Full Frame vs. APS-C

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Ken Rockwell has a discussion of full frame vs. APS-C sensors on this page:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm . Most of you have probably already seen it. He has examples that show the same picture having 3 times the sharpness with a full frame camera as opposed to a APS type camera. I have a little bit of difficulty with that. A full frame sensor doesn't even have twice the area of an APS-C sensor.

Is there really that much advantage to full frame?

Ralph
 
opposed to a APS type camera. I have a little bit of difficulty with
that. A full frame sensor doesn't even have twice the area of an
APS-C sensor.
As far as I know, full frame sensor (24mm x 36mm) does have twice the area of APS-C (23.7 x 15.7mm)
 
I guess I had the APS-H in mind (28.7 X 19) instead of the "C". My mistake, sorry.

Ralph
 
opposed to a APS type camera. I have a little bit of difficulty with
that. A full frame sensor doesn't even have twice the area of an
APS-C sensor.
As far as I know, full frame sensor (24mm x 36mm) does have twice the
area of APS-C (23.7 x 15.7mm)
Resolution is usually expressed in lines per mm (or, more generally, "features per length") and this measure corresponds with what one would perceive visually. So, with a given pixel size(* see note below) you would need twice the linear dimension, i.e., 4 times the area and 4 times the number of pixels, rather than twice the area, to get twice the resolution.

note: Factors being ignored, but which also matter, include:

Size of "circle of confusion" at best focus, which depends on diffraction as well as non-ideal lens imperfections.

Relationship between depth of field and angle of view (also indirectly related to the circle of confusion).

PS: The full-frame sensor has 2.32 times the area as APS-C, or 1.52 times the linear dimensions.
--
Thomas D. Shepard, Sc.D.
 
PS: The full-frame sensor has 2.32 times the area as APS-C, or 1.52
times the linear dimensions.
Other than the 1.52 gain in resolution, 2.32 times area reduce the power of noise by 2.32 through averaging. The reduction of noise might even cause more significant improvement in image quality.

There should be more additional factors, which combined together, providing such a great improvement.
 
Hi,

The next question to ask is will anyone notice?

I say this because most people were happy with APS when it was film and the pictures came off a roll of 4" paper. Going for the best in digital photography, or rather going for what is claimed to be best means spending a lot of money for very little real gain: unless you are a pro but this is the beginners' forum and beginners have different standards (and shallower pockets).

I still get good 32" x 24" prints from my old 5 megapixel 2/3" CCD based cameras and, other than holding the prints up to your nose as though you wanted to sniff the ink, you can't see anything wrong with them. This is because of the human eye's resolution, btw.

Regards, David
 
I still get good 32" x 24" prints from my old 5 megapixel 2/3" CCD
based cameras and, other than holding the prints up to your nose as
though you wanted to sniff the ink, you can't see anything wrong with
them. This is because of the human eye's resolution, btw.
You can only get a resolution of about 80dpi with 32" x 24" prints using 5 megapixel image. This is just about the same as old monitor, which everyone will notice the pixel by viewing from about 30cm.

This kind of resolution is acceptable for poster or banner printing which are meant to view from far. For publication, most will require at least 300dpi or the reader's eyes will be very tired. Some poorer quality publications use 150 dpi for color images and 300 dpi for text. The standard for photo printing is even higher - could be above 450 dpi.

I would say that for printing below 300dpi, using a cleaner image from old 5 megapixel 2/3" CCD camera is absolutely better than using a noisier image from new 10 megapixel 1/2.5" CCD camera which seems to be a trend today.

I can't notice much noise and the image still looks sharp when I printed the image from my old Canon S1 IS with only 150 dpi resolution. However, the noise is simply too obvious for viewing image from my new 8 megapixel 1/2.5" CCD camera at 150 dpi. The noise reduction is too agressive that I noticed a lot of artifacts. Don't want to mention the brand here.
 
If you would, take a look at the link in my first post. Mouse over the images and compare the shots taken with APS and Full Frame cameras. The APS looks sloppy and blurred. Most people claim their pics from their DSLR's are "tack sharp". Both cannot be true.

