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C1 LE New version DOWNGRADE??

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Thank you for your efforts in this and encouraging people on this forum to speak out. I certainly took it to heart and emailed Phase One directly. Who knows, maybe it helped.

I appreciate Phase One rethinking their earlier decision and owning up to it being a mistake.

I don't understand the continued ranting. I know that there are still issues with the product, and hopefully you will address them to everyone's satisfaction in October. I for one will be more than willing to wait for that.

In the meantime, I will wait for the new release next week before I bother to "upgrade" :).

= Ed =
--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'
http://www.edrotberg.org/gallery
 
Michael,

Let me get this straight. They do 2 product releases a year, so this is one of the 2 biggest things they have going on this year for them, and the management doesn't know the basic changes in the release?

I see, they are incompetent... Does anyone remember Enron? Doesn't this sound familiar? CEO: "I had no idea what was going on"...

Michael. Thanks for your efforts today. You seem to have done a lot of good today, but I am just not buying the "Gee, I didn't know what we were releasing" bit management is pulling.

They are either lying thier butt off or very incompetent. How do you not know what is going out in a major (6 month) release?

Have I really "totally misunderstood"? All the removed features force users to upgrade (consistent in thier "errors") which make more money for Phase One.

Which is more likely? Phase One is that incompetent that they did not know what was be released in thier major release? Or that Phase One figured they had a good product and they could force people to upgrade?

Regards,
Darrell

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MichaelT said:
Darrell McCombs said:
Michael,

I am glad that Phase one is rectifying the technical issues.

When I heard about the late breaking news about 8-bit LE, I
questioned Phase Ones integrity.

Paragraph #2 below is a blantant lie, so I trust Phase One now even
less. Their explanation of the crippled release implies there was
a quality control issue. Everyone can clearly see that they were
trying to increase revenue by forcing people to upgrade. IS UPPER
LEVEL MANAGEMENT TRYING TO SAY THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS IN THE
NEW RELEASE?

I appreciate that they are going to put out a real upgrade within a
week, and I appreciate they apologized, but I do not appreciate
them lying to us yet again. HAVEN'T THEY BEEN UNDERHANDED ENOUGH
FOR ONE DAY?

You don't fix integrity issues with lies. Obviously they haven't
learned anything today...

Even with the real update coming, I think I will take another look
at the other Raw Converter packages available. After all, I have a
week to check out the competition, and they can't be near as
underhanded as Phase One has been with this release and with their
false explanation.

With Regrets,
Darrell McCombs
Click to expand...
Assumming that this is this is the paragraph in question...

"Without going into details, there were some internal management
procedures that obviously did not work correctly, and as a result a
release not worthy of the C1 name and our loyal customer base was
released."

What was meant was not that it was not known what was in the
release, but the powers that allowed the release to be what it was
should not have allowed it to go out with the known feature set (or
lack of). Again without going into details, what is meant by the
paragrpah above is that P1 blew it, and they have to put controls
into place to prevent the decision process from occurring again.

Are we square now?

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
 
Doug Morgan said:
MichaelT said:
markE said:
Mr. Lee said:
To me, that says more than if this had never happened in the first
place.
Click to expand...
This means that P1 is listening to the people that keep them afloat.

Thank you, Michael, for being the voice, and for seeing this
through. After reading through your posts here, I think that you've
handled this problem with a level of concern and professionalism
that many other companies could use as a model.

OK, here's my question: If I purchase C1 LE before the 16-bit mode
returns, and I get the 16-bit update when it occurs, with this
particular update negate any free updates I would recieve in the
future?

Thank you for your efforts, AND results!

--
  • markE
http://www.wingsoflight.com



pbase supporter
Click to expand...
The release next week and the June release are what we call
incremental releases and they do not count towards the 1 (LE/SE)
and 2(Pro) free upgrades that come with a new ugrade key. So
regardless of how many incremental ugrades there are it is only the
May and oct major releases that count as part of the udgrade
caluclation...

