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NTF Challenge Voting System: Let's go back!

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The more posts I read on this subject, the more I tend to agree with Petra. Let's keep the present system. Looking at the results from the last Challenges I think that the results would have been pretty much the same no matter what system would have bee used (top three or present system). The most notable difference is that more pictures were rated with the present system. The present system gives more points and tends to give every (or most) pictures votes. In this way more pictures are recognized, and we all feel good about the points we receive.

My only gripe with the present system was that I find it easy to put just few pictures in an order that represent my personal view. The more pictures I have to choose the less secure I am that I actually place the lower rating pictures in the "correct" order according to my personal taste. But I am sure that the pictures I voted on deserve my vote. Not just sure that the one I picked for 10 place should not have received my number 9 or 8 place. Or that one that I did not vote for would have deserved one of my lower rated votes. It is naturally more difficult to find the "right" order for many pics than just a few.

But after all this is not science. It is a game that we should find interesting and enjoy. And people who submit their pictures to the Challenge apparently want to get some form of feedback about it. I am more than willing to put in a little more effort in my voting and give my opinion on more pictures if somebody finds it useful. And we should perhaps try to give verbal comments on more pictures instead of arguing about the point system. I think most submitters would like to know what people like about their pictures and also get some constructive criticism (even if it "only" is the commenter's personal view).

Kind regards

Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member
 
... I went to re-calculate results of Challenge No. 23 according to the "old" 3-2-1 voting system.

Well, with the current (10-9-...-1) system the official challenge results say that 26 (twentysix) participants scored at least 1 vote (and should feel satisfied)

Now, listen: using the 3-2-1 system, the participants collecting at least one vote (happier, because 3rd is better than 10th), would have been...
25 (twentyfive!).

I could have gone wrong by one in excess or defect, due to the hurry of finishing conversion to Excel and calculations in just 45 min.

This is my last post in this thread. I expect the poll in the Challenge site to open soon. Of course, i'm ready to accept whichever result.
Ciao.

--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick
 
I'm sure most people enter to
Kaj E said:
get some constructive criticism (even if it "only" is the
commenter's personal view).
Click to expand...
and I agree that the "fun" element should not be forgotten. I really enjoy looking at the voting, and watching the positions changing. That is what is so unique about the NTF challenge. So many other challenges only show the winner at the end.

I think we're lucky to have this system and I'd be sad if it only showed the top one or three.
--
Gill
CP 4500
 
First, as I see it, any of the voting systems allow everyone the same opportunity to place at or near the top, so they'll all work.

But, I do think that having 10 to vote on increases inaccuracies. I can't keep track of 10 pictures and rate them from 1 to 10, and I doubt if anyone else does with any accuracy. I struggle to do my best when voting, but it's not very good, I'm afraid.

If I had 3 votes, I would spend quite a bit more time concentrating on those 3, and would feel better about my voting. Frankly, I would feel comfortable just voting for 1, and would spend a couple of days deciding which one I felt was more worthy. I suspect everyone else would tend to do the same.

As far as everyone getting at least one vote, I would feel better if I was one of many not getting a vote because there were fewer votes cast per voter than if I received last place, (either no votes, or 1 10th place carelessly cast.)

So, I say, go to 3, (or even 1 vote per person!).

Also, I suspect that the lack in interest in the Challenge is due to a lot of our players moving to the D70 forum. We just have to get our new members interested!

--
Warm Regards,
Miriam
Proud FCAS Member
http://www.pbase.com/miriamj/my_favorites

'Oh that a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for?' -Robert Browning

4 5 0 0
 
MiriamJ said:
First, as I see it, any of the voting systems allow everyone the
same opportunity to place at or near the top, so they'll all work.

But, I do think that having 10 to vote on increases inaccuracies. I
can't keep track of 10 pictures and rate them from 1 to 10, and I
doubt if anyone else does with any accuracy. I struggle to do my
best when voting, but it's not very good, I'm afraid.

If I had 3 votes, I would spend quite a bit more time concentrating
on those 3, and would feel better about my voting. Frankly, I would
feel comfortable just voting for 1, and would spend a couple of
days deciding which one I felt was more worthy. I suspect everyone
else would tend to do the same.
Click to expand...
MiriamJ said:
I also think that 10 votes is too many. My own preference would be be for 5 or 6 votes. After the first half dozen I find it difficult to choose between the remaing pictures.
Click to expand...
MiriamJ said:
As far as everyone getting at least one vote, I would feel better
if I was one of many not getting a vote because there were fewer
votes cast per voter than if I received last place, (either no
votes, or 1 10th place carelessly cast.)

So, I say, go to 3, (or even 1 vote per person!).

Also, I suspect that the lack in interest in the Challenge is due
to a lot of our players moving to the D70 forum. We just have to
get our new members interested!

I think the lack of interest is because the subject chosen is not specific enough. Take for example the current challenge. I think 'perspective' is a great subject but I dread to think about the variety of pictures we will have to compare and judge. Couldn't it have been more specific - say for example landscape or building perspectives. This would also help to develop our photo taking skills which is what the challenge should be about.
Click to expand...
Dave
MiriamJ said:
--
Warm Regards,
Miriam
Proud FCAS Member
http://www.pbase.com/miriamj/my_favorites

'Oh that a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven
for?' -Robert Browning

4 5 0 0
Click to expand...
--
http://www2.pbase.com/katocat

5700, Oly C50 & M300
 
...since you asked an intelligent question:
elias said:
Could you at least comment if my suggestion would work for you as a
voter? Or do you insist on being limited to top three for every
voter?
Click to expand...
...You suggested to leave each voter free to vote the 3 first, or the 5 first, or the 10... Correct?

So, if my free choice is to give just 3 vote, their values will be: 10 to the 1st, 9 to the 2nd, 8 ti the 3rd. Otherwise the weght of my votes is lower than if I choose to express 10 preferences - Correct?
But consider this:
Pic A is voted once at the the 1st place and scores 10.
Pic B is voted twice at the 5th place - scores 12 and wins!
Pic C is voted 6 times at the 9th place - scores 12 and beats A!
Translate: getting a discrete number of very pale appreciations (9th place!)

wins against getting a single strong one (1st place): it actually encourages mediocrity! This is IMHO, the weakness of the top ten system, and your suggestion (free number of preferences) cannot correct it.
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick
 
Hi elias, I should have phrased rank the top three as rank all but award the top three. I think it's very difficult to subjectively rank 10 photos in any meaningful representation and I think the majority of voters will not put a lot of thought or time into ranking 10 finishers subjectively.
Sometimes picking a favorite out of three contenders is challenging enough.

SD
elias said:
Sid,
I do not argue your right to like the "top three" system, but your
analogy with Olympics does not seem quite right: in Olympics they
award medals to top three at the end, but in the process every
judge gives marks to every participant. Eg: figure skating,
gymnastics. I have never seen a single judge pick their top three
(or ten). Not that it has to impose anything on us...

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
Click to expand...
 
The following should be nominated to the poll:

1. "old system" - three mandatory votes, 3-2-1 points
2. "present system" - ten mandatory votes, 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
3. six votes, 10-7-5-3-2-1, mandatory or not
4. ten or fewer votes, 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (voter can stop at any vote)
5. ten or fewer votes, 10-7-4-2-2-2-1-1-1-1 (voter can stop at any vote)

Anything I missed? Please advise. Also, I think if none of these gets close to 50% of votes, we might need a second tour - with two leaders :)
----------------------------------------

Personal note:

having seen a lot of negative feedback, the last thing I would pick is a present "top ten" mandatory system. Obviously it kills fun for people who only care for top three (or one). But I had to include it as it had positive comments too. I want to ask people who liked it: please consider #4 or #5 - for peace sake!

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
 
Rapick said:
elias said:
Could you at least comment if my suggestion would work for you as a
voter? Or do you insist on being limited to top three for every
voter?
Click to expand...
...You suggested to leave each voter free to vote the 3 first, or
the 5 first, or the 10... Correct?
Click to expand...
Yes.
rapick said:
So, if my free choice is to give just 3 vote, their values will be:
10 to the 1st, 9 to the 2nd, 8 ti the 3rd. Otherwise the weght of
my votes is lower than if I choose to express 10 preferences -
Correct?
Click to expand...
Yes. With two amendments:

1. i believe that having you enter a short vote 10-9-8 (while others enter votes of ten) is still better than no vote from you at all. better for everybody. i mean it.

