price was set high, and it will be produced in very small batches to avoid much discounting.

Incidentally, this is probably the way all high end cameras are run. Including those from Canon and Nikon. The top models aren't sitting on shelves in Walmart. They are special order items.

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Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
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Olympus E-30
Olympus E-P1

 
That accords with what I have read. Olympus focus on the home market (Japan), then neighbouring countries (lately this has meant the PRC, where the consumer growth dwarfs every other market) and also consider Europe.

Europe probably gets consideration because at least some of the people there (well, the Germans, basically) like their focus on excellent lenses and high build quality.

The USA isn't so important to them, and when you consider that the profit margins must be tiny there is little incentive to really try to develop it. Australasia is so small that they probably don't really even consider us (twenty-two million people in Australia, less than five million in NZ, and less than a million spread out over the rest of the South Pacific).
 
Re the complaints on the marketing, or lack of, for the E-5. Well, it makes no sense to market a $1700 camera that does not have the sort of consumer innovation that causes one to switch brands. It's a camera that is met with a shrug.

And the retailers care zero, or close to zero, about the E-5. It takes up valuable space from cameras that will actually sell to a lot of people walking in the door.

So, Oly places their marketing on the Pens. And the Pens are selling. So, despite the sadness, doesn't pushing the Pens make sense? And if that's all the retailers want from Oly, then marketing the Pens is a win-win-win for the stores, new consumers, and Oly.

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Roberthd12
 
You raise an interesting point about supply and demand. Sometimes we assume that short supply means high demand. But this may not be the case.
sort of true, what it really means is that demand is higher than anticipated and the pipeline cant cope with the throughput. Expect prices not to fall in that circumstance.
Are cameras made continuiously, or are they made in batches?
Olympus are batch producers. Batch producers have smaller plant and have to setup for each new camera. Its helpful if models are quite similar such as 410-510, 420-520, then the parts bins inventory management and setups are easier to adjust.

Batch producers live and die on their capacity to change the line quickly as all this time is downtime and have to have what is termed 'island' warehousing, where the volume of packaged cameras are stored sometimes near the factory, sometimes in forward warehousing ready for deployment to sales agencies. Batch production is cheaper and more efficient but requires more adept better trained workers

The former is more popular as warehousing is very expensive, where packaging and storing can cost 40% of product costs. The keyword for batch producers is flexibility, an ability to respond to market forces with products that have an implied 'newness' that are ultimately more expensive than the alternative.
I think very popular cameras, like the Canon and Nikon entry level DSLRs are probably made continuiously.
theyre volume producers. The line is specifically designed for one camera and may take weeks to change completely. Their cameras tend to have longer production runs in terms of years and are hyper designed for manufacture where speed of assembly is vital.

Volume producers must have advanced logistical pipelines as the volume is so great they cannot store it on site, the throughput must simply be kept moving. Another feature of volume producers is their capacity isnt very adjustable, theres usually 10% or so in tweaking, if market controls dictate that production must slow down more than 10% they have to axe a shift as a form of control.

Although the workers are lesser trained its a big call to let them go b/se when they need to start up full scale operations again it will take months to get the plant fully online to its design efficiency. Plant stoppages, labour issues, problems with component supply, logistical management and changes in market forces are keynote hassles for volume producers. Their products live on ultimately lower pricing and a certain 'sameness' or consistency.

to be continued

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Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
continued
And eveything else is made in batches, based on market projections. So when a batch sells out, then another batch is ordered, just like when a book goes into it's second printing.
thats fine if you have the line runtime available on the program, it would be possible to change the plant over for a month or so to produce more volume of an existing design but they could just as easily make some changes to the model with little downside. Batch producers have that adaptability at hand where volume producers OTOH could never do that as the line runtimes usually extend into years, sometimes (ideally) an entire plant is designed to produce 1 item.

see batch producers as short run, higher cost, newer product, and volume producers as long run, lower cost, older product and you wont go far wrong. Not always the case but thats business
And if too many are made, then the camera must be heavily discounted to move them before they get too old, and eclipsed by competitor's newer models.
for volume producers this seems essential, however the reality is the older product wont be so very different from the newer one, and customers will decide the slightly downscale spec is more desirable given a lower pricing point. This was exactly the position of 40D vs 50D.

