How Do You European Photographers Do It?

[henkster]

It is not that bad. We enjoy about 7 weeks of paid vacation here in Belgium, and get an end of year bonus, all summed up, 13.85 times a monthly salary. We have a tax bracket, and 'luxury goods' and cameras fall into the highest one, a mere 25%.

But we do enjoy a 2 year Pan European warranty on those too, which makes it difficult to compare. As houses, here they are brick and concrete, while in the US, many are build from wood.

It is not easy to compare the US and the EU, but when I will retire in a few years, I will receive about $2,300 in monthly pension payout (no vacation payout or end of year bonus though). And when I retire, I will get paid out my capital life insurance, $250,000, not mandatory, but most companies have sealed a contract with the insurance companies for tax reasons. The same is valid for the car I drive. A $34,000 luxury car, leased by the company andmy monthly contribution is minute, $150 with maintenance and road and other taxes incuded.

I do not have to worry about hospital bills either. $15 per day, the rest is covered by the health insurnce.

For an American, Europe is expensive nowadays. It is not only the actual price, but I find it more appropiate, how long one has to work to buy a certain product, The L1 at 1995€, just 80% a mere of my montly net. If I were married and having kids, the percentage would drop, though 'The one who has to be obeyed' will have her word on purchasing toys.

--
Henk

Donde una puerta se cierra, otra se abre

 

[henkster]

I bought an 50-200 mm lens with B&H, for 900+ € (shipping, taxes and duties included), which was on offer with only one company for 1,4995 €.
300 € less on a French site.

--
Henk

Donde una puerta se cierra, otra se abre

 

[Effzeeone]

The "weak American dollar" is only a temporary excuse at best, and doesn't explain why even if you use a historically high exchange rate or a perfect 1:1 ratio, there are simply a lot of things that are more expensive on the right side of the Atlantic versus the left. If it was a longer term reason, then the prices in America would go up to reflect it.

Again, I still enjoyed my vacation and it was a joy to see the parts of Europe that I was able to visit. This thread has gotten completely out of hand with politics, insults, etc., which was not my intention.

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder why I post anything here, because more often than not things get taken completely out of context, and off I go to write a message to the forum moderators to have the entire thread removed. This thread is starting to look like another candidate.

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Chris

 

[Effzeeone]

Wow...I would be in big trouble with She-Who-Holds-the-Money if we
lived in Europe. I would have to find a different hobby...like
breathing, as that was about the only thing free we did over there --
haha. Even that was probably at a cost because cigarette smoking was
rampant over there compared to in the USA where there seems to be far
more restrictions on smoking in public places.

Well, maybe it is best to stay at home...

Maybe it's best that you don't reply to my threads.

The other thing is, if you and "She-Who-Holds-the-Money" would be
living here, probably you would get another picture and would not
worry that much about prices. I know I am not, nor does my
"She-Who-Holds-the-Money" because we have the full picture.

The full picture is a matter of perspective. I'm frugal. I would be even more frugal if I lived somewhere with a higher cost of living. That is simply common sense.

As for smoking, it may be so that some countries have not much (if
any) restrictions, but please, don't make the mistake of saying
Europe is equal to...

EU and Europe is equal to so many different countries, cultures,
languages and way of living, that it is difficult to imagine and you
seem to ingnore that basic fact. Even regarding cigarette
restrictions. I have no idea if USA is just one united country
regarding that issue (I doubt that)

Smoking in public is mandated by both federal (nationwide) and state laws. Currently, the federal laws are far more restrictive, making the lesser state laws ineffective/obsolete.

, but I am convinced that the
risks of you getting shot by accident or as part of a criminal act
somewhere in Florida are much higher than the risks a non-smoker
European is taking living in the most cigarette liberal country of
Europe, whichever that may be. So, it may be so that there are more
restrictions in USA regarding cigarettes, but I prefer to have more
restrictions on personal fire arms than on cigarettes.

Generalizing once again? YEEHAW...excuse me while I go out yonder on the range and shoot off my pistol and rope some cattle. Are we Americans all cowboys now, riding on the range with gun holsters and cowboy hats?

