CMOS vs CCD sensors

[BJL]

The Canon 300D, 10D, 20D, 1D MKII and top-of-the line $8000 Canon 1Ds MKII all use CMOS sensors. So do the Kodak SLR/c and SLR/n. So does the upcoming top-of-the-line Nikon D2X.

[I deleted the discontinued D30 and D60, and one could add the Sigma DSLRs, which also use CMOS.]

On the other hand, CCD'sa re used by the new Konica-Minolta D7D, Pentax -ist DS, Fuji S3, Olympus E-300, the forthcoming Leica R digitalback for their SLR's and the Mamiya 22MP "medium format" DSLR, as do the older but still current Nikon D70 and D100, Pentax -ist D, Olympus E-1 and Fuji S2, and EVERY digital back for medium format SLR's; more current and forthcoming models than in T3's list. It is not so one side as T3 makes it out.

You can judge for yourself the Canon 20D's CMOS sensor and the Nikon D70's CCD sensor here:

These cameras are at quite different prices, with sensors of different pixel counts and different "design ages", so this comparison says very little about inherent CMOS vs CCD differences.

 

[Damian D]

In the end, judge by the photos not the technology used to produce
it.

So right!

But then why are there so many people who frequent these forums who make such a big deal out of trying to find out who the manufacturer of the sensor is? Never worked that out. At the end of the day the sensor is just one part of the image processing chain. Two manufacturers could use the same sensor and yet produce completely different end results. So as you say judge by the pictures and not the technology.

br

D

 

[BrianJF]

T3/James McPeak/Peter Phan or whaever he likes to call himself at any certain time should become a Canon spokesperson/spin doctor. He would be perfect at it. T3, go hand out on the Galbraith forums. Chuck Westfall might just hire you!!

--
Regards,
Brian
http://www.pbase.com/brianfj

 

[T3]

On the other hand, CCD'sa re used by the new Konica-Minolta D7D,
Pentax -ist DS, Fuji S3, Olympus E-300, the forthcoming Leica R
digitalback for their SLR's and the Mamiya 22MP "medium format"
DSLR, as do the older but still current Nikon D70 and D100, Pentax -ist D, Olympus E-1 and Fuji S2, and EVERY digital back for medium
format SLR's; more current and forthcoming models than in T3's
list. It is not so one side as T3 makes it out.

Nikon D100: Sony ICX413AQ CCD image chip
Nikon D70: Sony ICX413AQ CCD image chip
Pentax -IST D: Sony ICX413AQ CCD image chip
Pentax -IST DS: Sony ICX413AQ CCD image chip
Konica Minolta 7D: Sony ICX413AQ CCD image chip

Notice any similarities? What might seem like a lot of different CCD sensors really is just one Sony CCD sensor being used by several different camera models. All these cameras use the same CCD chip because none of these companies have the resources to develop their own CMOS chips. So they all buy their 6mp sensor from Sony, which has a readily available sensor that happens to be CCD. It's not exactly a new sensor, and I'm sure they'd love to buy Canon's CMOS if only Canon would sell it to them. But if you are talking about the latest in sensor design and technology, these Sony CCD's are not it. Even Sony is now using CMOS for their latest sensor, the one that is going to be used by the D2X. And that's coming from a company that has always used CCD in the past. That should tell you something!

As for Fuji, they have long used a proprietary CCD sensor (the Super CCD). But as for the S3, the performance of that sensor has yet to be seen and tested.

That leaves Oly, which does use a CCD. But their latest E-300 CCD has yet to be truly seen and tested, too.

On the other hand CMOS, and Canon's CMOS in particular, has been tested, proven, and continues to offer the cutting edge in DSLR sensor performance and technology.

 

[Seven Days]

.... or CCD v CMOS.

Well to start with both produce some fantastic pictures, notwithstanding the 4 v 8mp pixel difference.

What I see immediately is sharper pictures from my CCD with less post processing necessary in ordinarily non challenging subjects, like ducks in the park on a sunny day.

When the going gets tougher I see a split in performance and on dull overcast days I have a greater challenge getting the colours right from my CCD and I don’t seem to have enough material to shift far enough to make a colour that I like without effecting the other colours, so I found I had to do custom colour balances to get me nearer the ballpark. Since using the MKII I’ve actually forgotten how to do that as the colours are very close from the initial capture in these mucky conditions.

As the light goes down my CCD goes to bed as it is almost useless for long nighttime exposures, my Nikon D1x CCD equipped camera was exactly the same, this is not to say that the D70 is v the 20D, OK. So I never did long exposures with a CCD camera that I owned including the D100 which was much better than the D1x, but not good enough for me. The 1D Canon was the same, hopeless and it has a CCD remember.

The 10D and the MKII are CMOS equipped and they make staggering long time exposures even before employing noise reduction.

Generally between the CCD v CMOS I find my files cleaner from the CMOS but sharper from the CCD in jpeg capture (with the VERY notable exception of the D100 which is notoriously soft in JPEG capture).

