Guy Mancuso's post in http://www.l-camera-forum.com

[JK5700]

At what stage will the new shutter be standard on new M8s? I presume that if I order an M8 now, it will be blessed with the new shutter or I will get a free upgrade?

 

[New2Nikon]

Actually, I disagree with these comments. I shot an M6 for years and now am shooting Nikon. I'd love to get back to leica some day, but at $5500 the M8 is already probably overpriced for what it is, certainly when compared to a Nikon D3. Ignoring the "conveniences" that one gets from an slr (auto focus, zoom lenses, etc.), there is simply no way the picture quality of an M8 can touch that of a D3, in terms of both actual iq as well as low light/ high iso useage. and the nikons/canons etc. continue to improve their picture quality at each given price point with new sensors and higher iso capabilities every year , as well drop their price points in many cases.

Given these facts, Leica would be crazy to think new buyers will pay for upgrades on top of the $5500 for the base camera to get the latest enhancements (particularly when these enhancements don't even enhance image quality!!). At this rate, an up to date M8 will cost over 10k in a couple years!

The new upgrades should be included on all new M8's immediately and (unless i'm missing something) shame on Leica for failing to do so, much less clarify this whole issue.

 

[Nikonparrothead]

Based on what I've read of Guy's postings in the Leica user's forum and his own forum, M8s will continue to be M8s, with the current 1/8000 shutter, though some dealers may opt to upgrade "new" cameras.

I can't remember whether Leica plans to come out with a parallel digital M that would carry the "upgrdade" items as standard features.

--
'Nice pen, bet you write good stories with it.'

 

[Jono Slack]

HI There

Actually, I disagree with these comments. I shot an M6 for years and
now am shooting Nikon. I'd love to get back to leica some day, but
at $5500 the M8 is already probably overpriced for what it is,
certainly when compared to a Nikon D3. Ignoring the "conveniences"
that one gets from an slr (auto focus, zoom lenses, etc.), there is
simply no way the picture quality of an M8 can touch that of a D3, in
terms of both actual iq as well as low light/ high iso useage. and
the nikons/canons etc. continue to improve their picture quality at
each given price point with new sensors and higher iso capabilities
every year , as well drop their price points in many cases.

Actually, although I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the M8 can touch the D3 in terms of low light / high ISO useage, I'm not convinced that the low ISO image quality is better. There is a certain something you get from a camera with no AA filter, and the M8 is capable of splendid images.

The new upgrades should be included on all new M8's immediately and
(unless i'm missing something) shame on Leica for failing to do so,
much less clarify this whole issue.

Hang on - what if you want a faster shutter with a higher flash sync and top shutter speed and you don't care about the noise?

This new shutter is different, but not necessarily better. Clearly, when the M8 was produced Leica thought that it was worth sacrificing a little extra shutter noise for a faster action - now they are simply supplying a solution for those who don't agree.

I was using mine today at 1/8000 to limit DOF out in the sunlight. It's useful.

So, yes, I think you're missing something here.

kind regards

--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

 

[New2Nikon]

If that is the case, the "upgrade" should not be sold as such but rather as an alternative. While I appreciate what you are saying, I wonder if Leica really intends on continuing to produce the "old" shutter on M8's once they tool up for the new one and inventory is depleted. Producing two shutters wouldn't make much sense for a company of leica's size and the use of the term "upgrade" implies otherwise. In addition, as they come out with additional upgrades the situation will become a mess and anyone that wants to simply purchase a new up-to-date camera will have to spend 10k or so, which clearly an M8 will never be worth.

I would tend to think that Leica's handling of the situation was either sloopy or intentionally unclear if not misleading. On the one hand they clearly felt significant pressure to come out with something new, why else would they announce these new features a full 6 months before they can start undertaking the very first upgrades. on the other hand, they clearly have inventory that needs to be sold down before they announce the new features as standard on all M8's. If I purchased an M8 today and learned that these new features will be standard later in the year, I would be very unhappy.

just how things appear to me, not a current m8 owner but a prospective one.

 

[Jono Slack]

I would tend to think that Leica's handling of the situation was
either sloopy or intentionally unclear if not misleading. On the one
hand they clearly felt significant pressure to come out with
something new, why else would they announce these new features a full
6 months before they can start undertaking the very first upgrades.
on the other hand, they clearly have inventory that needs to be sold
down before they announce the new features as standard on all M8's.
If I purchased an M8 today and learned that these new features will
be standard later in the year, I would be very unhappy.

I suspect that it's intentionally sloppy - and that they haven't really decided which way to go - on the other hand I really DON'T think the new shutter is supposed to be a final replacement for the old, faster one.