You're touching on a never-ending debate. In Texas (a US state with very liberal gun laws) there is statistically less gun related/involved crime than other states with more strict gun laws (like Florida). The argument for that is that if everyone can legally walk around with a conceiled weapon (ie, gun), then criminals are less likely to mess with you because they will be justifiably shot. The counter argument is that if everyone is allowed to carry semi-automatic weapons, then the criminals will simply get full automatic weapons, etc.

Whether you like it or not the criminal element in your country do have guns. They're not committing crimes with their smiles. Stricter gun laws don't stop criminals from getting guns, it just stops victims from being able to properly defend themselves.

In my extended family alone, I know 12 people within two generations who died smoking related deaths. I have no relatives within that same two generations who have died from gunshot wounds -- not even as a result of war (there have been five wars during this time period). I'm sure I could probably extend that back a couple of generations, too, but I don't know that for 100% certainty.

--

Chris

 

[David Hughes124436]

I'll try again - although many have already made the point - this is a cultural thing and using a calculator as the basis for the comparison is just wrong.

As an example, I'd expect in the UK to get breakfast for us all as part of the room/hotel price but in France I'd not eat where I was staying but find a local cafe and pay 2 or 3 € for it (and I wouldn't be surprised that it was a French version of breakfast, either; try getting a full English breakfast in France... ).

As for taxes etc I can see a point being made but have yet to learn what income tax is paid in the USA; although I provided details in a previous post. I'd also like to know what full medical insurance costs and how it varies with age and what state pension you get in the USA as that comes out of our taxes in the UK. Absence of these figures confirms my views at present...

Then there were the minimum wages paid which give an idea of how the poor are treated (and standards of living and prices).

Perhaps it would be an idea to give wages for jobs in each country (like postman for example, as this job must be the same throughout Europe and the USA). Then we could use the wages as a conversion factor.

Just my 2d worth. David

 

[David Hughes124436]

The "weak American dollar" is only a temporary excuse at best, and
doesn't explain why even if you use a historically high exchange rate
or a perfect 1:1 ratio, there are simply a lot of things that are
more expensive on the right side of the Atlantic versus the left. If
it was a longer term reason, then the prices in America would go up
to reflect it.

Again, I still enjoyed my vacation and it was a joy to see the parts
of Europe that I was able to visit. This thread has gotten
completely out of hand with politics, insults, etc., which was not my
intention.

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder why I post anything here, because
more often than not things get taken completely out of context, and
off I go to write a message to the forum moderators to have the
entire thread removed. This thread is starting to look like another
candidate.

Please stick with it Chris. I find the entire thread fascinating and it is throwing a lot of light on to things which are normally dealt with by the tabloids and no one else.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes124436]

Trouble is this thread is about an American tourist in Europe and not
about how we (Europeans) go about things.

For years and years I worked in the City and would go for a walk at
lunchtime and go to (say) the park and buy a picnic lunch on the way
but I didn't buy from tourists' shops at tourists' prices. Nor did I
buy exotic (American f'instance) food but instead I bought what I'd
normally eat. The breakfast prices quoted amazed me but if I was
buying I'd pay a lot less because experience has taught me that
normal prices for normal things exist alongside silly prices for
silly tourists. Or does everyone really belief that no one works in
towns any more?

Well, in America the price posted is the price paid. If I had to
negotiate the price of a Diet Coke every time I wanted one, I'd never
get to drink it. If you're defending that type of price gouging,
then I suggest that you are the "silly" local who finds amusement in
the fleecing of tourists. Please do let me know when you visit
Florida. I'd love to see the response you get from the convenience
store clerk when you start negotiation the price of a beveridge with
them.

I was trying to point out that within yards of the tourists paying tourist prices there are clerks and shop staff not paying tourist prices and eating and drinking. If you want to sit outside in the church square admiring the view then go ahead but you pay for it.

In France I usually buy breakfast outside of the hotel and so can say
that a cup of black coffee and a couple of croissants is dirt cheap.
It has to be because the shop would close without customers and
customers who live in a town soon discover what the local level of
sensible prices is. About € 2 or 3 € (luckily the family own property
in France so I know several towns fairly well).

3 € = US$4.50. I can get black coffee and a donut for less than
US$2.00. Sounds like you got taken like a silly tourist.

Nope but to me that's £2 and £2 is a coin in my back pocket...

As for the camera etc; the US dollar is falling in value as we
type/read this. A couple of years ago I'd get US$14 for a tenner, a
year ago about $15 or $16 and this week about $20 but these are
bankers rates. It makes more sense - if you want to understand prices

• to look at average wages and compare them. Then look at normal

things and compare them. Because when all's said and done we
Europeans somehow manage to eat daily (probably a lot better than
Americans) and drink as well (no comment) and have dSLR's and
computers etc etc.

Regards, David

I refer you back to my original message that started this thread. I
also refer you to the numerous responses from your fellow European
members who agree with my original assessment. Clearly you must
manage to eat, drink, and buy cameras and computers, but that doesn't
stop me from being shocked at the differences in prices of all of
that from what I am used to in America.

I agree that prices are higher but you have to see the overall picture and a tourist isn't going to see it. For a start you got the calculator out and I would have a gut feeling about the prices and what I could afford and what was normal. As I said, it's a cultural thing.

It was an observation. Sorry if you took it as an insult.

How on earth did you figure that out? I try to explain and get treated as though I'm attacking...

I'll observe that the USA $ is weak and so prices are artificial. More to the point I have different priorities to you due to taxes etc and so may earn and live on a lot less than you but live better. It will take a lot of research to sort that out, though...

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes124436]

After touring Spain, Itally, and France for the last two weeks, I
have to tell you that the prices you're quoting were not my
experience at all. And I wasn't always in tourist towns -- most of
my experience was in port cities (ie, industry and not tourist -- we
traveled to the tourist cities by bus or train). I can get a loaf of
bread in America for $0.89 at any grocery store. When I could find a
grocery store during my European vacation (I found a total of two
even after asking locals), I was easily paying 5x that amount for a 3
croissants. I was easily paying $10 for a 2-egg, 2-bacon, single
slice of toast breakfast at local cafes, and that didn't include the
$3 cup of coffee that came with no free refills even though I was
eating at the cafe. The same breakfast in a local Florida diner is
$4.95 (and that's overpriced) and comes with more meat and toast, as
well as an endless supply of coffee.

Simply put, Europe was a great place to visit, but there is no way
that we could live there primarily due to simple cost of living:
food, real estate, transportation. On our return to the USA the
other day, we made a trip to the usual grocery store to get the usual
two-week array of staples. $180 was the total, and that included a
significant amount of binge food that the kids missed so much while
in Europe. On the way back from the airport, I noticed our fuel
prices were $2.85 per GALLON. We're also building a 3,000+ square
foot home on 3/4 acre of land for 1/3 of the price that a 2-bedroom
flat of 1/6th the square footage (and no land/yard) would cost in
Spain, Italy, or France.

I'll pay for healthcare any day over the exponentially higher
day-to-day costs of just living in Europe. I don't get sick that
much. I have four children, which means more frequent visits to the
doctor, and I'm still WAY ahead financially by paying for healthcare
while having significantly reduced cost of living.

For the record: $3,300 per year in health insurance for my family of
six, not including a small co-pay for each visit (like $30) and
$15-20 for medical prescriptions. That will cover catastrophic as
well as general wellness, and keep in mind that our health insurance
is somewhat on the high side because of having four relatively young
children. As our household dwindles down to two children and two
adults in the near future, that yearly premium will be roughly cut in
half.

Chris,

If your theory is correct then I died of starvation long ago. Thanks for the figures BTW; as you get older will the medical insurance cost more?

Regards, David

 

[Effzeeone]

I think you're making it too complicated. It wasn't a financial analysis of each countries GNP, healthcare systems, etc. It was simply an observation that some very basic things (food, transportation, shelter) as well as some luxury items (cameras and other electronics) were much more expensive in the cities I toured in Europe than in the United States (as a whole).

Now everyone's bringing in "the weak American dollar", retirement, healthcare, VAT, income taxes, tourist fleecing, etc. It's irrelevant to my observation. If the American dollar being "weak" was anything more than a temporary fluctuation in the exchange rate, then I'm sure that our prices would go up to compensate. Most of our electronics are not made in the USA, so trade and import from other countries would dictate the price going up. Even domestic products would go up in price if the American dollar was permanently deflated. I've already quoted camera prices and locations. I've already discussed petrol and real estate. Although some of the cities I mentioned are tourist cities, most of the port cities were ugly, industrial ports (again, not an insult -- American industrial ports are typically ugly, too, as they are not tourist cities), with little if any tourist appeal at all and most of the shops, restaurants, etc., providing services and goods to the local population since there simply isn't a real tourist trade there.

