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Kodak 14n Poll

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Andrea,
Sorry you took my reply as refering to you about the posts lead.

If you look at "fashion Diva" you will see only a few posts that all criticize Kodak and nothing on photography or anything related to helping others.

Hope this clarifies my previous...

Trust me, I totally agree that the design has some shortcomings, but everyone has the opportunity to take it or leave it. I am growing in my photography and at the time tilts and shifts was not something I had a chance to experiment with on the 35mm format outside of postprocessing. Things have now changed and I really wish I could get any of the Nikon PCs or T/S on the unit without damaging the lens.

I have used a number of cameras in my day and the Kodak is no worst than any of the others. I guess it just boils down to personal taste. I do not care for the "mimime" cameras and tend like a bigger unit. Heck, I even got along with the much heavier 760s and Pentax 67 medium format cameras.

regards,
 
Mastrianni said:
Jay, Jay, Jay....

This is a "real" car....



This is an "alien" car......



This is a "real" camera.....



This is an "alien" camera.....



"Alien" not good.... Real men need real cars and real cameras. (or
Viagra)

Next go around, lock up the bean counters, and let your engineers
have their way with lady Kodak.

Regards
Mastrianni
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification..
I now understand..

I will use this vital data as the primary input for all future camera design decisions!!

(Swabian cars rule!!!!!)

-Jay

--

Jay Kelbley
-Eastman Kodak Company
[email protected]

For Questions/ Customer Support:
-In the U.S. Email [email protected]
-In the U.S. You can call 1-800-235-6325 x82
 
Apple Computer know around the world for their industrial design, and yet it's an American company.

Khanh
tbosley said:
rainer viertlboeck said:
i said that i think different from the 20s til the 70s....
Click to expand...
Rainer,
Its not personal against you, but I think generalizations have no
place here.
No US or Europe bashing. Its just photography :)

How about this US design:
http://www.fast-autos.net/chrysler/chryslerme412.html

It was done after the 70's...
Click to expand...
--
--
Khanh
Equipments listed under profile.
 
Funnily enough for me it felt weird to hold at first, but once I got used to it I really liked that part of the camera. However I have really small hands. I can't imagine how the average guy can get his fingertips into the grip space.

However, lots of problems, some already mentioned in this thread.
And many affected image quality under normal shooting circumstances.
Some of the other problems off the top of my head:
  • Didn't work with my VR lenses - put squiglies all over the images that looked like snakes wherever there were point highlights. I presume this is a sensor recharge time problem. My VR lenses work great with the D70.
  • Exposure lattitude not what Kodak claims - in fact not as good as a DRebel or D70. Really needed controlled lighting to get shadow detail and non-blown highlights. i.e. a studio camera with studio lights.
  • Vertical use is a joke - the vertical shutter button has a really heavy mechanical feel that causes camera shake. Had to use the regular button and contort myself. i.e. like in a studio on a tripod using a remote release for vertical use
  • image artifacts like I couldn't believe on corduroy clothing - the DRebel has WAY more detail on such items. i.e. a studio camera and better be careful about what the model wears
  • No attempt to seal the camera from water entry at all. The 14N logo button was particularly offensive: you could see the gaps into the body of the camera around it. It looked like someone had gone at a Nikon N80 body with a cheap drill bit. Water could easily go into the camera at this point. And the warning in the manual to not get drops of water on the camera - I'm not surprised! i.e. better only use where its not likely to rain on you, like in a studio.
I think you get my drift here

etc, etc.

--len
 
Hi Andrea

Whilst I don't fully agree with you about the 14n, your point about US design is interesting.

The Apple exception doesn't, however, work, as, as far as I'm aware, all the apple designs since the iMac have been done by an Englishman!

kind regards
Jono
andrea buso said:
Being more serious about the matter I would like to say:

What ever the 14n might fit some one hands properly, it does not to
the majority of the users, and this is not subjective. It is a
matter of fact.
The 14n it is not pretty cool looking, of course this is
subjective, but the majority of people think is not. In any case
the 14n it is not such piece of avant gard design that can be
understood by an elite of few. It is not that kind of ecception, it
just belong on the category of not well designed cameras.