2. the scale might be set up somewhat like 10-7-4-2-2-2-1-1-1-1, so the loss is not so big if you stop after three. but IMHO still enough fun for others who are willing to go further.
rapick said:
But consider this:
Pic A is voted once at the the 1st place and scores 10.
Pic B is voted twice at the 5th place - scores 12 and wins!
Pic C is voted 6 times at the 9th place - scores 12 and beats A!
Translate: getting a discrete number of very pale appreciations
(9th place!)
wins against getting a single strong one (1st place): it actually
encourages mediocrity! This is IMHO, the weakness of the top ten
system, and your suggestion (free number of preferences) cannot
correct it.
Click to expand...
Well, if that picture A was so great, then tell me why among those 6 people who voted for picture C (and nine other pictures with it) none gave a single point to that A? Probably was not so great... I'd say, based on previous experience, neither A nor C would place high in the final table. Agree?

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
 
One thought: would it be acceptable to require at least top three mandatory votes for all non mandatory alternatives?
elias said:
The following should be nominated to the poll:

1. "old system" - three mandatory votes, 3-2-1 points
2. "present system" - ten mandatory votes, 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
3. six votes, 10-7-5-3-2-1, mandatory or not
4. ten or fewer votes, 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (voter can stop at
any vote)
5. ten or fewer votes, 10-7-4-2-2-2-1-1-1-1 (voter can stop at
any vote)

Anything I missed? Please advise. Also, I think if none of these
gets close to 50% of votes, we might need a second tour - with two
leaders :)
Click to expand...
The potential second round is a very good idea!
elias said:
----------------------------------------

Personal note:
having seen a lot of negative feedback, the last thing I would pick
is a present "top ten" mandatory system. Obviously it kills fun
for people who only care for top three (or one). But I had to
include it as it had positive comments too. I want to ask people
who liked it: please consider #4 or #5 - for peace sake!

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
Click to expand...
Kind regards
Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member
 
is that you essentially "split" the vote between those who want the system to revert to the old way - and five different choices for a new way. It's like five Republicans running against one Democrat. The "revert to 1-2-3" voting group would win easily because the "don't revert" voting group would be split amony four other choices.

That's essentially the problem with the first vote which took us to 19 choices. The "don't change anything" group (and I was among that group) had the higher percentage, but the "change it to..." groups totalled more than 60%.

A fairer way of doing it would be to ask the question: "Revert or keep it the same?" And then a second question: "If it were to revert, what would your preference be?"

My vote would be to keep it the same until the end of the year and then revisit the question so as not to screw up the "Yearly Stats." (Of course, I'm near the top of the list on those stats, so what else would I say!)

But I really think this is a lot of hullabaloo about nothing. Far too many electrical photons and brain cells have been wasted on this issue. (It reminds me of the storm which erupted over the dslr owners posting here a couple of months ago.) It's time to lighten up.

--
John DeSanto
View my galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/jjdesanto1/galleries
C P 5 7 0 0 - Mac 0SX 10.3 - PBase Supporter
 
--
Muriel - 4 5 0 0, 9 9 5, 3 1 0 0, W C-6 3, T C-2 E
DPR and Pbase supporter
FCAS Charter Member
 
I agree with the poll. But what do you think if we run a second poll if the first most vote option of the first can’t get more that 50% of the votes?

This second poll will be run with only two option, the most voted option of the first poll.

--
JL
http://www.termotronic.com/challenge/
FCAS Member
 
Jose Luis said:
Yes! What about rate all images? From 1 point to 10 point.
Click to expand...
I think it is a good tool for a first individual screening, but it will not work for putting the submissions in a final order. As I said in my first post on this topic:

The idea of giving each picture a grade between 0 and 10 will not work alone instead of a vote. Every voter applies their own grading system. To assign a picture a first, second, third etc. place requires a comparison and forced ranking between the best pictures. This grade system would not find a real winner but for sure give every picture a very subjective number.