For example, there was very little in Barcelona that was "touristy". Just because they held the Olympics there, doesn't make it forever a tourist city. Barcelona is a port city with a rather ugly, industrial port. I saw little else there except 1970-80's architecture, and the typical small shops that you would see in the downtown district of any medium sized American city. The city proper wasn't ugly, but it wasn't exactly Washington DC, Paris, or London either. Yet prices were significantly more there for everything when compared to a similar sized city (even a tourist city) here in the USA. Simple observation/experience. After two weeks vacation, I came back to my tourist city in the USA and guess what -- everything is still priced the same as when I left, weak American dollar or not. Petrol was actually cheaper now than when I left, so explain that one.

The overanalyzation of it all politically, economically, opinion, etc., is irrelevant and can neither change my original observation nor even appropriately/accurately explain it (ie, "weak American dollar" excuse). As most threads typically end up here, we now have a very few people who have stretched this thread way beyond it's normal lifecycle. It should've been on the fourth page a day or two ago. Instead we now have people chiming in with "so don't come to Europe" or "stop referring to all of us as Europeans -- we're individuals" or even "Bush funded Sadaam during the Iran conflict".

It was a simply observation from my vacation.

--

Chris

 

[John Bean (UK)]

It should've been on the fourth page a day or two
ago.

It will be soon
--
John Bean [BST/GMT+1] ('British Stupid Time')

PAW 2007 Week 27:
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2321711/2/170511842/Large



Index page: http://waterfoot.smugmug.com
Latest walkabout (21 March 2007):
http://waterfoot.smugmug.com/gallery/2641073

 

[Effzeeone]

First of all, you need to remember that the locals aren't getting
paid in weak U.S. dollars that they have to convert into euros.

Here we go again with the weak American dollar... If the American dollar was so weak, then why are my local American prices not high? Is the American dollar temporarily weak or is the Euro temporarily inflated? It doen't matter, because it's obviously temporary so it still doesn't change the fact that I pay less for food and camera equipment when directly comparing the city where I live and the cities I visited. Even putting the US$-Euro ratio at 1:1, the prices would have still been significantly higher in Europe.

Second, lifestyle and what constitutes "necessities" influence cost
of living. You may think that transportation costs more in Europe
because fuel and cars are more expensive, but a family of two adults
and two teenagers in (for example) Stockholm, Zurich, or Paris isn't
likely to have as many cars as a comparable American family requires,
simply because decent public transportation is far more likely to be
available.

I didn't price cars in Europe, and simply noticed in passing that petrol was almost as much per liter over there as it is per gallon over here. However, it's a chicken or the egg scenario -- does a better public transportation system negate the need for personal vehicles or is it the much higher price of personal vehicles that forced an improved offering of public transportation? But that is not what generated my original observation. What generated my original observation was the price of groceries and restaurant meals (and no, not just at the European McDonalds) -- you can't get any more of a necessity than food. Camera equipment is not a necessity, but at the prices I saw it is far more of a luxury than in the USA. You cannot get any more basic necessity than food and shelter, and food was much higher priced than in my home town, and real estate was exponentially more expensive. I own a 3,000 sq ft home on 3/4 an acre of land. That type of home would be completely unaffordable by 99% of the population in the cities I visited, but it's a simple middle class purchase in my neck of the woods.

Third, what does the cost of a meal in a tourist restaurant have to
do with the price of cameras?

Apparently, there is a very strong correlation, as the camera shop with the 1,000+ Euro E-500 kit was two shops down from the local sidewalk cafe with the US$14 breakfast. Maybe the breakfast prices are inflated so that the two shop owners can do an even trade on services (Breakfast for a month traded for an E400 two-lens kit).

SIDE NOTE: Misconceptions are common on both sides of the Atlantic.
When my American son was studying in Edinburgh, his flatmates wanted
to know how many guns our family owned. (They found it hard to
believe that we didn't have any. But hey--shooting off ammo all the
time costs money that could be spent on things like baked goods and
cameras!)

Yeah, Mr. Sweden OlyFlyer has already brought this innocent observation around to comparing the price of a danish to accidental gun deaths. Not quite sure how it got to that, but...

--

Chris