20D not better than a 10D???

[Jolly166020]

I am excited too. Until now I was still shooting film underwater (film EOS and Nikonos).

You are right, it's annoying when cameras upgrade. Every new camera has slightly different buttons so that they won't fit into the old housing anymore.

Only the complete 1D series is constant. But the prices for 1D housings are somehow biased by the camera price ))))

to upgrade for me personally ...



my 10D goes to 90m. This type of housing is not available for the
20D for the time being. And when it comes available I would not
invest several thousand bucks for a 20D and the corresponding
housing. I really can not use a camera which locks up underwater. I
simply can not remove the battery to reset in 30meters depth
I know the 20D might not lockup anymore. But I feel more
comfortable taking down my proven 10D where I know it doesn't
freeze.

E-TTL II? I don't care this minor upgrade as there is only an E-TTL
converter available for amphibic strobes for the 10D, not the 20D
yet (except Ikelite, plastic housings).

In other words: personal preferences are soooo different. To some
the upgrade is not worth the money. And for me, it would be a huge
step backwards right now.

regards,

Julian

--
Regards,
A

 

[Jolly166020]

you have well observed

And you have had TTL strobes lasting for years.

Steve B.

to upgrade for me personally ...



my 10D goes to 90m. This type of housing is not available for the
20D for the time being. And when it comes available I would not
invest several thousand bucks for a 20D and the corresponding
housing. I really can not use a camera which locks up underwater. I
simply can not remove the battery to reset in 30meters depth
I know the 20D might not lockup anymore. But I feel more
comfortable taking down my proven 10D where I know it doesn't
freeze.

E-TTL II? I don't care this minor upgrade as there is only an E-TTL
converter available for amphibic strobes for the 10D, not the 20D
yet (except Ikelite, plastic housings).

In other words: personal preferences are soooo different. To some
the upgrade is not worth the money. And for me, it would be a huge
step backwards right now.

regards,

Julian

--
Regards,
A

 

[Wild-Mike]

Everyone in my family is certified so I was really interested in seeing some of your photographs of marine life. I went to your site and only found one underwater photo

Where can I see some of you shots? A friend of mine went to Truk Lagoon in October and came back with some really awesome shots.

Too bad those housing are so-o-o-o expensive. BTW ...not one lockup with my 20D, but that would suck to have any problem underwater. I've had to return to a dive boat because of equipment before and that sucks.

Regards,
Mike

--
Gallery:
http://tkis.com/mike/

 

[Steve Balcombe]

... typical (excessive) depreciation in value
over such a short period of time which seems to be the NORM with
Digital Cameras of ALL kinds and Brands.

But the depreciation occurs because, as has been pointed out in countless threads, digital camera bodies are advancing much faster, and the advances have more effect on the image, than ever was the case with film. The only way to prevent this, and thus preserve people's investments, is to artificially hold back development - which doesn't get my vote!

Steve B.

 

[Jolly166020]

Hi Mike,

Almost all of the few photos I do have online (it's still difficult for me to build/extend the online gallery) were shot digitally. Until now I have used film cameras uw. I've bought a slide scanner but it is really annoying to me scanning slides.

Just have bought the 10D housing in december and looking forward to get it wet next trip in feb.

If your family is completely certified you really should consider housing a cam

At least a point n shoot (Canon S60 for example) housing for 200 bucks for starting They are really good for the money.

regards,

Julian

Everyone in my family is certified so I was really interested in
seeing some of your photographs of marine life. I went to your site
and only found one underwater photo

Where can I see some of you shots? A friend of mine went to Truk
Lagoon in October and came back with some really awesome shots.

Too bad those housing are so-o-o-o expensive. BTW ...not one lockup
with my 20D, but that would suck to have any problem underwater.
I've had to return to a dive boat because of equipment before and
that sucks.

Regards,
Mike

--
Gallery:
http://tkis.com/mike/

 

[Jolly166020]

Just saw you have a S45, how about a housing for it?

Almost all of the few photos I do have online (it's still difficult
for me to build/extend the online gallery) were shot digitally.
Until now I have used film cameras uw. I've bought a slide scanner
but it is really annoying to me scanning slides.
Just have bought the 10D housing in december and looking forward to
get it wet next trip in feb.

If your family is completely certified you really should consider
housing a cam
At least a point n shoot (Canon S60 for example) housing for 200
bucks for starting They are really good for the money.

regards,

Julian

Everyone in my family is certified so I was really interested in
seeing some of your photographs of marine life. I went to your site
and only found one underwater photo

Where can I see some of you shots? A friend of mine went to Truk
Lagoon in October and came back with some really awesome shots.

Too bad those housing are so-o-o-o expensive. BTW ...not one lockup
with my 20D, but that would suck to have any problem underwater.
I've had to return to a dive boat because of equipment before and
that sucks.

