Full frame?

[galenbrown]

Because it is clear you know very little about economics and have not bothered to get your "facts" from any kind of reputable source. Sorry to be off topic, but "money has devalued 300-400%" ??????? What? Check your math and try again. You're off by a magnitude of about 100.

 

[rrcphoto]

There are some brands who try hard to do this.
It's funny to see so many reactions to defend the price policy of
Canon and others.
I notice that in less than 10 years time the value of money has
devaluated for 300 to 400%.
And people just accept it.
The EOS 1V was about 2300 euro. The latest EOS1D Mark III is about
8000 euro.

a pro would use the 1V and go through in the order of say .. 1000 rolls of film a year. the film and processing costs for a pro would be in the order of 15 to 20,000 per year. (i know alot of pros that went through alot more ..but this is just an example).

a DsIII costs 8,000, a computer 1,000 - a printer 1,000. not including running the film in, picking it up, a pro can now develop, print and distribute photos in a matter of moments versus hours or days. the ROI on such a system is 8 months for a pro - that's nothing. zippo. laughably quick.

So for a pro - digital savings both time and over the lifespan of the body far far more than the investment of a mere 10K.

so when looking at the overall picture (literally), the average pro is well within their economics to pay 8K for a camera body.

however, for us pros that don't make that much (me included), a 2 or 3K body is again well attainable - if again you look at the entire economics of coming from film. it starts to be a no brainer once you include everything - and to be blunt and honest - you can print at least twice as large on digital as you can on any 35mm slide film.

so again I ask you - how many rolls do you go through in a year? if you are going through more than 150, then the ROI on a digital camera for you is around 1 year's time.

If you're not a pro - and just doing this for fun, then get whatever camera you can afford, and get one more lens to compensate for the UWA if it's a cropped body. your other glass will work great.

it's really not that hard, but the amount of electronics, R&D and development does cost money - and as they say, there isn't a free lunch.

 

[brightcolours]

Out of date? Since when is a 12.7MP full frame camera with great IQ out of date?

Man, Nikon will not want to hear this, with their 12mp FF D3 and D700 launched not long ago!

You say you want affordable full frame, and it is here and now. And the EOS 5D is truly a lovely camera.

 

[brightcolours]

In the Netherlands you can find the EOS 5D for around €1500. And do not compare with prices in America (they are advertised without tax for instance).

€1497:
http://www.cameranu.nl/artikel/1117
€1525:
http://www.kamera-express.nl/index.php?page=product&product=733

 

[brightcolours]

Or... do you know any other camera manufacturer which continuously tried to offer full frame cameras for pros?

puzzled

And that EOS 1 series... did it need a powerful state of the art computer inside? Did need a state of the art BIG slap of photo sensitive silicon inside? And... what has the inflation been like?
Do you refuse to but VW Golfs too, because they have gone up in price?

If you are just a troll, stop trolling. If you are just a confused old man, get your ideas straight, and realize that it is silly to compare a decade old camera with a state of the art one.

 

[Awesomejt]

You can always get a used 5D, especially if rumors are true about a soon-to-be released update (5DmarkII).

BTW, I can find a "new" 5D for about $1800 online -- which is only about $400 more than the 50D when it arrives. Which is cheaper than buying a 10-24mm lens to make up the difference.

Personally, I'm fine with it except for the increasing pixel density concerns. I'm sure eventually Canon (and others) will have to go with a bigger sensor to accomplish more megapixels. Although at 12-15 MP, I'll be happy for a while.
--
Obligatory Signature

 

[Brian D. Schneider]

There are some brands who try hard to do this.
It's funny to see so many reactions to defend the price policy of
Canon and others.
I notice that in less than 10 years time the value of money has
devaluated for 300 to 400%.
And people just accept it.
The EOS 1V was about 2300 euro. The latest EOS1D Mark III is about
8000 euro.
All this in less than 10 years time.

--Do you remembrer what a DSLR cost 10 years ago? like $30,000. $8000 for a better camera doesnt sound so bad now huh?
Brian Schneider

 

[klmmicro]

If i have to change again drastically like in the days from FD to EF
and now to EF-S or whatever, I prefer to change to a more reliable
brand. One that protects my investments on the long term.

--And which brand would that be?

Why, that would be Hasselblad of course!
--
Having fun taking pictures. Tuning my eye and my style.