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
 
dmccombs said:
Michael,

I agree that they are fixing the issue reasonably quickly. I also
agree they apologized.

My remaining issue is is that in thier apology, they blame things
on a "procedure" (see quote below). I contend this is a lie, and
your response to me and others that it was poor judgement is
correct. If they were accepting fault, they would say WE used poor
judgement, and would not blame things passively on a PROCEDURE.

This screw up was not due to some "black box" unknown thing.
Management got greedy and made bad decisions. Until they start
using words like "We...", they are just slighting the fault.

"Without going into details, there were some internal management
procedures that obviously did not work correctly, and as a result a
release not worthy of the C1 name and our loyal customer base was
released."

On a slightly different note, you did a tremendous job of
communicating our reaction to thier decisions. I am a bit
surprised however that you were as surprised as we were by the
8-bit downgrade. In your position, I would think they would keep
you better informed. When were they kind enough to tell you about
this?

Thanks for taking time to respond to all the unhappy folks. I am
sure your fingers are getting sore from all the typing.

Regards,
Darrell McCombs
Click to expand...
The details and inards of the situation are for us to work out. P1 screwed up, it is known within, and corections will be made...
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
 
dmccombs said:
Let me get this straight. They do 2 product releases a year, so
this is one of the 2 biggest things they have going on this year
for them, and the management doesn't know the basic changes in the
release?

I see, they are incompetent... Does anyone remember Enron?
Doesn't this sound familiar? CEO: "I had no idea what was going
on"...

Michael. Thanks for your efforts today. You seem to have done a
lot of good today, but I am just not buying the "Gee, I didn't know
what we were releasing" bit management is pulling.

They are either lying thier butt off or very incompetent. How do
you not know what is going out in a major (6 month) release?

Have I really "totally misunderstood"? All the removed features
force users to upgrade (consistent in thier "errors") which make
more money for Phase One.

Which is more likely? Phase One is that incompetent that they did
not know what was be released in thier major release? Or that
Phase One figured they had a good product and they could force
people to upgrade?

Regards,
Darrell

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MichaelT said:
Darrell McCombs said:
Michael,

I am glad that Phase one is rectifying the technical issues.

When I heard about the late breaking news about 8-bit LE, I
questioned Phase Ones integrity.

Paragraph #2 below is a blantant lie, so I trust Phase One now even
less. Their explanation of the crippled release implies there was
a quality control issue. Everyone can clearly see that they were
trying to increase revenue by forcing people to upgrade. IS UPPER
LEVEL MANAGEMENT TRYING TO SAY THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS IN THE
NEW RELEASE?

I appreciate that they are going to put out a real upgrade within a
week, and I appreciate they apologized, but I do not appreciate
them lying to us yet again. HAVEN'T THEY BEEN UNDERHANDED ENOUGH
FOR ONE DAY?

You don't fix integrity issues with lies. Obviously they haven't
learned anything today...

Even with the real update coming, I think I will take another look
at the other Raw Converter packages available. After all, I have a
week to check out the competition, and they can't be near as
underhanded as Phase One has been with this release and with their
false explanation.

With Regrets,
Darrell McCombs
Click to expand...
Assumming that this is this is the paragraph in question...

"Without going into details, there were some internal management
procedures that obviously did not work correctly, and as a result a
release not worthy of the C1 name and our loyal customer base was
released."

What was meant was not that it was not known what was in the
release, but the powers that allowed the release to be what it was
should not have allowed it to go out with the known feature set (or
lack of). Again without going into details, what is meant by the
paragrpah above is that P1 blew it, and they have to put controls
into place to prevent the decision process from occurring again.

Are we square now?

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
 
markE said:
I have a few friends that are vets of WWII, and will be attending
the dedication. Unfortunately, my father, who was a paratrooper
there, has since passed on, but I know he wouldn't have missed it.

Best wishes on the assignment. I know you will do well!

--
  • markE
http://www.wingsoflight.com



pbase supporter
Click to expand...
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
 
Wick is right on target with his "price/value portfolio" thoughts.

The entry level 'LE' had too many 'PRO' features and no incentive to upgrade. 'P1' re-invented their product line and downgraded 'LE'.

Other software companies have restructured their software "price/value portfolio", downgrading their entry level software too.

However, these companies kept their 'Business Good Will' by upgrading existing customers to the higher level software (with all the features they were use to) for free. There is a potential loss of revenue at first, but the gain in the long run will outweigh this potential loss.

I'm not so sure I trust 'P1' at this time. The only way 'P1' can redeem itself now, is to upgrade all it's exiting 'LE' customers to 'SE'. This way, 'P1' can keep it's new 'Entry Level LE 3.5' crippled and get new customers to upgrade to 'SE' or 'PRO' if they want the added features.

Jim
Wick Smith said:
I'm not sure how how helpful it is to start name calling over this,
especially in light of P1's willingness to fix the problem.

Here's what I think happened. I think the execs sat down with the
feature set of Pro and started to take things out in order to
create a price/value portfolio chain that would create upgrade
revenue opportunities. In doing so, by the time they got to LE they
had to take out too much to keep it from bumping into the feature
set of the much more expensive SE. What they failed to realize was
that they were actually recmoving basic and important fuctionality
from the existing LE and from Rebel.

I'm sure the mistaken idea was that owners of entry level DSLR
cameras wouldn't initially miss the features that were not included
in LE and they would get some upgrade revenue when users moved to
SE later on. But they completely underestimated the existing user
base who already had those features and found them indispensible.
--
-wick
Click to expand...
 
Olli Nuutinen said:
it works with that image quite well... but how about pics wiht
people and bright lights, candels, flowers... ?
Click to expand...
I continued testing this brand new software and in fact situation isn't so bad it looked at first sight. I tested again my problematic images with Sunset profile. It coped quite well in 75% of cases. Biggest problem for the profile seems to be very bright yellowish floodlights : / also some of the sunsets are too much. And no there is possibility to add any extra saturation if don't want to mess yellow.

But don't forget to make real bug fix ; ) Sorry about the hassle it was so new and hot in my hands so there wasn't too much time to investigate the situation.

Final statement: things are now much better than week ago :) Thanks for that.
 
or do you have to use the trial version (until the 16bit version is available)?

Thanks
Doug
Olli Nuutinen said:
Olli Nuutinen said:
it works with that image quite well... but how about pics wiht
people and bright lights, candels, flowers... ?
Click to expand...
I continued testing this brand new software and in fact situation
isn't so bad it looked at first sight. I tested again my
problematic images with Sunset profile. It coped quite well in 75%
of cases. Biggest problem for the profile seems to be very bright
yellowish floodlights : / also some of the sunsets are too much.
And no there is possibility to add any extra saturation if don't
want to mess yellow.

But don't forget to make real bug fix ; ) Sorry about the hassle
it was so new and hot in my hands so there wasn't too much time to
investigate the situation.

Final statement: things are now much better than week ago :) Thanks
for that.
Click to expand...
 
Nothwithstanding that I appreciate the good work Michael is doing, it sounds as if C1 is pushing the user community to fork out more money to higher versions i.e. SE/Pro. The recent announcement by C1 to discontinue the Rebel version and offering to charge money (attractive upgrade fee to LE) whilst not keeping up to some of the feature enhancements announced for the Rebel months back, and now this LE issue, just tells me C1 is just not managing their customer relationships and customer experiences in a manner that promotes long term relationship. I really hope that C1 would do the right thing untimately.
Ed Rotberg said:
OK, let me add my voice here. I've had C1 LE for less than a year
(bought my 10D in July last year), so I believe that I'm still in
line for a free "upgrade". Let me flatly state that I won't even
bother if 16-bit output is removed from C1 LE. This is a no
brainer. I understand you need differentiation between product
that you make, but allow me to read between the lines of your
recent posts:

Begin conjecture: It appears that your marketing group has made
the decision to cripple C1 LE in order to promote more
upgrades/crossgrades to SE and PRO. More speculation leads to an
assumption that SE was not the smash hit that marketing had
expected it to be (I always felt that SE was an ill-though out
product spec'd out by a marketing idiot) and in order to justify
THEIR decision to create this product, they need to increase its
sales. End Conjecture.