It does not look cool to me because the body looks fat and nothing
that is part of this camera body is smooth and sleek. Everything
pop out, like if the parts were glued togheter. It seems like parts
form different tools (not even different cameras) were taken and
then squized together.
The design of buttons and dials is really approssimate and it meet
the standard of a 20$ blender that you can buy at a warehouse sale.
There are big gaps between every metal and plastic part and the
parts do not join well, all the gaps are irregular.
I have to say that most the American electronics (eccepts Apple and
few others) have this approssimate design and assembly. Anytime I
give a look at any american household appliances make me feel like
I'm back in the sixtyes. The 14n is coming from this mentality. The
problems is that at least half of the population in US is familiar
and grown up with this bad design and keep buying the same junk
for ever and of course the makers of this junk do not need of
changing or investing in good and designuntil they keep selling
millions units. I hope any American friend do not take this critic
on design too personally. Of course there are plenties of Amrican
classic design that are well appreciated world wide, but it is not
the case of the 14n,, kodak cameras in generals and house old
appliances we can buy today.

Said that, I'm using my 14n and getting good results, mostly
because of the camera capability, but also because I have been
using it with a lot of my patience, precutions and skills.
Even for what it costs the 14n or the SRLc/n are still an expensive
tool, that a part for resolution, do not meet the reliability, good
design and versatility of the D1x, D100, S2 or 10D whose cost a
fraction.
Most of the complaints form the majority of 14n users are on flaws
that are not caused by cutting cost in the making of it and the
consequent lower price ( compared to 1ds) but just because the
camera was not thought and built well enough by its makers. I think
that many persons involved on the making of it, are not prepared
well enough for the task.

I think Kodak did something that can deliver outstanding quality
but in order to get it you need too much precautios that cannot be
candidly accepted by the customers.
The guys at Kodak defenitively need to do better.

Please do not tell me that this is not the camera for me, that I'm
not ready, or that I should do my home work. I heard that before
and I can proove that wrong. I would love just avoid it.
I'm getting outstanding results, If the 14n was behaving as all the
others cameras I own or I previously owned, I would not be
complaining.

Here is the product that is at fault not the users.

regards.
Andrea.
andrea buso said:
fashion Diva said:
Do the designers of the Kodak 14n have human hands???
Click to expand...
The camera fits my hands perfectly! Are you insulting people like me?
andrea buso said:
Are they aliens? or just high on crack??
Click to expand...
None of the above!
andrea buso said:
Is the n14 the ugliest camera ever built???
Click to expand...
Nope! It's actually pretty cool looking.

You may have stumbled upon this camera by mistake. May I suggest
you venture toward the point-n-shoot type of cameras instead. This
may suit your style needs better.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
Hi there
UnderWater said:
  • No attempt to seal the camera from water entry at all. The 14N
logo button was particularly offensive: you could see the gaps into
the body of the camera around it.
Click to expand...
Do you mean the shiny bumpy thing at the top right (when looking at the camera?). I thought this particularly disgusting, and pulled mine straight off - it's sticky (but not very) and the camera looks much better without it - but there aren't any holes around it.

Or do you mean something else?
kind regards
Jono
UnderWater said:
It looked like someone had gone
at a Nikon N80 body with a cheap drill bit. Water could easily go
into the camera at this point. And the warning in the manual to not
get drops of water on the camera - I'm not surprised! i.e. better
only use where its not likely to rain on you, like in a studio.

I think you get my drift here

etc, etc.

--len
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
Well, I don't agree with many of the complaints about the design - certainly I like the look of the camera quite a lot.

But that shiny blob saying 14n (or SLR/n) at the top right - euch. OTOH mine fell off the second day, improving the look of the camera immeasurably.

I don't like the plastic chrome 'Kodak' on the pentaprism much either, a bit of paint like that on the fat base would have been better (IMHO).

but these are very small things.

I think the point about the portrait button and grip are valid, but I never use it. I also agree with nose and buttons, but the OK only mode seems a perfect solution to me, not a bandaid fix.

I guess I must be an alien!

kind regards
jono slack
fashion Diva said:
Do the designers of the Kodak 14n have human hands???
Are they aliens? or just high on crack??
Is the n14 the ugliest camera ever built???
DMillier said:
I've got to (sort of agree).

On the downside. the 14n body is a bit of a frankencamera with odd
bumps and lumps and clearly the designers didn't have human hands
(who designed the 'portrait grip' - it's useless because there
isn't enough space to get your fingers under the lens and the
button is too hard to press anyway) but it is pretty solidly made -
in a vernacular way.

I quite like the much loathed 'Leno chin' base because it provides
a nice solid place for the left hand to hold on to.

But one thing that I still haven't sorted out when holding the
camera in landscape orientation is what to do with my little
finger. The big hand grip is slightly too big for me to grip in the
way the designers moulded the rubber for so I have to kind of slide
my hand around a bit and then my little finger just won't fit - it
jams into the gap where the portrait grip (er, that's what Kodak
call it...) ends.

Having used the D100 and 14n together this weekend, I think that
the D100 is much more elegantly designed.
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fashion Diva said:
No, No, No, !!!
Click to expand...
fashion Diva said:
They have human hands, the designers were just exposed to high levels of > radioactivity and toxic chemicals so their hands are totally deformed as their eye > sight, and judgment. As for all the lumps and bumps, Come on now we all > know what they were smoking.
Click to expand...
fashion Diva said:
fashion Diva said:
fashion Diva said:
I agree the body a a shameful disgrace to a ny good camera
manufacture, Kodak needs to get good designers thee Kodak DCS SLR/n
especially is just shameful
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fashion Diva said:
Impossible most Aliens are usualy small, with small hands, everyone knows that
Click to expand...
fashion Diva said:
no to mention they like smoth clean line , just look at their space ships.
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren Sarle said:
Obviously, the designers have no noses. That proves they are aliens
(the extraterrestrial variety).
Click to expand...
fashion Diva said:
Remember the movie ET? Remember how the flying saucers are covered
with Christmas lights? Now why would the Kodak engineers put
Christmas lights on everything you photograph if they weren't
aliens?! QED
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ShootDigital said:
I agree they are not aliens,
Click to expand...
fashion Diva said:
although come to think of it maybe pollux is being held captive and forced to > promote the Kodak system, but I don't think so, if I can put in my two cents I > think the designers were simply smoking to much stuff and reading Playboy as > they worked, except maybe for one of them reading Stud Muffin, this explains > the bottom grip.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
i wrote later,- andrea also. apple design is cool. the older ibm had good design work also ( but it made colani.....),
made great studies and never realised them.....
Khanh Vo said:
Khanh
tbosley said:
rainer viertlboeck said:
i said that i think different from the 20s til the 70s....
Click to expand...
Rainer,
Its not personal against you, but I think generalizations have no
place here.
No US or Europe bashing. Its just photography :)

How about this US design:
http://www.fast-autos.net/chrysler/chryslerme412.html

It was done after the 70's...
Click to expand...
--
--
Khanh
Equipments listed under profile.
Click to expand...
 
Since the iMac

LOL

:-)
Khanh Vo said:
Khanh
tbosley said:
rainer viertlboeck said:
i said that i think different from the 20s til the 70s....
Click to expand...
Rainer,
Its not personal against you, but I think generalizations have no
place here.
No US or Europe bashing. Its just photography :)

How about this US design:
http://www.fast-autos.net/chrysler/chryslerme412.html

It was done after the 70's...
Click to expand...
--
--
Khanh
Equipments listed under profile.
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
Jono Slack said:
LOL

:-)
Khanh Vo said:
Khanh
tbosley said:
rainer viertlboeck said:
i said that i think different from the 20s til the 70s....
Click to expand...
Rainer,
Its not personal against you, but I think generalizations have no
place here.
No US or Europe bashing. Its just photography :)

How about this US design:
http://www.fast-autos.net/chrysler/chryslerme412.html

It was done after the 70's...
Click to expand...
--
--
Khanh
Equipments listed under profile.
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
Following your tip, I've been trying to use the vertical grip.

In this position:
  • my first finger can reach the shutter release - OK
  • My second finger tucks in next to the F moun lokgo - OK
  • My thumb rests on the joy stick buttom - sort of OK
  • My 3rd and little fingers try and wedge between the 'chin' and the bottom of the lens - No ROOM!
  • In this position, my thumb and first finger are spread apart about as far as the go - uncomfortable !
  • The memory lot door is wedged into the webbing between thumb and first finger, and my hand is struggling to encompass the full span of the fat base - not good.
The design is just not right for general use; I find shooting portraits is best done teh traditional way by holding the main grip and cocking the elbow at right angles.

Sorry Kodak, but the design of the portrait grip may be usable by some people but not by a lot more!

(I still like the camera though...)
bobcdy said:
pollux said:
JTF said:
fashion Diva said:
Do the designers of the Kodak 14n have human hands???
Click to expand...
The camera fits my hands perfectly! Are you insulting people like me?
bobcdy said:
Are they aliens? or just high on crack??
Click to expand...
None of the above!
bobcdy said:
Is the n14 the ugliest camera ever built???
Click to expand...
Nope! It's actually pretty cool looking.

You may have stumbled upon this camera by mistake. May I suggest
you venture toward the point-n-shoot type of cameras instead. This
may suit your style needs better.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
DMillier said:
In this position:
  • my first finger can reach the shutter release - OK
  • My second finger tucks in next to the F moun lokgo - OK
  • My thumb rests on the joy stick buttom - sort of OK
  • My 3rd and little fingers try and wedge between the 'chin' and
the bottom of the lens - No ROOM!
  • In this position, my thumb and first finger are spread apart
about as far as the go - uncomfortable !
  • The memory lot door is wedged into the webbing between thumb and
first finger, and my hand is struggling to encompass the full span
of the fat base - not good.