 

[Albert de Bruijn]

I don't want to buy a lens like 10-22 witch don't fit on my normal
analog camara. Also I don't want to pay again for something I had.
Canon has to protect my investment. I had to change from FD to EF
already. Now I have to change to EF-S.

I don't understand your reasoning here???

Get a 30D/40D/50D and your investment in the 17-35mm L lens IS protected! It'll work just fine.

Get a 10-20 or 10-22 and you'll love it, why would you want to put it on an old camera? You want to fo forwards, not backwards. If you insist on all future products to fit your 10 year camera, you'll be VERY disappointed. However, it'll be YOUR loss, the world moves on.

AND, there is nothing wrong with a 5D. I recently bought one, upgraded from a 30D. Best thing I ever did. The images are SUPERB!

I sold my 30D and also sold my SIGMA 10-20mm for $10 less than I bought it two years ago. THAT's great investment protection.

--
Albert
http://www.albertdebruijn.com (now with free Lightroom presets)
http://albertdebruijn.zenfolio.com

 

[Oystein Soreide]

In Norway you can get a used 5D at just a little highter price than a new 40D. And that is quite affordable.

 

[Voyager13b]

Where is the insane devaluation of currency happening? Not here in the USA where I live. I currently own and use a wide variety of SLR bodies, including a New F1, T90, EOS 1V HS, 30D, 40D, and I'm waiting on a 50D from Amazon. The "most expensive" (considering income at the time) camera I ever bought was the F1 when it was new. That was a bear to save for, and pushed my disposable income to the max limit. I saved for a year before I could bring it home.

Every camera since then has been less of a strain on my budget by a wide margin, and has offered huge gains in performance value. Consdering the specs of the 50D, and the $1399 price, it was a no brainer to hit the buy button, and before the month of waiting for shipment has passed, my budget will be very ready. In the "good old days", it took many, many months to save for a new camera body.

I lamented the passing of the FL, and FD lenses, and still have a nice set for my F1 and T90. When the EOS mount became my reality though, I quickly fell in love. It is the best mount design in the industry, and the glass is at least as good as ever, which is to say that it is the best overall (in my opinion). Over the years since I bought my first EOS 620, I have purchased a boatload of EOS glass, including many of the more popular L offerings. They are fantastic lenses.

I was always attracted to the APS-C sensor concept, and even though I bought an early 5D, the crop sensor cameras pleased me more overall. I concluded that they were here to stay early on, and despite the constant negative comments from the FF fantasy community, the crop cameras have become the real tech battleground, and deliver stunning performance in more photo possibilities than the imaginary cheap FF cameras could have done in their best dream scenario.

The bottom line is that you can have the awesome (and pretty cheap) power of a top end crop camera in your hand right now, while the fabled cheap FF camera is still just a fantasy. All of your EOS lenses will work just fine. Your L lenses will perform to their max ability. You can buy the few key EF-s lenses with confidence, as they are L quality lenses in every way that matters. I have the EF-s 10-22, the EF-s 17-55 f/2.8, and the EF-s 60 f/2.8 macro. That's all you really need to round out a crop camera at the short end, and they perform in classic L fashion.

I like my crop cameras. I like my EF-s lenses, and all of my "normal" EOS glass deliver their best on a crop body. There might be a day when the phantom cheap FF camera becomes a reality, but in the meantime, I will continue the several year run of accepting the crop camera, and having the right glass for the job at hand, as opposed to making excuses about not being able to get a shot because of a bag full of red ring glass waiting for a camera that might never be offered.

--
Voyager

 

[jp52637]

--
cameras don't shoot people
People shoot people.

 

[Bernie Ess]

You find 1500$ affordable for something that is 3 year old and
completely out of date.

"Completely out of date"? The image quality of the 5d is quite good, and on par with the competition from Nikon (d700) which starts at recently 2600 Euro.

If you cannot afford a slightly used 5d for roughly 1000-1200 Euro, stick with FF for the next years.

And: Following your arguments, any camera is "outdated" after 3 years. It just doesn't matter for the quality of your photographs.

Bernie

 

[Prentjesmaker]

And your happy with the devalutaion of you money of more than 400% in the last 10 years?

 

[brightcolours]

Explain to me what Canon has to do with inflation.

You started this silly thread saying you wanted to have an affordable full frame DSLR.
IT IS HERE.

Canon did NOT cause inflation, nor did Canon have any influence on how the computer and digital camera market has developed. They got in late, and they just try to compete.