So we are seeing from my experience that we won’t have an overall correlation of benefits, ie the D1x’s JPEG was sharp with CCD but the D100’s JPEG was not!!!

A lot of other benefits may be influenced from the individual cameras processing.

 

[kwtse]

CMOS are considered better mainly because they can be made bigger
and cheaper. Bigger means more light energy, and that means lower
noise at higher ISO..

Do not quite understand what you mean bigger. Do your mean the size of the whole sensor or the size of each pixel sensor.

The sensors in D70, 300D and 20D are about the same.

If you are talking about the 1Ds, it is a totally different class from the rest.

 

[Rumpis]

CMOS are considered better mainly because they can be made bigger
and cheaper. Bigger means more light energy, and that means lower
noise at higher ISO.. If someone could figure out how to make a
CCD the size of a 35mm frame, it would be a KILLER camera..
Probably in -4 years..

lrtrees wrote:

--

No need to wait. Mamiya's new medium format digital camera has CCD twice the size of 35mm frame.

Rumpis )

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

Will

dark frame subtraction is not something that is special to a specific type of sensor

Also it is generally used in longer exposures only as for shorter exposures it generally doesnt have any impact

It is simply a second exposure taken with the shutter closed to subtract the noise coming from differences between the cells on the sensor.

IMO it could be used for either CMOS or CCD

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

BJL

i didnt say it wasnt good for anything else but astrophotography

i said astrophotography is one area where CCD's are still champs.

Over the next months/years you will see most of the sensors being produced as CMOS sensors.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[hunter]

....I was a long time Nikon person, but the smooth, noise free Canon line caused me to sell my Nikon stuff and buy Canon stuff. No regrets so far! ymmv

 

[RogM]

CCD senesors used to be vastly superior to CMOS (which were noisy).
CMOS is cheaper to produce

Canon has done outstanding engineering of CMOS.

All camera sensors that I know of are MOS (metal oxide semiconductor). Cameras use MOS CCD (charge-coupled devices) that can be either of MOS or CMOS form. CMOS devices are generally more complex and occur later in the design process, since they use complementary architecture to reduce standby power demands. All the top-end digitals that I'm aware of use CMOS arrays, including the Canon EOS-1DS, Kodak 14n, 14nx and SLR/n, and now the Nikon D2X. Generally these cameras are slower on the draw than cameras with half-sized MOS sensors, but this probably has far more to do with the number of MPx involved and the associated processing time required.

 

[Champa]

Both has it's positive and negative. Just pick which name/system you want to tote around and then all would be fine...

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.
Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

 

[GWBell]

The argument is just as silly, judge the output and capabilities of the camera.

 

[BJL]

i said astrophotography is one area where CCD's are still champs.

No, you said "THE one area where CCD's are still champs ..." (emphasis added.)

with that definite article "The", you were saying that this is the ONLY area where CCD's are still champs. I think that there is clear evidence of broader strengths for CCD's.

And once it is realised that CCDs are doing very well in many more areas that astrophotography, your statement that

Over the next months/years you will see most of the sensors being produced as CMOS sensors.

becomes simply an opinion, not a conclusion supported by your arguments or evidence, and you are entitled to your opinion, so I will just say that my opinion is different, and not discuss it further.

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

BJL

again that sentence does in no way imply that CCD's can not be used for anything else.

You simply need some english lessons ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[BJL]

BJL

again that sentence does in no way imply that CCD's can not be used for anything else.
You simply need some english lessons ...

You seem to be the one in need of some English lessons: I did not say that you said that CCD's cannot be used for anything else. I said that you said that the only place where CCD is still champs is in astrophotography: in your words,

The one area where CCD's are still champs are the long exposure cooled sensors for astrophotography

I responded by pointing out that CCD is still champs in a number of other larger market sectors. To reiterate and enlarge, CCD is still champs in compact digital cameras (with CMOS digicams being only cheap low quality options), CCD is still champs in digital backs for medium and large format (where there are no CMOS competitors at all). Also CCD has about half or more of the DSLR market: the very succesful D70 in particular plus the D100 and all Fuji, Minolta, Olympus and Pentax models seem to about match or exceed the sales of the Canons, Kodaks, Sigmas and Nikon D2's.

 

[Steve Bingham]

Not the sort of blanket statement most knowledgable photographers would easily accept. Pure sales BS.

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

sure ....

whatever makes you happy ....

and next year we all switch to the 4/3 system ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[Champa]

why Sony would even bother trying to get into CMOS? when they are basically king on the CCD hill?

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.
Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

 

[marscalls]

CMOS vs CCD sounds like the car engine debate--pushrod vs overhead cam:

..........As a technology discussion — both subjects are educationally and intellectually stimulating.

..........As a debate about superiority of an integrated product — both debates are fundamentally flawed because they "beg the question" by falsely assuming all-other-factors-are-the-same.