Regards,
Mike

--
Gallery:
http://tkis.com/mike/

 

[Wild-Mike]

Just saw you have a S45, how about a housing for it?

I will get one before my next dive!

Thanks
Mike

--
Gallery:
http://tkis.com/mike/

 

[Larz Yerxa]

What many people don't seem to understand what I mean is
that a camera that does more of what you expect it to, is more
valuable as a working camera.

I think this critical point was overlooked in the discussion. I'm not sure the majority of people "work" their gear to the same degree as you and perhaps were not thinking in those terms. To the average joe, the post processing to obtain an acceptable shot might not be an issue, but someone shooting the volume you do would be handcuffed with gear that cannot meet your demands. I think the 20D is "better" in that it comes closer to meeting your needs than the 10D, where the 10D satisfies the less prolific shooters who don't have the same demands or needs as you. Perhaps "more suitable" would be a more appropriate term. I also think someone who shoots 2000 shots per session is more likely to ferret out any shortcomings.

Larz

 

[Diane B]

In summary, it is my opinion that perhaps all that now have the 10d
would be pleased to now have the 20d if they did NOT already have
the 10d along with the typical (excessive) depreciation in value
over such a short period of time which seems to be the NORM with
Digital Cameras of ALL kinds and Brands. Also, the other items
that have been purchased and may be used ONLY with the 10d is
another serious consideration.
In other words, the present 20d pricing is rather close to what the
10d was when it was new. However, I have not observed that the
features now supplied with the 20d are NOT an improvement over the
10d and I don't believe the present 10d owners are implying that to
be the main reason for not changing to the 20d.
Those consumers (regardless of the usage of their Cameras) that do
NOT have either the 10d or the 20d will (in my opinion) be very
pleased to pick the 20d over the 10d even at the CURRENT comparable
NEW pricing after the obvious degraded pricing of the 10d's that
are in inventory.

If I was coming from my D60, I would probably buy the 20D. As it was, I finally bought the 10D primarily for the higher lower noise ISO, the more neutral color, and a few other options. I really had intended to buy the 'new' cam after PHotokina and sell the 10D quickly---but discovered that the 10D was a good 'stopgap' camera doing all I need now---and knowing I wanted more than the 20D offered. Consequently, I decided to NOT take the financial hit, enjoy the 10D since it really does what I need----and wait for a body closer to what I really want. For anyone upgrading from a D30, D60 or coming from a digicam of any type---or new to a DSLR---there would be no reason I can think of that would keep me from buying a 20D if it was financially feasible.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[Diane B]

Vernon,

How can we have a debate over this issue if you are going to
provide such a reasonable and intelligent answer. Now you have
ruined this thread with your common sense!

Please try to refrain from future intelligent responses.

Thanks
Mike

--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[Diane B]

... typical (excessive) depreciation in value
over such a short period of time which seems to be the NORM with
Digital Cameras of ALL kinds and Brands.

But the depreciation occurs because, as has been pointed out in
countless threads, digital camera bodies are advancing much faster,
and the advances have more effect on the image, than ever was the
case with film. The only way to prevent this, and thus preserve
people's investments, is to artificially hold back development -
which doesn't get my vote!

Steve B.

I'm for moving on quickly--before I 'age out' of photography LOL. My answer is to hang onto the camera bodies that are working for me, taking a hit on those that aren't (when I buy my next body I will have to make the decision as to which one to sell--D60 or 10D---and keep the D30 because it will be not worth enough to make it worth selling--yet still performs MUCH better than a 3MP digicam and my husband enjoys using it).

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[silent_man]

I read somewhere that Canon will be sticking with their current lineup, eventually upgrading the models. Crop factors will remain 1.6x, 1.3x and Full Frame. Expect other features to stay like they are now. Canon has a great lineup right now:

4. Prosumer / Advanced Amateur: 300D Rebel > > 6.3 megapixels, 1.6x crop factor, crippled features, plastic body and low price.

3. Advanced Amateur / General Use Pro: 20D > > 8.2 megapixels, 1.6x crop factor, full of features, good build and fair price.

2. Photojournalism: 1D Mark II > > 8.2 megapixels, 1.3x crop factor, zillion features, machine gun, tank build, durable as a rock, expensive.

1. Commercial: 1Ds Mark II > > 16.7 megapixels, full frame, resolution and image quality above all, VERY expensive.

20D is an incremental upgrade of the 10D, not a "quantum leap". I
seldomly shoot action, and the main advantage of the 20D over the
10D mainly falls on speed.

The 8MP sensor is starting to be an overkill for most casual
shooters. 3MP is all you need for 8x10 prints. 6MP can bring up a
very decent 16x24 print. 8MP will guarantee a 24x36. I have made
one 16x20 print all these years. Yes, you record more details on a
high-pixel sensor, but if you never print enlargements, it matters
less. I can see another argument that a larger sensor will give
you more a greater margin for cropping.