When two or 3 issues collide though, say market conditions have lapsed, too much volume is online and management are reluctant to turn down the tap due to the cost of doing so b/se they predict this market condition will be short and they can ride it out, then the old stuff just has to go. Fire-sale time means its costwise better to ditch a product completely rather than suffer the additional costs of warehousing, likely in more forward locations closer to the point of sale.

Dependent on inventory management, batch producers have more capacity to deal with issues such as this as they have already sourced more cost efficient on site warehousing and have more buffer in their system, to a point. Volume producers tend to adjust the flow of product based on price, lower the price, make a package deal, to stimulate sales, offer free underwear or a new car with each product :)
I often wonder if those great prices on E520 two lens kits (sold for under $500 here in the USA) were the result of Olympus intentionally trying to build market share.... or simply having run way too many for the market.
Im sure that happens, but for Oly this second generation 'tweaked' product would be a whole lot cheaper to engineer and facilitate, and it can simply slide right into the existing logistic chain pioneered by 410 / 510. If costs are way down you can push for better market position which will have a tendency to reflect on your marketing futures. Certainly in Europe (actually Im thinking Germany) this worked very well for them
In the case of the E5, I really believe this camera was designed to be very profitable, and as a result the price was set high, and it will be produced in very small batches to avoid much discounting.
Reflecting on R&D costs that are likely to be very low (in comparison to E3) and parts commonality with Pen is high, the costs point to a very efficient design / manufacture operation while OTOH pricing seems stagnant guaranteeing higher profit. The tweaked E3 (just as 420 / 520 where) turns out to be so far a better camera that the market is less inhibited in picking it up (despite not exactly rave reviews).

Hard not to notice that the marketing for E5 was more viral, and low end, the whole thing fits together as a designed plan and I expect this product to sit it out for sometime, much like E3 did.
Incidentally, this is probably the way all high end cameras are run. Including those from Canon and Nikon. The top models aren't sitting on shelves in Walmart. They are special order items.
We should suspect that higher order cameras are not managed in the same way, and are not likely to be marketed to B grade (but high volume) facilities anyway. A 1Ds IX just isnt wallmarts bag sot they just set up an order facility and leave the shelf space for stuff that turns over quickly

Two appreciably different markets are handled in almost opposite ways. Pen simply must be onsite to be seen and handled with its accessories, and staff are trained to manage / assist that process. E5 OTOH is usually more of a known quantity and the customer more familiar with the gear, actually quite difficult to supply and market compared with by far more scaled down Pen.

With the variability of volume you could expect that E5 wont be on the shelf, or staff will be less familiar with it, rather like a Wallmart assistant trying to sell an M9. Thats why the fascinations of some here, who go to great lengths to figure out the weaknesses in the product plainly have no idea what is involved, I dont hesitate to use the word 'clueless' second time around. Expecting there to be no difference flogging a SAAB vs a Chevy is really just to silly for words, same people will insist they are right to go with it

Its certainly more desirable to have product on offer in a tangible way, but with E5 in particular in circumstances of high demand for throughput, Olympus will be tempted to strangle supply a bit and stay with the plan, keep pricing high, and let the 'maybe' customers sort themselves out in time, and if the cost of that is a few immediate sales, the calculated downside will be less than the cost of adequately servicing the market demands. Straight forward cost / profit calculation, it seems E5 exists for a different purpose than Pen does, and thats how it pans out.

If things really get out of whack, they (as batch producers) are more able to do something about it and adjust the supply chain sufficiently to make the best of the situation. I think it highly unlikely a volume producer would even consider doing the same thing.

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 

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