Do you refuse to buy any car too? Since you are not happy they went up in price over the years?

 

[mermaidkiller]

When will we have a payable fullframe?
I have a set of expensive L lenzes one of them is the 17-35mm. I
would like to have my large wide angle back. Currently I am still
using my EOS 3 analog for this purpose. The 5d was way to expensive
to my sense. When will Canon and others stop selling this stupid
APS-C format. I want to stay compatible with my investments of years
ago.

Can Canon provide us a normal price fullframe camera.
The slogan of Canon was somthing like yes you can.

Yes , the EOS 5 already for three years for $1500 / EUR 1500, far lower than it used to be.
And you can use your $$$ L glass on a stupid APS-C cam.

I have a 40d and am very happy with it as a successor for the 22 year old FFF (Full Film Frame) T90 with even an incompatible FD mount.

FF IS expensive, the D700 costs $2500 and the new EOS 5 will be about the same price.
I notice that APS-C in the semi-pro class is at least as good as film.

When the EOS 5 / d700 is too expensive, buy an EOS 50 (extensively discussed here !) , prices are now around $1100 but will lower ... and use your 17-35 as a bright 'standard zoom'. When you need real wide angle (17mm for FF is over 90 deg FOV), buy a Sigma 10-20mm (which I have and provides very good images for the $300) or a Canon 10-22mm which has 'L' quality.

 

[sparkling elk]

i agree. 10-22, 17-55 and 60mm is a super set for a crop cam. i still have the 30D. didnt want to upgrade to 40D, added L-primes instead, to work with DOF. the 35 becomes a 56mm 1.4 and the 135L becomes a 210 f2. look at the true 200L f2: it costs how much? now i reflect if i get the 50D (not because of resolution, but because of the AF) or if i buy the 85L and keep the 30D for a while.

 

[Alan from Sunny Isles Beach FL]

There are some brands who try hard to do this.
It's funny to see so many reactions to defend the price policy of
Canon and others.
I notice that in less than 10 years time the value of money has
devaluated for 300 to 400%.
And people just accept it.
The EOS 1V was about 2300 euro. The latest EOS1D Mark III is about
8000 euro.
All this in less than 10 years time.

Here's a CRAZY idea. F*!K Europe and the Euro and buy the EOS-1Ds Mk3 from the USA. Its USD $8000 here. Compared to your hyper-inflated phony-balony Euros thats about 30% (31% to be exact) cheaper. In Euro's the $8000 USD would be 5,521.43 EUR by today's exchange rate.

Also, one of your big issues is that Canon needs to protect your investment in an L lens. You mentioned you have a 17-35mm L. That lens has been replaced since you bought it, TWICE. First, by the 16-35mm L and then by the 16-35mm L II. Canon has no business protecting a product investment in a product they have improved upon - TWICE!. You just need to be less of a curmudgeonly old cheap fart and stop bitchin'.

I don't even have a single L lens, but I have LOTS of lenses. And the facts of life are that all products will get replaced eventually, and you will be forced to pay more money to update them. Wake up and smell the capitalism.

I have 4 FD lenses for my AE-1 Program that got handed down to me by my father when I was 12 or 13. It was bought in 1979, and the newest lens for it was bought in 1980 (I found the original warranty cards thats why I know the dates). Is Canon supposed to protect my father's investment in that gear? No, but I still use it, it still works great, I even use some of those lenses on my 40D from time to time. You're cheap and delusional, we get it. Just get over it or take the rant elsewhere.

-Alan

 

[KariP]

If you still have the same salary as 10-20 years it is not Canon ... it is your employer you have to blame.

Canon - like all existing business in this world is there to make profit - if not , they cease to exist and producing things . This is how market economy and capitalism works. In socialist countries they did not have these problems. The value of money did not sink ! But there was nothing to buy because almost nothing worth buying was produced - and no profit was made.

We still have the freedom not to buy a camera that is overpriced.

I personally see no reason to buy a FF body - the IQ increase is not worth the price.

My advice is : accept the facts of life&market economy , buy a APS-C body like 40-50D and a couple of good EF-S lenses , use you L-lenses too - and start taking good pictures.

And read the previous post by JimH
--
Kari
SLR photography for 40 years
60°15´N 24°03´ E

 

[neweossie]

Thought you'd get a 5D for the price of your 17/35. So the 5D should be affordable, no ?