D60- King of the Hill !!!

[Mark Antony-Franklin]

Peter

I would like to echo your sentiment with respect to Phil Askey's review of the D60. It was as usual, an indepth review, immaculately presented and hugely enjoyable to read!

• Well done, Phil, ...I've had the pleasure to read many of your reviews and they are typically all, ...extremely helpful and good reading!

As for the good folks who have come onto the Forum today and almost damned the performance and/or test results of D60 with faint praise ...albeit via the aforementioned P.A. review ...and especially because of the seemingly unchanged AF performance of the '60 over its '30 predecessor - ...I say, with great respect, ...it's simple, buy something else more suited to your needs - we all know what those options are!

The manufacturers have to delineate their products somewhere along the spec trail - or else their product catalogues would be redundant before the ink was dry on the respective brochures!

Canon have presented us with a body that is the equal, or better, of a £5,400 Nikon D1X in terms of picture quality! That, given the price as quoted (for the US market at any rate), for a D60, is a superb accomplishment by our dear friends at Canon!

As for the price of the D60 in the UK, ..well, I hope, as I've mentioned in a previous post today, that Canon UK take as much heed of our comments as they do apparently on the technical front!

Regards

Mark

Phil basically said we are buying D1X quality OR BETTER at $2199,
am I correct?

This is wonderful, Phil just about called the D60 King of the Hill.
In comparison tests the D60 edged out the $5500 D1X.

The noise tests went to the D60 over the D1X too!! Wow.

I am very impressed. The D60 will give me MF capabilities in the
digital world. I love the noise readings, this is the best part of
all. Putting 6 million pixels in the space where there were 3
million pixels just oozes with the possibilities of trouble. But
Phil said the D60 still guve uncanny silky smooth pictures the same
like the D30 STILL does. Just double the resolution, or as
McDonald's would say - SUPERSIZE IT!!!

The AF issue is still an issue. It seems this will be resolved by
us on a very personal level when we actually get camera in hand. I
often shoot in the same dark places and I MUST manually focus. If
this changes for me, then I will know it in a heartbeat.

A word of compliment and accomplishment for Phil:

Overall, Phil has become the master at reviews, second to none.
This should be proclaimed as occasionally we get a few irrevernt
comments to Phil's abilities.

This is the FIRST review on a production D60 in the world, and a
great one at that. Kudos to Phil.

And kudos to us too, we are getting one great camera.

Canon, you get an acknowledgement of a good job too. It is a
stinking blemish to make such a good camera and put your absolute
bottom of the line AF system in it. I guess Nikon will have to show
you how it's done in that department. Shame. But otherwise Canon
gets very high marks, they also get our money too

Let's hope some of these camera's get released this week.

Pete

 

[Richard Smith41318]

Phil definitely confirmed my suspicions about the AF just being the same as the D30 with all the tweeks being in the lamp.

The one thing he didn't mention was in regard to Custum Function 5. I know you can set CF 5 so that a 550 or 420 flash can be exploited for it's IR AF-assist lamp without using it as a flash. The thing I really want to know is, does this mean I can use an ST-E2 in "P" mode?

This may seem like a nitpicky detail, but would probably justify getting a D60+ST-E2 for me.

 

[Phil Askey]

Actually I did mention it.

Phil definitely confirmed my suspicions about the AF just being the
same as the D30 with all the tweeks being in the lamp.

The one thing he didn't mention was in regard to Custum Function 5.
I know you can set CF 5 so that a 550 or 420 flash can be exploited
for it's IR AF-assist lamp without using it as a flash. The thing
I really want to know is, does this mean I can use an ST-E2 in "P"
mode?

This may seem like a nitpicky detail, but would probably justify
getting a D60+ST-E2 for me.

 

[Barry Horn]

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

Phil's called the D60 "improved shutter lag" over the D30. I shoot sports with a 1V to go digital do I have to go to a 1D or will the D60 suffice?

 

[djm80364]

get a 1D

DJM

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

Phil's called the D60 "improved shutter lag" over the D30. I shoot
sports with a 1V to go digital do I have to go to a 1D or will the
D60 suffice?

 

[Jack O'Neill]

Hi Phil, It was my understanding that the D30/60 is in the sRGB color space and I thought that this also appllied to pictures taken in RAW mode. If you use an action to convert the raw Linear file to a wider gamut is it just interpolating color or do you get a true wider gamut?

Jack

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

 

[JohnM31499]

Phil's called the D60 "improved shutter lag" over the D30. I shoot
sports with a 1V to go digital do I have to go to a 1D or will the
D60 suffice?

No, the D60 will not suffice, you need a 1D for that!!

 

[Ron Parr]

Hi Phil, It was my understanding that the D30/60 is in the sRGB
color space and I thought that this also appllied to pictures taken
in RAW mode. If you use an action to convert the raw Linear file
to a wider gamut is it just interpolating color or do you get a
true wider gamut?

sRGB is an 8-bit format and you're getting 12 bits off the sensor. Are you suggesting that they discard the extra 4 bits and just stretch out the remaining 8 when doing linear TIFF?

How could RAW mode have a colorspace such as sRGB unless this is the native colorspace of the sensor, since RAW mode doesn't do any color conversion? If sRGB is the native colorspace of the sensor, then how could it be a 12-bit sensor (sRGB is only an 8 bit format).

These aren't meant to be hostile questions. I'm tyring to figure this out too...

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[Jack O'Neill]

Hi Ron,

No offense taken, I like you am just trying to understand too. Hopefully Phil will shed light on this. Personnaly I've gotten the best results from staying with sRGB, but maybe I'm doing something wrong or have not found the right formula

Jack

Hi Phil, It was my understanding that the D30/60 is in the sRGB
color space and I thought that this also appllied to pictures taken
in RAW mode. If you use an action to convert the raw Linear file
to a wider gamut is it just interpolating color or do you get a
true wider gamut?

sRGB is an 8-bit format and you're getting 12 bits off the sensor.
Are you suggesting that they discard the extra 4 bits and just
stretch out the remaining 8 when doing linear TIFF?

How could RAW mode have a colorspace such as sRGB unless this is
the native colorspace of the sensor, since RAW mode doesn't do any
color conversion? If sRGB is the native colorspace of the sensor,
then how could it be a 12-bit sensor (sRGB is only an 8 bit format).

These aren't meant to be hostile questions. I'm tyring to figure
this out too...

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[Phil Askey]

Erm, the sensor isn't an 'sRGB sensor', the RAW files contain 12-bit values directly from the sensor.. The camera / RAW Image Converter software "map" colours into sRGB.. There's no reason from what I can see that a third party RAW converter couldn't output into other colour spaces (nor Canon's own if they choosed).

Jack

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

 

[Richard Smith41318]

Actually I did mention it.

Thanks! I see the text on Page 2. It seems to imply that the IR lamp on an ST-E2 or 550EX will "fire" regardless of the CF-5 setting (so, yes, the D30 requirement that you use Tv or Av with the ST-E2 has been removed). However if you happen to own a 420EX (which I do), then setting CF-5 to setting 3 is necessary.

Overall I'm impressed that Canon worked to hard to address the AF issues. Even if it only amounts to a more robust set of workarounds, it still makes me want to take the plunge. Thanks for an awesome review and for the quick reply!

 

[Jack O'Neill]

Thanks Phil,
Would this apply to a non-linear RAW conversion as well as the linear?

Jack

Jack

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

 

[Phil Askey]

Yes, but that would be up to the software. As yet there aren't any third party RAW converters for the D60...

Jack

Jack

Is it my understanding that a larger color space may be preserved
in the RAW output of the D60 camera? That when using a photoshop
action like Fred Miranda's LPBatch in AdobeRGB mode will actually
increase the gamut of colors? And the RAW file format itself would
actually increase the dynamic range of the photo?

Thank you!
--
Clint
http://www.pbase.com/moviebear

 

[Raymond S]

It's surprising there's no rumors about that. Well, let's start one:

"I heard from a cousin whose buddy is in the same bowling club as [insert some more vague relationships here] that Foveon actually got turned down by Nikon & Canon because they (N&C) have already got something better in their pipelines".

How's that for an explanation ?

Ray

Would have been really smart of Sigma but it would have been really
stupid of Foveon!

Louis

 

[Louis Nell]

Wonder if Foveon patented the technology......

Louis

"I heard from a cousin whose buddy is in the same bowling club as
[insert some more vague relationships here] that Foveon actually
got turned down by Nikon & Canon because they (N&C) have already
got something better in their pipelines".

How's that for an explanation ?

Ray

Would have been really smart of Sigma but it would have been really
stupid of Foveon!

Louis

 

[Lee Rothman]

Just to be more specific. It still ain't a 1D, but for many it will be nirvana indeed.

 

[Jason Stoller]

Someone please explain to me why the D60 is not usuable for sports yet Canon has sports mode setting on the camera. The shutter speed is sure fast enough! Are you saying that the AutoFocus makes it impossible? I shot some sports photos with an E-10 and an E-20 so I want to know why I see this statement made?

Thanks
Jason

Hi

I think the D1x and 1D are for a different kind of market - the
professionals whose lifeline depends on their skill, AND their
equipment.