The design is just not right for general use; I find shooting
portraits is best done teh traditional way by holding the main grip
and cocking the elbow at right angles.

Sorry Kodak, but the design of the portrait grip may be usable by
some people but not by a lot more!

(I still like the camera though...)
bobcdy said:
pollux said:
JTF said:
fashion Diva said:
Do the designers of the Kodak 14n have human hands???
Click to expand...
The camera fits my hands perfectly! Are you insulting people like me?
DavidMillier said:
Are they aliens? or just high on crack??
Click to expand...
None of the above!
DavidMillier said:
Is the n14 the ugliest camera ever built???
Click to expand...
Nope! It's actually pretty cool looking.

You may have stumbled upon this camera by mistake. May I suggest
you venture toward the point-n-shoot type of cameras instead. This
may suit your style needs better.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I don't like logos and go faster stripes on any products but if you are complaining about logos, the "Kodak Professional" in large painted type is the tacky bit IMO.

It's like hi fi stuff - buy British and you will pay a fortune, it won't work, the knobs will fall off (if there are any) but you won't get any writing other than a discreet maker's name. But almost every other country likes to write an essay all over the front panel "CDTapeRecPlayer 3000210-2 Mark56 with Super feedforward Dolby Digital Class A Hi Power Low Noise Hi Performance New Tech..."

Grrrr... design guys, the product is the product, leave the advertising where it belongs, in the brochure!!
Jono Slack said:
But that shiny blob saying 14n (or SLR/n) at the top right - euch.
OTOH mine fell off the second day, improving the look of the camera
immeasurably.

I don't like the plastic chrome 'Kodak' on the pentaprism much
either, a bit of paint like that on the fat base would have been
better (IMHO).

but these are very small things.

I think the point about the portrait button and grip are valid, but
I never use it. I also agree with nose and buttons, but the OK only
mode seems a perfect solution to me, not a bandaid fix.

I guess I must be an alien!

kind regards
jono slack
fashion Diva said:
Do the designers of the Kodak 14n have human hands???
Are they aliens? or just high on crack??
Is the n14 the ugliest camera ever built???
DMillier said:
I've got to (sort of agree).

On the downside. the 14n body is a bit of a frankencamera with odd
bumps and lumps and clearly the designers didn't have human hands
(who designed the 'portrait grip' - it's useless because there
isn't enough space to get your fingers under the lens and the
button is too hard to press anyway) but it is pretty solidly made -
in a vernacular way.

I quite like the much loathed 'Leno chin' base because it provides
a nice solid place for the left hand to hold on to.

But one thing that I still haven't sorted out when holding the
camera in landscape orientation is what to do with my little
finger. The big hand grip is slightly too big for me to grip in the
way the designers moulded the rubber for so I have to kind of slide
my hand around a bit and then my little finger just won't fit - it
jams into the gap where the portrait grip (er, that's what Kodak
call it...) ends.

Having used the D100 and 14n together this weekend, I think that
the D100 is much more elegantly designed.
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jono Slack said:
No, No, No, !!!
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
They have human hands, the designers were just exposed to high levels of > radioactivity and toxic chemicals so their hands are totally deformed as their eye > sight, and judgment. As for all the lumps and bumps, Come on now we all > know what they were smoking.
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
I agree the body a a shameful disgrace to a ny good camera
manufacture, Kodak needs to get good designers thee Kodak DCS SLR/n
especially is just shameful
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jono Slack said:
Impossible most Aliens are usualy small, with small hands, everyone knows that
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
no to mention they like smoth clean line , just look at their space ships.
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warren Sarle said:
Obviously, the designers have no noses. That proves they are aliens
(the extraterrestrial variety).
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
Remember the movie ET? Remember how the flying saucers are covered
with Christmas lights? Now why would the Kodak engineers put
Christmas lights on everything you photograph if they weren't
aliens?! QED
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ShootDigital said:
I agree they are not aliens,
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
although come to think of it maybe pollux is being held captive and forced to > promote the Kodak system, but I don't think so, if I can put in my two cents I > think the designers were simply smoking to much stuff and reading Playboy as > they worked, except maybe for one of them reading Stud Muffin, this explains > the bottom grip.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
Gaffer tape & monopod

The Gaffer tape can be put on any logo and brand name, like I already did. The monopod goes very well with the portrait grip if attached through a custom made hardware store 1 dollar L-bracket. I always love to shoot with the monopod. Not to keep the camera from moving, but to hold it while I'm talking to my subject when I want my camera in the same position as during shooting. But also in the shortened version, the monopod is a great handgrip just like when filmcamera had this grip under the camera. BTW, I love the way the portrait grip is positioned compared to where it is on my D100 or on the Canon 1D series. It's way to much to the right while shooting for a good balance. I place my thumb on the top back middle of the camera while holding it vertically. Feels very ergonomic. My fingers don't try to squeese in between lens and grip, but are placed on the grip. (Well, some more than three words)
DMillier said:
I don't like logos and go faster stripes on any products but if you
are complaining about logos, the "Kodak Professional" in large
painted type is the tacky bit IMO.

