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will I be happy with a 20D?

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The 20D will give you the SLR flexibility that you have been missing photographically speaking (Lens choice, AF Speed, Exposure control and latitude).

With digital you also have access to a flexibility that wasn't so easy to come by in the film days in the darkroom. That flexibility is there and can allow you to mimic alot of the capabilities of the old fashioned darkroom but the 20d doesn't require this in order to use it.

In fact if you want punchy, high contrast, high saturation, highly sharpened JPEGs right out of the camera you can set the 20d to generate those via parameter settings. It will give you what you like for ease of use but most on this forum seek to push it a little further by reducing in camera jpg settings or completely ignoring them to gain the flexibility offerd by RAW image format which is terrific but requires post processing.

The 20d is extremely flexible and I bet you will be thrilled coming from your P&S with your Pentax background. As an SLR the 20d gives you what you miss about that Pentax and alot more due to it's digital film.

--
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jflynnpa
 
Royta

You sound just like me, and I bought a 20D. For what they're worth, my views are -

1.) People on this site are fantastic and highly knowledgeable, but they operate with abilities and expectations way beyond the man in the street. What's good to them is perfection to others, and even their unnaceptable is fine to most mortals...

2.) You have lived with the imperfections of film until now - the bit of overexposure, the slight out of focus, the touch of lens flare. At very worst (to your eyes at least) you will be no worse off. The benefit is that you can shoot 100 and keep 1, increasing your learning at a rate way beyond what was possible before

3.) The camera is a joy to use, and nothing I tested came close to the spec and feel

4.) PSE is fine for what little you will NEED to do, and that is very little indeed. Get involved with the whole processing scene and you may wish one day to upgrade, but that is the future not now

The only warning I would give is the mine field of colour management. Sounds like you are avoiding part by not printing your own pictures, but you will still need to play with calibrations (and maybe invest in a little software / hardware) to get a true and exact image on the screen

In short, if you can afford it without too much sacrifice go buy. You are more likely to regret having not bought it than regretting having bought it...

Dom
 
Thanks Jim. You win the prize for having the best "feel good" answer.

I have spent exactly 0 minutes in a dark room. Maybe I lucked out with good pictures taken on film because I wasn't the person processing the film. I'm hoping I can continue lucking out by not spending too much time in the digital dark room. A few minutes spent on sharpening is OK I guess.

Will I have a problem getting the parameter settings you talk about from users on this forum, or will they tell me I'm an idiot for buying the 20D and not spending time on the desktop, post processing the image?

Thanks.

Roy
 
I find that I can be very happy with one of the 'auto' functions in Elements when it comes to basic post processing. I am in the habit now of hitting Auto Smart-Fix, or Auto-Levels just to see what it does for the photo. If I like it, then I am done with post-processing, unless I am trying to do something in particular, or have some issues to correct in the image.

Yes, I can spend a hell of a lot more time tweaking my photos, and often do, but I don't always need to put that much effort to get an acceptable image.
 
tweaks your film shots for you. There is a filter on the DSLR that softens the image unless you really crank up the sharpening in camera and shoot jpgs.

I suspect you won't be happy, but when your kids start playing sports, you will need a DSLR to do the job.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o.

I keep trying to find an artist's eye in the B & H catalog

 
Photoshop is a real time and money sink. It costs you $600 just to get into the game (well, $300 with the 20D PE2.0 upgrade path), plus $200 or so for monitor calibration, $50 for a Photoshop book, and lots of optional but recommended things like extra RAM, neatimage, qimage, etc. Plus many hours learning how to use it all. I'm a photo geek but for a very long time balked at outlaying that kind of money and effort. But not I'm in, and hooked :-)

If you are going to print out your pictures yourself and don't want to get that deep, I'd suggest just getting an HP 8450 printer, which produces good prints with no calibration, and if you want to kick up the sharpness or color you can do that in the printer driver. You can even have the printer driver do things like redeye removal which I as a photoshop addict would never suggest.
 
royta said:
Want to justify the 20D? No, not me. I guess a few minutes worth
of work spent on the shots you can quickly tell are worth the time,
wouldn't be that big of a deal.
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That's exactly right. I shoot in RAW then have Breezebrowser create proofs for me through an automated process. This process resizes the picture to 1024x683 (or whatever the corresponding height is,) applies a little sharpening, and a bit of contrast and saturation boost. From these, I can tell the ones that are worthy of the "full" treatment. Those are the ones on which I make the adjustments that I mentioned earlier. And honestly it's fun making the shots look just like you want them to. Once you get used to it you will have a level of control that you have never had before and you'll wonder how you did without it.
royta said:
From what I read from another
user, Photoshop Elements should be enough to post process the shot.
Or maybe that's just the way I read it.
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Absolutely. Elements does plenty for 95% of the digital photographers out there.

I didn't mean to be harsh before but I want to make sure you understand what you are getting into and setting your expectations at a realistic level. I'm not one to sugar coat things or give "feel good" answers, especially when someone is spending the kind of money you are talking about. You came here looking for honest advice and that is what I have attempted to provide. I don't want to scare you away from a digital SLR either. They are fantastic tools but they require more work on the back end than p&s digitals and anyone who tells you different is either living on another planet or their standards aren't as high as most DSLR owners. But if you are willing to learn a bit and take the time to process the keepers, you'll be rewarded with fantastic shots that no p&s digital can touch. Just don't fall into the trap of comparing the straight out of the camera pictures from the 20D and your p&s side by side and saying "I spent how much for THIS?" Instead, learn the ins and outs of post processing and then compare the p&s to your final product from the 20D and you'll say "I paid for THIS!"

Good luck
Todd
--
Todd Walker
http://www.toddwalker.net
http://www.twphotography.net
http://www.pbase.com/twalker294

 
I forgot to tell you that I got started in digital with a G2. Then got a 10d and now also have a 20d. The G2 is an excellent camera but the DSLRs are much better. There is no comparison, especially in speed of operation and low high iso noise. You won't regret getting one.
Julio
 
As people have pointed out - your film had the tweaks too - you just didn't do it.

However, you can do 'process multiple files' in PS Elements and tell it to do all the fixes (except things like cropping and cloning etc of course) automatically. Also, many of the online printers have a box you can check so they take care of it just like your old film days. The results may not be optimum, but if you take care in-camera, should be pretty good.

The image quality and focus speed will be directly related to the quality of the lens(es) you buy - get a good one.

I guess getting a dslr would seem a bit of overkill for somebody who doesn't want to mess with their images. On the other hand it would give you DOF control as you mentioned, and much improved frame speed and focus speed - so should work ok. Cindy

--
royta said:
royta said:
royta said:
My Photo-A-Day for a Year Gallery Here: http://www.pbase.com/cindyd/2005
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Formerly half of 1ofUs or 1ofUs!
The other half of 'Us' is now 'Lensbaby'
 
I have the camera and have been reading the instruction booklet, am almost 1/3 of the way through and it is too much!

I need some parameters to get started with the kits lens and the 28-135 I have ordered that will take awhile to get in stock.

Somebody suggested parameter 1. I also want center point focussing. I will be starting out in jpeg medium or the closest equivalent of my 4mp p&s sizewise. I don't want the compressed; I will choose fine. What else do I need to set besides the date/time?

I will be wanting to try the auto sets (the cute little icons) but am not going to like them unless they are better than I think they will be. I will want to get to aperture priority as soon as I get a little handle on thingsl and can find my way through all the menus, buttons, lens settings, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, I need to start as simple as possible and work from there.
 
royta said:
That's exactly what I would be doing. Cropping, saving to JPEG,
burning to a CD, and going to the local Fotomat.
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Then you really should just be shooting with a film SLR...I'm not sure why anyone would buy a DSLR and not use photoshop and then go to their local photoshop to butcher the digital prints... Let me tell you how in theory you are supposed to be shooting digital and you can decide on whether or not it is worth it.

1. Canon makes the raw file so the end user (YOU) can make the final adjustments depending on whether it is going for print, or web, or whatever. They cannot make a "single" perfect image, because they have no clue what you are going to use it for. For example, a photo that is going to be printed on an ink jet printer needs to be sharpened even more than what you would like to see on your monitor...why? because of the simple fact that the ink dots spill a little on the paper. Go to Adobe's website and they have entire tutorials on how to use sharpening for your specific printer...and every printer is a little different, so you have to learn how much sharpening to apply depending on the printer.

2. Every printer handles black levels a little differently, some more advanced ones have multiple shades of black. How your printer handles black levels determines the adjustments you make on your photo.