Okay - the great advancement in the 20D is Canon's new 9-point AF
sensor that is actually more sensitive, and therefore, more precise
than the older 7-point AF sensor.

From Canon's own technical report:
"The EOS 20D features a newly developed 9-point AF sensor. The
center AF point is a high-precision cross-type sensor compatible
with f/2.8 large aperture lenses (vertical line-sensitive at f/2.8,
horizontal and vertical line-sensitive at f/5.6). The eight other
AF points are sensitive to f/5.6 (horizontal line-sensitive at top
and bottom focusing points, vertical line-sensitive at the other
six points), which is standard sensitivity for the EOS series.
The baselength of the center AF point sensor sensitive to f/2.8 is
twice as long as f/5.6 compatible sensors. Also, all sensors
sensitive to f/5.6 except for the top and bottom focusing points
have a 30% longer baselength than the EOS 10D, assuring more
accurate AF. In addition, the EOS 20D offers improved low-light AF
performance by extending the focusing range in low light by 1-stop
to EV-0.5 to 18. This is one stop better than the EOS 10D."

The new 9-point AF sensor brings up low-light focusing ability by
one-stop. All AF points have longer base-length than those found
in the 7-point AF sensor. This explains why the 20D is more
capable of autofocus than the 10D. Canon did not say whether it
has also dedicated more processor power to AI Servo (predictive
autofocus tracking).

I am predicting that AI Servo only sees a marginal improvement.
The high frame rate requires AF to work harder on continuous
shooting. At 20D price level, Canon won't be putting gadgetry in
the body. I assume that will come in the 30D.

Another significant advancement is the adaptation of the DIGIC II
imagining engine that ties all circuitry together more efficiently.
Higher efficiency, lower power consumption and higher speed.

Other things are really, to me, cosmetic changes. The joystick is
useful, but it's like a gimmick, and I hope it doesn't break
easily. White balance bracketing... I don't know who actually
would use it frequently...

I prefer capturing architecture, still-live, landscape and
portraits. Speed is not a priority (I take my time); therefore, I
don't need a 20D. Although I yearn for the instant startup, I can
wait for the next upgrade for that.

So Diane, I hope our patience would pay off. I really hope that
the 30D has new imaging sensor with 1.3x crop factor - making it a
true ELAN/EOS 3 hybrid. The EOS 1D line will be entirely
full-frame.

-- Bill

 

[Juli Valley]

Vernon,

How can we have a debate over this issue if you are going to
provide such a reasonable and intelligent answer. Now you have
ruined this thread with your common sense!

Please try to refrain from future intelligent responses.

Thanks
Mike

--
I keep trying to find an artist's eye in the B & H catalog.

http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/view?id=19579
Canon 2oD, Olympus C-3o4oZ.
Juli

 

[bill_ting]

Actually, Canon will stick with a 3-tier marketing plan. It will

• merge the two 1D bodies to provide one body with full frame, and
• create further distinction between the entry level (D-Rebel line) and amateur ("XX"D).

Please refer to two separate interviews of executives of the Canon Imaging Division.

http://hobday.net/canon/

http://www.e-fotografija.com/artman/publish/article_440.shtml

It will be clearer to you what plans Canon has for the next 5 years.

-- Bill

I read somewhere that Canon will be sticking with their current
lineup, eventually upgrading the models. Crop factors will remain
1.6x, 1.3x and Full Frame. Expect other features to stay like they
are now. Canon has a great lineup right now:

4. Prosumer / Advanced Amateur: 300D Rebel > > 6.3 megapixels, 1.6x
crop factor, crippled features, plastic body and low price.

3. Advanced Amateur / General Use Pro: 20D > > 8.2 megapixels, 1.6x
crop factor, full of features, good build and fair price.

2. Photojournalism: 1D Mark II > > 8.2 megapixels, 1.3x crop factor,
zillion features, machine gun, tank build, durable as a rock,
expensive.

1. Commercial: 1Ds Mark II > > 16.7 megapixels, full frame,
resolution and image quality above all, VERY expensive.

 

[Steve Mills38027]

but you really have mentioned why some aren't making the upgrade.
The things where the 20D really really shines are those things that
make no difference to some people because of their style of
shooting and are willing to wait for larger differences in the
areas where it does make a difference--or at least that's what I'm
doing. I have shot with a 20D and know its a terrific camera and
like it very much---but not enough for ME to make the jump--I'll
wait yet another generation. I just have made the decision to not
upgrade each generation unless there is a big difference for my
needs--and we all know that doesn't happen generally from just a
generation's jump. 18 -24 mos isn't too long for me to wait
between, I've decided.

For your purposes---there is a big difference in what I've seen,
read and tried myself.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

Diane, you are probably right. That is why I stayed with my D60 after the 10D came out. But I made the move with the 20D, and it is truly a big improvement over the D60.
--
Steve