It's like hi fi stuff - buy British and you will pay a fortune, it
won't work, the knobs will fall off (if there are any) but you
won't get any writing other than a discreet maker's name. But
almost every other country likes to write an essay all over the
front panel "CDTapeRecPlayer 3000210-2 Mark56 with Super
feedforward Dolby Digital Class A Hi Power Low Noise Hi Performance
New Tech..."

Grrrr... design guys, the product is the product, leave the
advertising where it belongs, in the brochure!!
Click to expand...
 
HI David
Things begin to fall into place:
DavidMillier said:
DavidMillier said:
  • My 3rd and little fingers try and wedge between the 'chin' and
the bottom of the lens - No ROOM!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
and then:
DavidMillier said:
DavidMillier said:
  • In this position, my thumb and first finger are spread apart
about as far as the go - uncomfortable !
  • The memory lot door is wedged into the webbing between thumb and
first finger, and my hand is struggling to encompass the full span
of the fat base - not good.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
DavidMillier said:
DavidMillier said:
The design is just not right for general use;
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Clearly the Kodak is designed for us dignified and sophisticated people who have small hands and long thin fingers!

It seems that computers have been designed the same way (hence the typos).

Kind Regards
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
I fear that short and fat is a good description of me...
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
  • My 3rd and little fingers try and wedge between the 'chin' and
the bottom of the lens - No ROOM!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
and then:
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
  • In this position, my thumb and first finger are spread apart
about as far as the go - uncomfortable !
  • The memory lot door is wedged into the webbing between thumb and
first finger, and my hand is struggling to encompass the full span
of the fat base - not good.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Jono Slack said:
Jono Slack said:
The design is just not right for general use;
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Clearly the Kodak is designed for us dignified and sophisticated
people who have small hands and long thin fingers!

It seems that computers have been designed the same way (hence the
typos).

Kind Regards
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
You are so right! There are a lot of otherwise great camera designs out there that were ruined by their makers' marketing departments. I especially like ones that say "Camera" on them. Reminds me of the old Far Side cartoon ("THAT should clear up a few things around here!"). However, Kodak isn't the worst perpetrator of silly design; sadly, that award goes to Nikon for their Coolpix 5700 and 8700 models. In addition to all the superfluous wording, they look like something you should be able to plug into a Playstation.
DMillier said:
I don't like logos and go faster stripes on any products but if you
are complaining about logos, the "Kodak Professional" in large
painted type is the tacky bit IMO.

It's like hi fi stuff - buy British and you will pay a fortune, it
won't work, the knobs will fall off (if there are any) but you
won't get any writing other than a discreet maker's name. But
almost every other country likes to write an essay all over the
front panel "CDTapeRecPlayer 3000210-2 Mark56 with Super
feedforward Dolby Digital Class A Hi Power Low Noise Hi Performance
New Tech..."

Grrrr... design guys, the product is the product, leave the
advertising where it belongs, in the brochure!!
Click to expand...
 
Never Mind, it was a misunderstanding.

I saw my text on your post and I thought you were refferring to me.
No big deal.
Andrea.
tbosley said:
Andrea,
Sorry you took my reply as refering to you about the posts lead.

If you look at "fashion Diva" you will see only a few posts that
all criticize Kodak and nothing on photography or anything related
to helping others.

Hope this clarifies my previous...

Trust me, I totally agree that the design has some shortcomings,
but everyone has the opportunity to take it or leave it. I am
growing in my photography and at the time tilts and shifts was not
something I had a chance to experiment with on the 35mm format
outside of postprocessing. Things have now changed and I really
wish I could get any of the Nikon PCs or T/S on the unit without
damaging the lens.

I have used a number of cameras in my day and the Kodak is no worst
than any of the others. I guess it just boils down to personal
taste. I do not care for the "mimime" cameras and tend like a
bigger unit. Heck, I even got along with the much heavier 760s and
Pentax 67 medium format cameras.

regards,
Click to expand...
 
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