The D60 (and D30) may produce superlative quality (and i love my
D30 to bits ), but they are in no way suitable for sports and
other fast moving applications. Neither are they likely to
withstand the kind of abuse a D1x / 1D will take, in all weather
conditions.

Neither is their AF going to compete with the 1D / D1x for mission
critcal applications. True, u can MF, but MF with D30 is no way
comparable to MF with a Leica M6, or even a true MF camera, with
their split screen / helpful focusing screen tailored for manual
focusing.

So, the D60 is king of the hill for the market segment that it
targets, but i feel it's not very useful to compare it with the pro
class cameras.

Besides, if u have handled a 1D (or 1V, like i have...) u will
realise just how much u're missing out on a pro body

--
Red Dawn

--Jason Stoller [email protected] are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their new products!

 

[djm80364]

Its possible to use a D60 for outdoor sports or indoor with good lighting..there have been many examples posted here done with a D30. If you want professional AF super fast FPS in almost any conditions you need the 1D.

DJM

Thanks
Jason

Hi

I think the D1x and 1D are for a different kind of market - the
professionals whose lifeline depends on their skill, AND their
equipment.

The D60 (and D30) may produce superlative quality (and i love my
D30 to bits ), but they are in no way suitable for sports and
other fast moving applications. Neither are they likely to
withstand the kind of abuse a D1x / 1D will take, in all weather
conditions.

Neither is their AF going to compete with the 1D / D1x for mission
critcal applications. True, u can MF, but MF with D30 is no way
comparable to MF with a Leica M6, or even a true MF camera, with
their split screen / helpful focusing screen tailored for manual
focusing.

So, the D60 is king of the hill for the market segment that it
targets, but i feel it's not very useful to compare it with the pro
class cameras.

Besides, if u have handled a 1D (or 1V, like i have...) u will
realise just how much u're missing out on a pro body

--
Red Dawn

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

 

[Jason Stoller]

Ok I understand but for shooting High School football outside under light its a challange for any camera. So the D60 will work and I realize I just will not get as Many Frames per Second. I have an E100rs that does 15fps that has a Canon 38-380 in it that I know will work. I thought it was a focus issue or something. So in reality it's really not fair to say the D60 will not work for sports. It would be better to say that the D60 is capable but just not as capable as the 1D when shooting sports because of FPS.

Does this make more sense?

Jason

DJM

Thanks
Jason

Hi

I think the D1x and 1D are for a different kind of market - the
professionals whose lifeline depends on their skill, AND their
equipment.

The D60 (and D30) may produce superlative quality (and i love my
D30 to bits ), but they are in no way suitable for sports and
other fast moving applications. Neither are they likely to
withstand the kind of abuse a D1x / 1D will take, in all weather
conditions.

Neither is their AF going to compete with the 1D / D1x for mission
critcal applications. True, u can MF, but MF with D30 is no way
comparable to MF with a Leica M6, or even a true MF camera, with
their split screen / helpful focusing screen tailored for manual
focusing.

So, the D60 is king of the hill for the market segment that it
targets, but i feel it's not very useful to compare it with the pro
class cameras.

Besides, if u have handled a 1D (or 1V, like i have...) u will
realise just how much u're missing out on a pro body

--
Red Dawn

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

--Jason Stoller [email protected] are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their new products!

 

[Louis Nell]

Really depends on the lighting. With a max ISO of 1000 you might not be able to freeze the action in fast moving objects.

I think it's just a bit more diificult to shoot sports with a D60 rather than a 1D. It's defenately possible.

Louis

Does this make more sense?

Jason

DJM

Thanks
Jason

Hi

I think the D1x and 1D are for a different kind of market - the
professionals whose lifeline depends on their skill, AND their
equipment.

The D60 (and D30) may produce superlative quality (and i love my
D30 to bits ), but they are in no way suitable for sports and
other fast moving applications. Neither are they likely to
withstand the kind of abuse a D1x / 1D will take, in all weather
conditions.

Neither is their AF going to compete with the 1D / D1x for mission
critcal applications. True, u can MF, but MF with D30 is no way
comparable to MF with a Leica M6, or even a true MF camera, with
their split screen / helpful focusing screen tailored for manual
focusing.

So, the D60 is king of the hill for the market segment that it
targets, but i feel it's not very useful to compare it with the pro
class cameras.

Besides, if u have handled a 1D (or 1V, like i have...) u will
realise just how much u're missing out on a pro body

--
Red Dawn

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!

--
Jason Stoller [email protected]
We are just Beta Testers who pay the Camera Companies to test their
new products!