Still confused,
Ralph
 
At the link above, Ken Rockwell also claims that he can use a poor lens on a full frame camera and get better results than when he uses a first class lens on a APS type camera.

Is this true or do I hear my BS detector starting to go off.

Ralph
 
1st, Ken can take photos quite well but please do not read what he has to say. It usually needs to be taken with more than just a grain of salt.

2nd, FF vs APS is more complicated than it seems. FF does offer larger pixels. but then it is more demanding on glass. Did I mention cost? How about size?

If one is looking for the high ISO abilities of FF, save some money and get a small DSLR with the Sony 6MP sensor. The better ones are the Pentax models along with the discontinued Nikon D50. The Samsung GX1S needs to be added, since this is the same as the Pentax DS2.

If you want the higher ISO and high resolution, the D300 and Pentax K20D make a good case for APS.

Anyways, I am not worrying. My DS has a clean ISO 1600 and most of my lenses will work on FF. Samsung is hinting that they want to make an FF PK mount body. :-)
 
I still get good 32" x 24" prints from my old 5 megapixel 2/3" CCD
based cameras and, other than holding the prints up to your nose as
though you wanted to sniff the ink, you can't see anything wrong with
them. This is because of the human eye's resolution, btw.
You can only get a resolution of about 80dpi with 32" x 24" prints
using 5 megapixel image. This is just about the same as old monitor,
which everyone will notice the pixel by viewing from about 30cm.
Hi,

But who looks at a picture about a yard wide from under a foot away? If you notice that I said it was due to the eye's resolution, it might suggest that I know this but have ignored it as it doesn't happen. (It's like the well-known joke where the policeman tells the woman who complained that he couldn't see it and she said "Your not standing on the table with the binoculars"... Point made?)
This kind of resolution is acceptable for poster or banner printing
which are meant to view from far. For publication, most will require
at least 300dpi or the reader's eyes will be very tired. Some poorer
quality publications use 150 dpi for color images and 300 dpi for
text. The standard for photo printing is even higher - could be
above 450 dpi.
See above: but who can see 450 dpi or do you really mean ppi?
I would say that for printing below 300dpi, using a cleaner image
from old 5 megapixel 2/3" CCD camera is absolutely better than using
a noisier image from new 10 megapixel 1/2.5" CCD camera which seems
to be a trend today.

I can't notice much noise and the image still looks sharp when I
printed the image from my old Canon S1 IS with only 150 dpi
resolution. However, the noise is simply too obvious for viewing
image from my new 8 megapixel 1/2.5" CCD camera at 150 dpi. The
noise reduction is too agressive that I noticed a lot of artifacts.
I'll take your word for that I haven't a single Canon digital to speak of but one or two, or three even, full frame 35mm ones.

Several large firms of camera makers have stated that 3 mp is OK for A4 or that 150 ppi is OK for everyday photo printing. And when 5 mp came out they started talking about A3, which is why I did the 32" x 24" print. But people seldom notice things; I've A3 prints made from two sheets of A4 and glued together and no one has noticed with one exception and she was a professional designer. Others can't see the join when it is pointed out...

BTW, could be noise you were printing accurately in one and no noise in the other. To compare you need all the cameras together and then take the same subject with the same settings. Not easy at times.
Don't want to mention the brand here.
Pity: you might save others some money.

Regards, David
 
PS: The full-frame sensor has 2.32 times the area as APS-C, or 1.52
times the linear dimensions.
Other than the 1.52 gain in resolution, 2.32 times area reduce the
power of noise by 2.32 through averaging.
I'm not sure what you mean, but this sounds like a misconception.

For a typical solid-state sensor (or most any other conceivable technology) the statistical noise IN EACH PIXEL would be inversely proportional to the square root of the total photon fluence captured by the each pixel of the sensor during the exposure. ( see note below) That is, the standard deviation of the random fluctuation in charge in any collection of similarly exposed pixels, expressed as a percentage of the pixel charge, would be inversely proportional to the square root of the per-pixel photon fluence.

If you define the "noise" in terms of the "power spectrum," as is usually done in signal analysis, then you would square this number, eliminating that square root. Then this starts to look like what you said. ( but see notes below) However it is the area of the INDIVIDUAL PIXELS that matters, not the area of the detector.

So if you compare an APS-C and a full-size sensor, EACH OF WHICH HAS THE SAME NUMBER OF PIXELS, then what you say is true. But if each of those two sensors uses the same size pixels, then the noise level is the same for each sensor. (You could probably post-process the larger image to produce a lower-resolution, lower-noise image, though.)

The point is, that you have to trade off resolution for noise reduction. You don't get both just by going to a larger sensor.
The reduction of noise
might even cause more significant improvement in image quality.

There should be more additional factors, which combined together,
providing such a great improvement.
Notes: As if that weren't enough complexity, I glossed over some things:

1. The noise level is also temperature dependent. For a reverse-biased PN junction, there would be an exponential factor depending on the ratio between the absolute temperature and the bias voltage.

2. Noise comes from different sources. I think my discussion here applies equally to, for example, random statistical fluctuations in photon flux and noise due to external sources, such as ambient ionizing radiation that creates superfluous electron-hole pairs in the pixels.

3. Diffraction effects will be smaller for the larger sensor. Some types of lens aberrations would have sensor-size-dependent effects.

4. I'm not sure whether the actual pixel values that get stored in the image file are proportional to the pixel fluence or to the square of the fluence. I do know that it is NOT exponentially dependent on the fluence (which is related to the "expose to the right" rule for digital photography).

5. My discussion implicitly assumes that the effects of each photon event on a pixel are statistically independent. That assumption is good at low ISO but gets weak as ISO increases, basically because the arrival of one pixel changes the bias or charge on the detector element, which alters how it will respond to the next pixel that arrives. At very high ISO, there can even be cross-talk between adjacent pixels, leading to image "bleeding."

6. Sensors have pixels sensitive to each of the three primary colors. That fact alone doesn't affect my discussion, but also there is typically a different number of pixels for each of the primary colors.

7. Much of my discussion also applies to old-fashioned chemical photography.

8. What else did I forget?

--
Thomas D. Shepard, Sc.D.
 
PS: The full-frame sensor has 2.32 times the area as APS-C, or 1.52
times the linear dimensions.
Other than the 1.52 gain in resolution, 2.32 times area reduce the
power of noise by 2.32 through averaging.
I'm not sure what you mean, but this sounds like a misconception.
Thanks for pointing out my over simplification and generalization of the claim. It would be hard going too technical in forum. This claim obviously involve a lot of assumptions which includes but not limited to some you have pointed out, such as:

1. Same no. of total pixels in both sensor, which means the ratio of each pixels area is the same as the sensor area.

2. The fill factor is same for both sensor. (In reality, I believe the fill factor of full-frame is greater than APS-C if the external circuits take the same area for each pixel)
3. The noise is gaussian and independent among pixels. (which rarely true)

4. All other factors keep ideally the same. (including temperature, material characteristics and etc.)
 
See above: but who can see 450 dpi or do you really mean ppi?
Well, may be I should have use the word ppi instead of dpi as subpixel can also be consider as a dot.

I don't know the resolution of human eyes. But I definitely can see the jagginess from pixel to pixel about 45cm away from my 125 ppi LCD monitor. Try draw a straight line in photoshop without anti-aliasing and view with your monitor.

Anti-aliasing does increase our perceived resolution which makes printing colour image in 150 ppi still acceptable. But if your image is highly geometry, most ppl will notice the low resolution.
Several large firms of camera makers have stated that 3 mp is OK for
A4 or that 150 ppi is OK for everyday photo printing. And when 5 mp
came out they started talking about A3, which is why I did the 32" x
24" print.
That's why a lot of ppl said photo from film camera is a lot sharper than photo from digital camera in the old time when manufacturer ask you to print 1.3MP on 4"x6" and 3MP on A4 size.

