CMOS vs CCD sensors

[lrtrees]

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the 20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.

Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

 

[Pixy]

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.
Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

Another case of beware the uneducated salesman.

Or utter rubbish.

That would explain why the latest Nikon D2X uses a CMOS sensor!!!

I believe that actually the reverse is true.

Check out the cameras reviews here.

Pixy.

 

[GWBell]

CCD senesors used to be vastly superior to CMOS (which were noisy).
CMOS is cheaper to produce

Canon has done outstanding engineering of CMOS.

In the end, judge by the photos not the technology used to produce it. Both cameras are outstanding, some will criticise Canon for their overly aggressive noise control, others will praise it for its high ISO performance.

Most scientific applications (astronomy, etc.) still use CCD due to its accuracy. But that doesn't automatically make it superior for your kind of photography.

--
What: http://www.esperanto.net
Why: http://www.esperanto.ie/english/zaft/zaft.htm
How: http://www.lernu.net

 

[Arie Litman]

CMOS are considered better mainly because they can be made bigger and cheaper. Bigger means more light energy, and that means lower noise at higher ISO.. If someone could figure out how to make a CCD the size of a 35mm frame, it would be a KILLER camera.. Probably in -4 years..

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.
Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

--
It is always the darkest before it goes totally black...
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?sort=rating-d&id=104606

 

[lrtrees]

Well I figured that the salesperson may be somewhat biased when he immediatly jumped to the pro Nikon position. Whan I asked about a point and shoot digital he went directly to the Coolpix 8800, which may be a great camera also, but it just got my attention when he was only interested in showing Nikon.

As far as the sensors go, I have no idea. I have been trying to read all I can about the two DSLR's mentioned. I have held both and they both seem very nice. I sure do not care for the lens included in the 20D kit. CHEAP!!
Anyway, was just curious. Thanks,
Lon

 

[Jack Riley]

If you're interested in the 20D, consider the 17-85IS. Great lens. Some samples:

Canon EOS 20D
1/6s f/5.0 at 35.0mm iso800



Canon EOS 20D
1/10s f/5.6 at 83.0mm iso400

Well I figured that the salesperson may be somewhat biased when he
immediatly jumped to the pro Nikon position. Whan I asked about a
point and shoot digital he went directly to the Coolpix 8800, which
may be a great camera also, but it just got my attention when he
was only interested in showing Nikon.
As far as the sensors go, I have no idea. I have been trying to
read all I can about the two DSLR's mentioned. I have held both
and they both seem very nice. I sure do not care for the lens
included in the 20D kit. CHEAP!!
Anyway, was just curious. Thanks,
Lon

--
Arnold for President!

 

[Just Looking]

If someone could figure out how to make a
CCD the size of a 35mm frame, it would be a KILLER camera..
Probably in -4 years..

Or several years ago. Contax N Digital.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0111/01111501contaxn1digital.asp

j

 

[T3]

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.

Obviously, he doesn't know what he is talking about. CCD sensors in DSLR cameras are a dying breed. The Canon D30, D60, 300D, 10D, 20D, 1D MKII and top-of-the line $8000 Canon 1Ds MKII all use CMOS sensors. So do the Kodak SLR/c and SLR/n. So does the upcoming top-of-the-line Nikon D2X. All the top models from Canon, Kodak, and Nikon use state-of-the-art CMOS sensors. The 20D uses a state-of-the-art CMOS sensor, too. The CCD sensor in the D70 is actually a very old Sony CCD sensor (the Sony ICX413AQ image chip), dating back to the Nikon D100 introduced back in 2002.

Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

You can judge for yourself the Canon 20D's CMOS sensor and the Nikon D70's CCD sensor here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page25.asp

The 20D's image quality is clearly superior. The images are clearer, sharper, more detailed, with better contrast, lower noise, and more accurate colors. The lettering and detail on the bottle labels is much more legible, defined, and sharper on the 20D images. In the grey patch frame, there is less noise from the 20D. And at higher ISO speeds, the D70's CCD can't touch the low noise and image quality of the 20D. As for colors, the pink rose in the 20D image shows much more natural colors, compared to the oversaturated, hot rose that the D70 produces. The 20D's image quality is superior in every respect. And not only does the 20D offer a broader ISO range (ISO 100 to 3200, compared to the D70's ISO 200 to 1600), but high ISO on the 20D (ISO 800 to 3200) is absolutely amazing, with very low noise and very clean image quality. I no longer hesitate to use ISO 1600 (or even ISO 3200) if I need it. The image quality is that good!

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

CMOS are considered better mainly because they can be made bigger
and cheaper. Bigger means more light energy, and that means lower
noise at higher ISO.. If someone could figure out how to make a
CCD the size of a 35mm frame, it would be a KILLER camera..
Probably in -4 years..

There are several 35 mm frame-size CCD's on the market. Some are solid performers, but none are killers.

You're wrong about CMOS, too. There's nothing inherent in the tech that makes it easier to make them bigger, and with Canon CMOS the extra circuitry makes them no cheaper than CCD's either. The FillFactory CMOS in the Kodaks is a cheaper design -- but so is the performance.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]

 

[pocchy]

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.

Obviously, he doesn't know what he is talking about. CCD sensors
in DSLR cameras are a dying breed. The Canon D30, D60, 300D, 10D,
20D, 1D MKII and top-of-the line $8000 Canon 1Ds MKII all use CMOS
sensors. So do the Kodak SLR/c and SLR/n. So does the upcoming
top-of-the-line Nikon D2X. All the top models from Canon, Kodak,
and Nikon use state-of-the-art CMOS sensors. The 20D uses a
state-of-the-art CMOS sensor, too. The CCD sensor in the D70 is
actually a very old Sony CCD sensor (the Sony ICX413AQ image chip),
dating back to the Nikon D100 introduced back in 2002.

Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

You can judge for yourself the Canon 20D's CMOS sensor and the
Nikon D70's CCD sensor here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page25.asp

The 20D's image quality is clearly superior. The images are
clearer, sharper, more detailed, with better contrast, lower noise,
and more accurate colors. The lettering and detail on the bottle
labels is much more legible, defined, and sharper on the 20D
images. In the grey patch frame, there is less noise from the 20D.
And at higher ISO speeds, the D70's CCD can't touch the low noise
and image quality of the 20D. As for colors, the pink rose in the
20D image shows much more natural colors, compared to the
oversaturated, hot rose that the D70 produces. The 20D's image
quality is superior in every respect. And not only does the 20D
offer a broader ISO range (ISO 100 to 3200, compared to the D70's
ISO 200 to 1600), but high ISO on the 20D (ISO 800 to 3200) is
absolutely amazing, with very low noise and very clean image
quality. I no longer hesitate to use ISO 1600 (or even ISO 3200)
if I need it. The image quality is that good!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It looks to me, like the CCD has a slight edge over the CMOS. Take a look at the watch in the bottom hand right corner. There is noise and bad jaggies in the CMOS and when enlarge to 600 times, the word Tuesday on the watch is broken down severely. The CCD shows the word Tuesday very clearly and there is no noise on the blue face of the watch.

Poochy

 

[pocchy]

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.

Obviously, he doesn't know what he is talking about. CCD sensors
in DSLR cameras are a dying breed. The Canon D30, D60, 300D, 10D,
20D, 1D MKII and top-of-the line $8000 Canon 1Ds MKII all use CMOS
sensors. So do the Kodak SLR/c and SLR/n. So does the upcoming
top-of-the-line Nikon D2X. All the top models from Canon, Kodak,
and Nikon use state-of-the-art CMOS sensors. The 20D uses a
state-of-the-art CMOS sensor, too. The CCD sensor in the D70 is
actually a very old Sony CCD sensor (the Sony ICX413AQ image chip),
dating back to the Nikon D100 introduced back in 2002.

Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

You can judge for yourself the Canon 20D's CMOS sensor and the
Nikon D70's CCD sensor here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page25.asp

The 20D's image quality is clearly superior. The images are
clearer, sharper, more detailed, with better contrast, lower noise,
and more accurate colors. The lettering and detail on the bottle
labels is much more legible, defined, and sharper on the 20D
images. In the grey patch frame, there is less noise from the 20D.
And at higher ISO speeds, the D70's CCD can't touch the low noise
and image quality of the 20D. As for colors, the pink rose in the
20D image shows much more natural colors, compared to the
oversaturated, hot rose that the D70 produces. The 20D's image
quality is superior in every respect. And not only does the 20D
offer a broader ISO range (ISO 100 to 3200, compared to the D70's
ISO 200 to 1600), but high ISO on the 20D (ISO 800 to 3200) is
absolutely amazing, with very low noise and very clean image
quality. I no longer hesitate to use ISO 1600 (or even ISO 3200)
if I need it. The image quality is that good!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It looks to me, like the CCD has a slight edge over the CMOS. Take
a look at the watch in the bottom hand right corner. There is noise
and bad jaggies in the CMOS and when enlarge to 600 times, the word
Tuesday on the watch is broken down severely. The CCD shows the
word Tuesday very clearly and there is no noise on the blue face of
the watch.

Sorry, just revers what I just said. I meant the CMOS is better.

Poochy

Poochy

 

[DavidMillier]

The 20D sensor is an 8MP device, the D70 CCD is 6MP. There is an approximate 15% or so linear resolution advantage staright away to the Canon which has nothing to do with CCD vs CMOS.

Canon's CMOS technology is very impressive - CCD has an innate noise advantage over CMOS, yet Canon's technology continues to lead the way on noise suppression.

Hopefully, the others who are developing CMOS sensors will catch up - I'd like to feel my cameras weren't always the noisiest on the block!

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.

Obviously, he doesn't know what he is talking about. CCD sensors
in DSLR cameras are a dying breed. The Canon D30, D60, 300D, 10D,
20D, 1D MKII and top-of-the line $8000 Canon 1Ds MKII all use CMOS
sensors. So do the Kodak SLR/c and SLR/n. So does the upcoming
top-of-the-line Nikon D2X. All the top models from Canon, Kodak,
and Nikon use state-of-the-art CMOS sensors. The 20D uses a
state-of-the-art CMOS sensor, too. The CCD sensor in the D70 is
actually a very old Sony CCD sensor (the Sony ICX413AQ image chip),
dating back to the Nikon D100 introduced back in 2002.

Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

You can judge for yourself the Canon 20D's CMOS sensor and the
Nikon D70's CCD sensor here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page25.asp

The 20D's image quality is clearly superior. The images are
clearer, sharper, more detailed, with better contrast, lower noise,
and more accurate colors. The lettering and detail on the bottle
labels is much more legible, defined, and sharper on the 20D
images. In the grey patch frame, there is less noise from the 20D.
And at higher ISO speeds, the D70's CCD can't touch the low noise
and image quality of the 20D. As for colors, the pink rose in the
20D image shows much more natural colors, compared to the
oversaturated, hot rose that the D70 produces. The 20D's image
quality is superior in every respect. And not only does the 20D
offer a broader ISO range (ISO 100 to 3200, compared to the D70's
ISO 200 to 1600), but high ISO on the 20D (ISO 800 to 3200) is
absolutely amazing, with very low noise and very clean image
quality. I no longer hesitate to use ISO 1600 (or even ISO 3200)
if I need it. The image quality is that good!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It looks to me, like the CCD has a slight edge over the CMOS. Take
a look at the watch in the bottom hand right corner. There is noise
and bad jaggies in the CMOS and when enlarge to 600 times, the word
Tuesday on the watch is broken down severely. The CCD shows the
word Tuesday very clearly and there is no noise on the blue face of
the watch.

Sorry, just revers what I just said. I meant the CMOS is better.

Poochy

Poochy

 

[PalmsWestPhoto]

CMOS imaging sensors where only used for cheap web cams because of their bad signal to noise ratio.

Then canon pioneered the CMOS sensors to use in SLR's and made them perform better than CCD's. At the same time CMOS is cheaper and easier to produce.

First canon still had to use a CCD in the original 1D because of constraints and Nikon was using CCD's in all their first cameras

Now all current Canon bodies use CMOS, Nikon used a CCD in the D70 (made by sony) but produced the LBCAST sensor for the D2H which is a CMOS like sensor and the D2X will also have a sony produced CMOS sensor.

The one thing where the CCD definately has a plus is the shutter. CCD's have electronic shutters which do not require a mechanical shutter for the actual exposure and allow you a much faster sync speed for flash photography. But hopefull sometime in the future we may have a similar feature in a CMOS type sensor somehow.

CMOS is definately the future. The one area where CCD's are still champs are the long exposure cooled sensors for astrophotography

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

 

[Pixy]

Hi Jack,

Fantastic pics.

Pixy.

 

[William Carson]

Micheal, if you happen to know, do CCD sensors use dark frame noise reduction technique similar to CMOS? What incamera noise reduction is used?
Will

 

[Ralfs]

Can anybody comment on dynamic range differences for these two technologies? I have read some old articles that CCD has an advantage in this regard, but I haven't noticed any advantages in real-life pictures. Maybe CMOS has catched up in this regard too?

 

[eshropshire]

You should ask why the new High end Nikon D2X is going to be using a Sony CMOS chip. You can also ask about the LBCAST chip in the D2H, while not really a CMOS chip, it is not a CCD. You might also want to ask about the Foveon CMOS sensor.

Ed

I was at a Inkley's (Ritz) store today and looked at two fairly hot
DSLR's. The Nikon D70 and the Canon 20D. The salesperson I spoke
to was all over the D70 as being a better picture taker than the
20D. One big reason he indicated was the fact that the D70 uses a
CCD image sensor while the 20D uses a CMOS sensor.
Now I am one, who at times, tends to over analys things and I am
wondering if there is any truth to what he said?
Your sharing of knowledge is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Lon

--
Ed
http://www.cbrycelea.com/photos/

 

[Jack Riley]

Thanks Pixy!

Hi Jack,

Fantastic pics.

Pixy.

--
Arnold for President!

 

[BJL]

It is silly to claim that either CMOS or CCD is unequivocally superior to the other; there are too many pros and cons to weigh.

Just consider this

a) the sensors in all the high end digital backs for medium and large format cameras are CCD's (but Full Frame Transfer type, not the more common interline type of CCD)

b) the sensors in the Canon 1Ds, original and mark II, and the 1D mark II are CMOS.

So both types can do very well.

I would keep to judging price and actual performance against your budget and needs, not looking at sensor types or other tech. spec's.

 

[BJL]

The one area where CCD's are still champs are the long exposure cooled sensors for astrophotography

CCD's are still doing very well in other markets too:

• the high end of digital backs for formats larger than 35mm is 100% CCD.
• Through all the talk about the D60 and 10D CMOS sensors having lower noise than the CCDs in competitors, the Fuji S2 with its SuperCCD has had even lower noise levels. (S3 vs 20D still to come!)
• Between the Nikon D100 and D70, Fuji S2 and soon S3, Pentax -ist D and -ist DS, Konica-Minolta D7D and Olympus E-1 and E-300, there are lots of CCD DSLRs being made and bought.
• CCD's are apparently still dominant for lots of other medical and scientific imaging applications.

Most CMOS vs CCD DSLR comparions are to the widely used Sony interline type CCD's; maybe FFT CCD and Fuji SuperCCD are a big part of the DSLR future too.

For one thing, fundamental design differences seem to give CCD, in particular Full Frame Transfer CCD, a natural advantage in dynamic range through greater electron well capacity at a given pixel size. The FillFactory CMOS sensors used in recent Kodak DSLRs use a very different design akin to the back illuminated sensors used in some scientific applications, which gives them very high well capacity and thus good dynamic range, but maybe at the cost of famously high noise levels.