I think they have a problem that if they come out with all the details now, then they will lose sales one way or another - being a bit vague might seem to be the best policy.

just how things appear to me, not a current m8 owner but a
prospective one.

If you really want the quieter shutter, then I guess you'll have to wait - mind you, most of us have managed these 18 months with the louder one!

I do sympathise though - for me the idea of the update with a 2 year warranty extension is quite attractive at that price.

all the best

--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

 

[New2Nikon]

sounds like we are at least seem to be reaching agreement on one point, which is that if you are considering purchasing an m8 and feel that as a current buyer you should probably benefit in some way from advancements over the past year and a half (as with flat panel tv's, all other camera manufacturers, etc.), it would make little sense to purchase a new M8 right now unless desperate to do so.

 

[Vikas M Gore]

I don't think so. It sounded as if the M8 will continue to be sold as is. ANy upgrades are optionsal. In fact some upgrades could probably be seen as options rather than upgrades - some folk may prefer a 1/8000 noisy shutter to a 1/4000 quieter shutter for instance. But changing from the base M8 will cost extra!

Of course if a particular otion becomes an overwhelming favourite, Leica could always decide to change the "base M8" in future! Who knows.
--

• Vikas

M8, M6, CLE

 

[Vikas M Gore]

I do agree with the point that you made though. The rate of change (improvement) on other brands does seem to be a lot faster than on Leicas. However depending on what Leica's next camera is it could just mean that leica makes bigger leaps every two or three years rather than smaller leaps every year. OK, the D3 is not a small leap, but then it too was a while coming!

--

• Vikas

M8, M6, CLE

 

[Jono Slack]

sounds like we are at least seem to be reaching agreement on one
point, which is that if you are considering purchasing an m8 and feel
that as a current buyer you should probably benefit in some way from
advancements over the past year and a half (as with flat panel tv's,
all other camera manufacturers, etc.), it would make little sense to
purchase a new M8 right now unless desperate to do so.

I don't think the quieter shutter is a benefit over the past year and a half . . . I just think it's different. I might like a quieter shutter (ok I WOULD like a quieter shutter). but out of 25,000 photos I'd be a liar if I said that a single shot would have been better if I'd had a quieter shutter.

On the other hand there are certainly shots I've taken which I couldn't have managed with 1/4000.

all the best

--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

 

[booggerg]

The subtle differences minus the AA filter is only apparent at 100% viewing, not something that would show up in a reasonable sized print. The M8 horrendous high ISO performance is apparent even on a web resolution down-sized image. I'd take(and most of us will take) the AA filter + usable high ISO any day.

 

[Ross]

It is hard to make comparisons just for the effects of an AA filter, but what I have seen in a reasonable sized print is more detail and, of course, noise is moderated in the ink-jet printing process, so it isn't always a detriment. This is all dependent on what you are comparing it to, the sensor type, size, image processor, software and probably very importantly the lenses. The other factor is the printer, paper and ink.

So, everyone has to make their own comparisons using their own systems, to draw their own conclusions and sometime make adjustments for raw converters and PP to get the best from what is being compared and for which quality.
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

 

[Franka T.L.]

Well, whatever Leica might be facing is their own problem and their own making. If they think a Leica A la Carte / M7 / MP can be offered in such variety of options, then the 2 version of M8 with different shutter is not really that much of a far fetched idea.

On the other hand, What about the new LCD cover. Quite clearly it should and can easily incorporated into the new produced M8 and I think its simply prudent that it be done. Leica's being too vague on this , and I suspect the problem is they had factory stock of old parts and M8 also. which all had to be upgraded if they come out with M8 with improved / upgrade already build in.

Market vise, I had to agree if someone is seriously considering a M8 purchase today, then it might be very prudent to had Leica put it down as to what he/she might get and what if the new owner want the quiet shutter instead. Will there be factory New M8 come with such instead of someone having to pay 5K+ for a brand new M8 and right away ditch the perfectly new shutter / LCD screen and had to shelf another 1.8K just to had the upgrade. Don't quite add up really ...

Equally, If they think such thing as a perpetual upgrade should be for Leica , they should offer similar for R system user ( I am sure many R8/R9 user with DMR would want a FF upgrade )

--

• Franka -

 

[Jono Slack]

HI There

newNikon2 said:

there is
simply no way the picture quality of an M8 can touch that of a D3, in
terms of both actual iq as well as low light/ high iso useage

I wasn't trying to say that the M8 was necessarily better at low ISO - simply that the statement that there's no way it can touch a D3 is arguable.

That's all.
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk