Fuji has one long term goal - that is to position their sensor as the market leader. So far, the best road to this goes via Nikon. Unfortunately Nikon did not get it yet, but Sony might give them a lesson within a year or two...
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S3 production axed, new dslr coming
- Thread starter Knockmore
- Start date
Okay, so the next question becomes, can you take a Nikon mount out
Getting all F-Mounts lenses to work would be harder, the newer AF-S ones are easier, screw mount - hard. In other words getting little motors to talk the same language is achievable, redesigning a focus system for screw drive much harder, and expensive.
Some time back Sigma would convert SA to EOS, or the other way around, by rechipping. People have done this on their own, getting EOS lenses to work on Sigma bodies.
As you stated above, it is a commitment of resources, Fuji does not seem to be committing, but they have hammered Kodak on the printing (Frontier) side. Once Kodak is extinguished they can reallocate resources.
Without a lens system to add to revenue, Fuji has a harder hill to climb. Fuji does make excellent optics, some of the best.
People seem to forget the pot of money is only so big.
It should not be that hard to put a Canon mount on a Fuji body. Sigma did it for Kodak. Sigma, Tokina and Tamron have reverse engineered the lens side. Doing the body side should not be that much tougher, whether its F-mount to EOS or the other way around.
Getting all F-Mounts lenses to work would be harder, the newer AF-S ones are easier, screw mount - hard. In other words getting little motors to talk the same language is achievable, redesigning a focus system for screw drive much harder, and expensive.
Some time back Sigma would convert SA to EOS, or the other way around, by rechipping. People have done this on their own, getting EOS lenses to work on Sigma bodies.
As you stated above, it is a commitment of resources, Fuji does not seem to be committing, but they have hammered Kodak on the printing (Frontier) side. Once Kodak is extinguished they can reallocate resources.
Without a lens system to add to revenue, Fuji has a harder hill to climb. Fuji does make excellent optics, some of the best.
People seem to forget the pot of money is only so big.
It takes too much effort to back engineer the whole system and create a whole new one... for the amount of cameras that Fujifilm is likely to sell.
Also, note that the EF-s lenses that Canon now sells are intended only to work on bodies with crop sensors, so if Fujifilm wanted to produce a camera that could mount these lenses theny they would have to buy EF-s mount bodies (300D, 350D, 400D, 20D, 30D), none of which are very inexpensive.
I can think of no reasonable argument for Fujifilm to make an EF or EF-s mount camera, without the full cooperation of Canon.... and that is not likely.
-gt
Also, note that the EF-s lenses that Canon now sells are intended only to work on bodies with crop sensors, so if Fujifilm wanted to produce a camera that could mount these lenses theny they would have to buy EF-s mount bodies (300D, 350D, 400D, 20D, 30D), none of which are very inexpensive.
I can think of no reasonable argument for Fujifilm to make an EF or EF-s mount camera, without the full cooperation of Canon.... and that is not likely.
-gt
Fuji bought parts from Nikon, not an entire working body. You have to remember every dollar counts. Its more than just parts, in fact the main cost is R&D. This has to be spread out with volume.
If Fuji spent the money, they could make their own body and use any and all mounts they wanted.
Nothing is impossible - it is just expensive.
What ever they made would have to be superior to the D2X, D200, 1DMKIIS, 5D, and maybe the Sigma SD14 OR it would have to cost less in amount that the value proposition warrants the purchase.
W/O their own mount, Fuji has to compete head on with Nikon, just for F-Mount users. If the price and performance of either of these two is not greater than Canon - a mount switch.
Tough choices. So, by buying Nikon parts, Fuji can play in the sensor field and do so with limited resources. In the end, sensor technology is the most costly.
Anastigmat
Forum Pro
Good point. Just like Honda does with the Accord at the end of every product cycle. Makes some LE versions and sell them at a higher price.
Anastigmat
Forum Pro
Canon let Kodak used film bodies for DSLR cameras for years. Canon may sell the bodies but they just don't sell the sensors. Anyhow, Canon camera bodies are not held in as high esteem as Nikon camera bodies. Even Pentax may be better at building camera bodies than Canon.
Sigma is famous for reverse engineering lens mounts and flashes to avoid paying royalties. Even Pentax threw Sigma a curve by making the K100D incompatible with existing Sigma P-TTL flashes.
Of course we must remind ourselves that these leaks are most likely just unfounded rumors. In hindsight, some of these were way off and some remarkably accurate.
Anthony32599
Veteran Member
I disagree. People who disassembled S1pro and S2pro cameras discovered plenty of leftover film components still inside, if their reports are to be believed. Whatever Fujifilm bought, it was more than simply a body shell.
You are right about the investment part--it's simply a cost/benefit analysis question.
Anthony
check out my blog at http://anthonyonphotography.blogspot.com
You are right about the investment part--it's simply a cost/benefit analysis question.
Anthony
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check out my blog at http://anthonyonphotography.blogspot.com
Anthony32599
Veteran Member
It actually might be hard since theoretically, you wouldn't want to make two distinct bodies. The logical thing to do would be to have a body that could be used for both mounts, simply by switching the lens mounting part. However, given the fact that all Canon lenses have motors and their own set of specialized chips, the theoretical camera now has to have firmware to deal with this...which means different electrical boards. So, your theoretical body that could be adapted would have some shared systems--AF, metering--and some that are unique due to the lens mount, like power systems, firmware chips to talk to the lens, etc.
This doesn't sound very practical to me at all..because it increases the engineering problems, support and maintenance problems, and developmental problems.
Given that Sigma's mount probably used Canon's as a starting point, it's not surprising that they could simply rechip. But Nikon's mount is fundamentally different, as its lineage goes back to manual focus days and is deliberately backward compatible. I don't think it's as simple as simply rechipping to go from a Nikon-mount camera to a Canon-EOS-mount as you imply in the EOS to Sigma example.