The fact that most of the hobbyists out here (and I'd venture to
guess that there are more of us than pros) have a pain point at
$100 for single-purpose software has not entered into their
pathetic, tiny, little, marketing brains.

I know I'm being hard on them but consider - You have sold LE as a
solution to hobbyists that will allow them to - among other things
  • get 16-bit output. People bouhgt in - for many of us it is
because of that 16-bit output. Now you are prepared to TAKE AWAY
an important feature and offer us a "special" upgrade price to
spend even more money. This is simply bad marketing and I strongly
suspect the motiviations behind this decision.

Please, please, PLEASE make this go away. It will leave an awful
taste in folks' mouths. The only other software company that I
would credit with the temerity to pull such a stunt is Microsoft.
Even Adobe has never pulled anything like this.

I'm rambling, I know, but I'm also outraged by this decision. I
sincerely hope that folks at P1 will reconsider what I feel is a
horrible move.

= Ed =
MichaelT said:
Ed Rotberg said:
I was just about to purchase the product for my new 10D, but now I
am completely turned off.
If this is true, and Michael doesn't change it, I'll just be
upgrading my PS 7 to CS very soon.

--
  • markE
http://www.wingsoflight.com



pbase supporter
Click to expand...
I understand your feeling, but let's let this play out before you
give up on C1. It is still the best regardless of these release
snafus, so give me a little time to see what I can do. I appreciate
your frustration, but I appreciate your paitence even more :> )

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'
http://www.edrotberg.org/gallery
Click to expand...
 
IMHO, it's the exceptional user interface (just compare with Adobe ARC and (LOL) FVU) and excellent output makes C1 a incredible piece of software.
Olli Nuutinen said:
Olli Nuutinen
MichaelT said:
No excuse, but it is based in some fundamental changes that need to
be made in the poct releasae. You are right. This has gone on too
long. We hope the Oct release to be a new benchmark for our
superior quality, and get rid of the few anomolies that we have.,
It is being worked on as we speak.

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
--
Olli Nuutinen - http://www.6mpix.com - Weblog: photography & EOS 10D
Click to expand...
--
Mskad.
 
I just tried it with Capture One 3.5 DLSR Pro Trial version and it was included in the software installation.
Doug Morgan said:
Thanks
Doug
Olli Nuutinen said:
Doug Morgan said:
it works with that image quite well... but how about pics wiht
people and bright lights, candels, flowers... ?
Click to expand...
I continued testing this brand new software and in fact situation
isn't so bad it looked at first sight. I tested again my
problematic images with Sunset profile. It coped quite well in 75%
of cases. Biggest problem for the profile seems to be very bright
yellowish floodlights : / also some of the sunsets are too much.
And no there is possibility to add any extra saturation if don't
want to mess yellow.

But don't forget to make real bug fix ; ) Sorry about the hassle
it was so new and hot in my hands so there wasn't too much time to
investigate the situation.

Final statement: things are now much better than week ago :) Thanks
for that.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Olli Nuutinen - http://www.6mpix.com - Weblog: photography & EOS 10D
 
A little thing about customer loyalty. Sometimes it goes with the product and sometimes it goes with the person driving the support.

In this case, my key reason to get C1 was seeing at how Michael provides the support at different forums. He even answer emails on Sundays which I never expected a response until the following week.

I would rather have a mediocre product with great support anytime. That's a fundamental value in keeping customers with you for the long term.
MichaelT said:
Al Pacheco said:
I'm slow today...just reading through this now. There has to be a
typo or something. There's no way they would take away the 16-bit
conversion or the use of custom profiles. That's what C1 is all
about, after all.
Michael Tapes has been Phase One's main drum beater this side of
the pond for some time now. If they implode now then it won't be
for a lack of his business support. There's got to be a mistake.
Click to expand...
Al,

Custom profiles will return next week, but I am still at odds with
P1 management regarding 16-bit. You know where I stand and have
stood since I hear about the discussion. I will continue to throw
my weight behind this. (Maybe losing 30 pounds was not such a good
idea...I could use some more weight it would seem:> )

But seriously, not a lcughing matter in my mind. I will continue to
do whatever it takes. I cannot prmise that I (we) will win, but I
am already bloddy and am prepared to go the distance (if anyone
wants to read between the lines).

I regret this situation more than you know...

--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Senior Product Manager C1 RAW Workflow - Phase One
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
Click to expand...
 
You're kind of late coming to the party Eric. C1 changed their mind and is not dropping any features from LE. They also apologized.

Doug
Eric Helgeson said:
Eric
MichaelT said:
Doug Morgan said:
Michael:
Notably absent from your post is any mention of limiting LE to 8
bits. Is this true?
Click to expand...
It is true for now. I am working on it. LEt your voices be heard.
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Capture One DSLR Product Group
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com
Click to expand...
--
http://halest8.e512.org/gallery
Click to expand...
 
I'm always a day late and a dollar short.

Eric
Doug Morgan said:
Doug
Eric Helgeson said:
Eric
MichaelT said:
Doug Morgan said:
Michael:
Notably absent from your post is any mention of limiting LE to 8
bits. Is this true?
Click to expand...
It is true for now. I am working on it. LEt your voices be heard.
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Capture One DSLR Product Group
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com
Click to expand...
--
http://halest8.e512.org/gallery
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://halest8.e512.org/gallery
 
No problem. I think the accountants had control of phase one for a couple hours but the rebellion was put down.

Doug
Eric Helgeson said:
Eric
Doug Morgan said:
Doug
Eric Helgeson said:
Eric
MichaelT said:
Doug Morgan said:
Michael:
Notably absent from your post is any mention of limiting LE to 8
bits. Is this true?
Click to expand...
It is true for now. I am working on it. LEt your voices be heard.
--
Regards,

Michael Tapes
Capture One DSLR Product Group
http://www.RawWorkflow.com
http://www.michaeltapes.com
Click to expand...
--
http://halest8.e512.org/gallery
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://halest8.e512.org/gallery
Click to expand...
 
Paul,

I have been using C1 LE V1.2 for the last year and consider it to be one of the nicest applications I have ever used. The workflow it encourages is so simple and fast - it makes shooting RAW easier than shooting JPEG. HOWEVER, the "yellow/green neon" problem is a very real fault in the basic RAW conversion for the Canon 10D. In certain situations the pale greens and yellows in the scene really glow and look totally unnatural. I have encountered this problem most frequently when shooting back-lit foliage (mainly leaves on trees and also grass) and sometimes in sunset scenes.

As others have said it is possible to partially solve the problem (or workaround it) by careful choice of camera profile, and this is what V3.5 does, however what is really required is to fix the fault in the actual conversion process, and PhaseOne have failed to do this in V3.5.

This is extremely disappointing since they have known about this problem for the last year (I emailed them a couple of example images in June 2003) and they do, apparently, now acknowledge that this is a genuine bug in their conversion software, rather than just a matter of subjective taste regarding the reproduction of yellows and greens.

V3.5 SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED A FIX TO THIS SERIOUS FAULT

Now, just to rub salt in the wound, if I upgrade my current C1 LE from 1.2 to 3.5 (costing me $29) in order to get the new 10D 'Sunset Profile' which, I am told, goes some way to solving this problem, I will lose 16 BIT conversion. I should not be expected to pay to have a faulty product fixed and in doing so lose important functionality.

This is all a great pity because it has really soured my view of PhaseOne and C1, which (up to now) I have been extremely pleased with in all regards except, of course, its dreaded yellow/green neon problem.

Terry.
TargetSu said:
Do you have any examples? I'm curious...

--
Paul S.
Canon EOS 10D

http://www.pbase.com/paulsurette

'Friends don't let friends shoot Nikon.'
Click to expand...
 
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