And in those time, the sensor area per pixel is very big that you always get high quality clean pixels, which make it possible to enlarge your photo with some interpolation. But now? See the 100% crop picture from the link provided by thread starter? See especially the picture in sharpness sections. I looked at it with my 125ppi monitor from 40cm away. The one from Canon 5D is still acceptable to print out, but do you think it is still ok to print the one from Nikon D200 at 125ppi? And it is DSLR that we are referring now... For P&S, I don't think anyone will except the quality of photo printed with less than 300ppi.
Pity: you might save others some money.
No reason to directly point it out as it is not supposed to print at that resolution. Most small sensor high megapixels camera suffer from the same problem.
 
If you would, take a look at the link in my first post. Mouse over
the images and compare the shots taken with APS and Full Frame
cameras. The APS looks sloppy and blurred. Most people claim their
pics from their DSLR's are "tack sharp". Both cannot be true.
I think the photo from Nikon D200 looks a bit too blur. Seems like not in focus to me. Even an image from P&S viewing at 100% is not that blur if in focus.
 
If you would, take a look at the link in my first post. Mouse over
the images and compare the shots taken with APS and Full Frame
cameras. The APS looks sloppy and blurred. Most people claim their
pics from their DSLR's are "tack sharp". Both cannot be true.
I think the photo from Nikon D200 looks a bit too blur. Seems like
not in focus to me. Even an image from P&S viewing at 100% is not
that blur if in focus.
I agree. Something wrong with Rockwell's sample pics.
 
3. The noise is gaussian and independent among pixels. (which rarely
true)
Yes, though assuming Gaussian noise is sufficient but not necessary. All that is needed for validity of the statistics are that the noise events be uncorrelated (independent) and that their statistics have a finite standard deviation.

As an extreme example, if the only source of noise were due to spontaneous emission of excited electronic states, the statistics would be Lorentzian, and could not be described in terms of a standard deviation. (All statistical moments beyond the mean diverge.) Even in this case, though, the analysis could still be done, though I am not quite curious enough to work through it. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other common statistical models that don't have a definable std dev.

Of course, correlated noise can be analyzed too, if one knows the correlation properties.

I disagree with the parenthetical remark though, most of the time the noise would be well modeled as uncorrelated. Only when you push the sensor to the limit of sensitivity do you start seeing the correlation effects I alluded to.

(Also, I realize that my wording about single-photon correlation effects at extremely high ISO were a bit sloppy and carelessly worded.)
--
Thomas D. Shepard, Sc.D.
 
Fair enough for your points. But if we were to analyse this deeply we would go into the research field of stochastic process and time-varying statistics, which only concern the research engineers of the sensors. To simplify matters for broad public here, I think it is enough to generalize to give our point of views.
 
Well, there is at least one highly technical topic that we touched that should matter to most of us, and that is how the digital noise actually scales with detector (meaning individual element of a sensor) size. I didn't really cover it that well. I am a bit confused about how the photon statistics map to the digital data.

If the detectors are "photon counters," so that the number that gets recorded is directly proportional to the photon fluence, then the noise scales only as the square root of the detector area. In electronic signal analysis, a signal of a certain voltage, when sent to a speaker, for example, produces an output power proportional to the square of the voltage, which is the reason why the noise level goes as the square of the random component of the signal voltage or current. I am not sure if that is how photo signals ultimately drive displays. If what gets recorded is proportional to photon fluence, rather than energy fluence, the scaling could be less favorable than we often assume.

Also, there would be noise sources coming directly from the electronics, independent of photon statistics, and that may or may not combine with photon noise in the same way. I have no idea if and/or when photon statistics dominates over electromagnetic noise in digital sensors for photography.

A scientist or engineer who designs digital equipment could probably enlighten me on this, assuming his or her knowledge isn't too proprietary.
--
Thomas D. Shepard, Sc.D.
 
I've had more than 1 art teacher at my school tell me that 150 dpi is the max most digital printers print at. I always thought 300dpi was the golden rule.

--
never say never
 

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