Nor do I agree with you on the idea that the engineering Fujifilm needs to do is in creating their own body. Sigma has already shown how silly this is with a second-class camera. Where Fujifilm needs to focus their engineering is on things like developing better read/write speeds, useful compressed file formats, bigger buffers, sync speeds, self-cleaning sensors, etc. I don't see the need for Fujifilm to reinvent the wheel by making their own SLR cameras from scratch.
Anthony
check out my blog at http://anthonyonphotography.blogspot.com
This doesn't sound very practical to me at all..because it increases the engineering problems, support and maintenance problems, and developmental problems.
Given that Sigma's mount probably used Canon's as a starting point, it's not surprising that they could simply rechip. But Nikon's mount is fundamentally different, as its lineage goes back to manual focus days and is deliberately backward compatible. I don't think it's as simple as simply rechipping to go from a Nikon-mount camera to a Canon-EOS-mount as you imply in the EOS to Sigma example.
Nor do I agree with you on the idea that the engineering Fujifilm needs to do is in creating their own body. Sigma has already shown how silly this is with a second-class camera. Where Fujifilm needs to focus their engineering is on things like developing better read/write speeds, useful compressed file formats, bigger buffers, sync speeds, self-cleaning sensors, etc. I don't see the need for Fujifilm to reinvent the wheel by making their own SLR cameras from scratch.
Anthony
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check out my blog at http://anthonyonphotography.blogspot.com
We seem to be going around in circles attempting to clarify the misquoting or misunderstanding of each other, or both.
Bottom line is that no one has any evidence to justify any of the theories in this debate. Everything is speculation.
Some people may have more informed or intelligent reasoning due to their experience and close knowledge of Fuji/Nikon and the industry. I respect that.
All that some of us are doing is wishing or wondering. The current wonder for me is are we going to see more of the same, ie. some variant of the previous models/bodies with nothing radial, or are we going to see something innovative, radical and surprising?
Common sense says we should accept the view of the industry experts and not expect too much, but the dreamers among us are asking, what if, would they, could they?
Articles like the one that started this thread fuel the hopes of the dreamers.
Time will tell. Let's hope it isn't too long.
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Wolf Cry
Bernie Ess
Veteran Member
After all I have been told by people who already held the camera in their hands lately, we will not see something radical, but a certain evolution of the previous models, which of course means different body because the old one is no longer available.
I also believe that following the "Fuji pattern", at least ONE feature will be very dissappointing. I have my idea about this, but I wont tell... (if you dont know what I mean, think of the S3 - and S2 they had more than 1 dissappointing feature, or the F30: Great sensor but no fast lens and beginners body).
Bottom of the line: No magic, just normal marketing and product politics - a bit more technology for more money we are meant to spend.
And I forgot: Part of the deception may also concern the date of announcement
Bernie
Or hopefully they have understood finally that even the dSLR segment has been rapidly moving with rather fast product cyckles, it does not help rushing a product with some known Achilles heel like the slow write with CF cards in S3 (that is double as fast with high speed xD cards, that are not faster than fastest CF cards). If they take the time to fix those inconveniences the next model might be a real success. I still hope the sensor will be FF...
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Osku
Bernie Ess
Veteran Member
But it won't. This is about the most certain fact of all Fuji facts.
But of course you may hope if you like hoping
Maybe some day Canon will produce a sensor with deeper colors and bayer- less. I guess this is more likely to happen than a Fuji FF.
Zarathustra
Senior Member
Or
D. Fuji making money by selling bodies with their sensors for the Nikon, Canon and 4/3 mounts.
They can leverage on their unique advantage of quality sensor manufacturer.
All they have to do is develop state of the art bodies and repurpose that technology on every mount they make.
With the rapid pace of newer/better sensors, digital camera bodies are being purchased/replaced at a faster pace than lenses.
Lenses as everybody knows have been the proverbial cash cow for camera manufacturers since the film days.
But perhaps digital is changing all that.
Digital bodies is probably where the money is going to be made.
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Thus spoke Zarathustra, amen.
D
David Martin
Guest
Is that all?
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Regards,
DaveMart
'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
Zarathustra
Senior Member
Yeah, I knowIs that all?
But it doesn't make sense to invest lots of money in R&D for a Pro body with Pro everything, if it is going to be used in just one camera i.e S4 for a limited Nikon mount market.
To maximize returns in investments the best is to sell those bodies in all the flavors they can.
Just like Sigma is doing with their lenses.
They tweek a few things here and there, a new market opens up.
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Thus spoke Zarathustra, amen.
It seems more likely it will be DX but one can hope for better...But it won't. This is about the most certain fact of all Fuji facts.
But of course you may hope if you like hoping
I am rather certain that both will happen in time, but Fuji is more likely to have a bayerless sensor first (since it has had it patented a year already and a has a small size&res. sample working in lab). I do not understand why Fuji would not finally end up making larger sensors. It had a 22MP back in Japanese market with S3 technology when S3 came out, about 30k USD each and I am not certain how long did they manufacture it (some say it naver made it to the market but I recall reading there were samples around and that some were delivered, but I am not sure... never been in Japan and never seen one, but all the time that product was said to be for the Japanese market only).
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Osku
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
If that is their goal, then they might want to explore actually getting the sensor into the hands of more than a few tens of thousands of users while their competitors are shipping millions.
From a set of goals, you develop strategies. Fujifilm has no clear strategy (and I'm not sure they have a clear goal as you seem to think).
Sony's goal so far appears to get 20% or more of the DSLR market. Their strategy appears to be some variant of "do the same thing as Nikon." Also not a clear strategy.
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Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
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