3. color: what you see on you monitor is NOT what you always get from your printer. There are many methods to calibrate your monitor using a spyder like monaco. Most of us who shoot with a DSLR care about the colors of our photos and use something like this to make sure the colors on the screen are true and accurate: http://www.xritephoto.com/product/optixxr/

This doesn't even begin to touch on all the changes you are supposed to be making on your photos to make them look good using photoshop. If you have no intention of digitally touching up your images, let the lab just develop your film negatives. You'll get better results that way.
 
royta said:
I just don't want to have to do major work to a picture in order to
make it worthy of having an 8x10 printed for me. Shouldn't I be
able to do this with just the camera?
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You certainly can do that...your 8x10 won't look nearly as good as my 8x10 since I will have taken the time to properly adjust it. But, if you are not picky about how your photo looks, you certainly can just print out what the camera gives you. That is why they put that jpeg mode on the camera. Go through and make sure you read about all the posts on this forum regarding unhappy users who bought the 20D and expected it to magically make a perfect photo for them. I'm betting in a couple months we'll see a post like that from you...you are fitting the profile of the type of person who posts here about how they are unhappy with their purchase. Stick with film and just have the local store make a CD from your negatives.
 
The more I read your post, the more I think that getting the latest
AF film camera is the way to go for you.

Still nothing is as straight forward as shooting film and getting it developed at your favorite one hour photo lab.

All digital images need tweaking, some a lot, others not that much. Film images also need tweaking too. But that is easily accomplished by the highly advanced (tried and true) automation built in modern mini labs.

If you don't want to spend time in front of the computer, then, I think you'll be better set with an advanced autofocus film slr. Get the latest Elan and one or two nice "L" zooms.

Regards

Ed
 
It sounds like the film pictures that I thought looked good to me, would more than likely look like terrible to the rest of you. I've got a strong hunch that the digital pictures that I think look fine to me, would look just as bad as my film pictures did. Will my pictures turn out like the yours? Doubtful. Will my pictures be suitable for publishing? Certainly not. But the fact that what I'll see in the viewfinder is exactly what the sensor is seeing, practically pegs my fun meter right there. :)

I'm really not interested in purchasing film, taking 24 pictures and throwing away 20 of them because they're not "good enough". I've used digital for the past four to five years. I've been "happy enough" with the pictures I have been taking. What I haven't been happy with is not being able to look through the lens when setting up for the shot. From reading the responses to my original post, I've come to grips that I am going to have to do at least some post processing with a 20D. It doesn't sound like a whole lot more work than the cropping and resizing I have done in the past.
 
When I was doing research before purchasing my 20D, I looked at the Digital Rebel.... I picked the 20D because of the burst rate, higher mega-pixel range (before the Digital Rebel XT came out) and because of post-processing (I wanted to more). From my understanding of the Digital Rebel - it does more for you than you'd get with the 20D. Perhaps others could say if this is true or not - but I'd look at maybe getting one of those instead of the 20D if that's what your preference is.

Good luck - and have fun!

--
Jennifer
http://www.pbase.com/jhanson
 
Well said, the thing about going digital is that half the fun is doing the postprocessing work. I've enjoyed learning about PhotoShop as much as I've learned understanding SLR photography basics when I started out. Again, as most people said here, you may just get Adobe Photoshop Elements 3.0 (~$100) and do minimal PP by applying levels, curves, shadows/highlights and sharpening whenever needed, and before you know it, you'll be wanting to learn as much as you want about PP once you've realized the power behind it. You decide how your final image is going to look, now isn't that what we all want - control.

--
Nino
 
Hi,

my first camera was an analogue SLR and then I bought an IXUS v3.

The IXUS is a nice cam with good picture quality, but I missed the creative possibilities. What I also missed was the "SLR-feeling". In my experience you concentrate a lot more on your motif when looking through the viewfinder than you do with a P&S camera.

I can also tell you that the pics out of the cam are sharp enough to keep them without post-processing (I set the sharpness parameter to +1). When people are telling you that nearly all the pictures posted are post-processed, this in my experience has one good reason: the pics worth posting are real "jewels" to you and you will want to get the most out of the pictures.

I have my 20D for about a month now and already have around 15 of such "jewels". With my IXUS I had less than 5 in two years.

Best regards,
darkcookie
 
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