And part of the fun is the competition.
Jose Luis said:
I can be done it any time.
Since someone upload the first photo and during all the process of
submit. Or at the end at the moment of the voting.
elias said:
Anything I missed? Please advise.
Click to expand...
--
JL
http://www.termotronic.com/challenge/
FCAS Member
Click to expand...
Kind regards
Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member
 
Jose Luis said:
I agree with the poll. But what do you think if we run a second
poll if the first most vote option of the first can’t get more that
50% of the votes?
Click to expand...
is between the "old" 3-2-1 and the "current" 10-9-...-1 (or any "watered" variation of the latter). So, let's go and vote the voting system, without spending months on that!
Thanks!
Jose Luis said:
This second poll will be run with only two option, the most voted
option of the first poll.

--
JL
http://www.termotronic.com/challenge/
FCAS Member
Click to expand...
--
Rapick
Old Glory Ninetynine-five
PBase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/rapick
 
Kaj E said:
Jose Luis said:
Yes! What about rate all images? From 1 point to 10 point.
Click to expand...
I think it is a good tool for a first individual screening, but it
will not work for putting the submissions in a final order. As I
said in my first post on this topic:

The idea of giving each picture a grade between 0 and 10 will not
work alone instead of a vote. Every voter applies their own grading
system. To assign a picture a first, second, third etc. place
requires a comparison and forced ranking between the best pictures.
This grade system would not find a real winner but for sure give
every picture a very subjective number.
Click to expand...
Jose, as much as I personally like the "rate all" option, I think Kaj is right: it will require that EVERY voter rates ALL pictures. Otherwise look what can happen:

Pic A, and Pic B. Jose rates A = 10 (excellent), B = 9 (very good). Elias rates A = 7 (certainly good), B = "unrated" (probably good, but cannot say for sure). ....The final rating: A = 8.5, B = 9. Pic B wins.

So if we add it to poll, we must formulate it as "voter rates ALL pictures". Do you think we should add it?

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
 
I think that the problem is not resolved by having everybody grade all pictures, without placing them in order (placements). My reasoning: every voter applies their own scale for the grades unless less there is a detailed written specification of what each grade means. For instance if I would happen to be very critical and not find any picture worth a 10 but the best rating would be 7. My vote for the best picture would weigh less than the more liberal votes of voters with plenty of 10's.

Also if there would be a well defined grading system there would still be the problem that many pictures would end at the same grade level. To choose the best ones there would need to be a forced placement of the pictures with the same grades to pick first, second and third picture.

As an example I can describe the method used by the Chicago Area Camera Club Association for their competitions:

There is a panel of judges for each competition. The judges are first required to grade the pictures according to the Judges Handbook that defines the available grades of 9 (best) through 3 (worst). The link is here (warning large file):
http://www.chicameraclubs.org/documents/Judginghandbook2002.pdf

When this is done only pictures that have received combined points over a certain level are chosen for the final. Here the judges are shown all the pictures that have passed the minimum total point grade. They are then required to through out pictures. This happen in several rounds, until only the winner is left. The pictures that were thrown out last get the following places and so on.

Many times the pictures that got the highest ratings initially do not place in the top when the forced placing is done. This is because the pictures now are rated against each others. This is a much more accurate way when the purpose is to find the first, second third etc pictures

I think this voting system is quite good, but it is if course way to complicated in our situation. I however feel that it shows the advantage of placing the pictures in order (first, second third etc.) over giving the pictures only grades if we want to nominate the best pictures in a competition.

The grading system is good as used now in order to help the voters with their final votes.

Kind regards

Kaj
C P 5 7 0 0
http://www.pbase.com/kaj_e
WSSA member
elias said:
Kaj E said:
Jose Luis said:
Yes! What about rate all images? From 1 point to 10 point.
Click to expand...
I think it is a good tool for a first individual screening, but it
will not work for putting the submissions in a final order. As I
said in my first post on this topic:

The idea of giving each picture a grade between 0 and 10 will not
work alone instead of a vote. Every voter applies their own grading
system. To assign a picture a first, second, third etc. place
requires a comparison and forced ranking between the best pictures.
This grade system would not find a real winner but for sure give
every picture a very subjective number.
Click to expand...
Jose, as much as I personally like the "rate all" option, I think
Kaj is right: it will require that EVERY voter rates ALL pictures.
Otherwise look what can happen:
Pic A, and Pic B. Jose rates A = 10 (excellent), B = 9 (very
good). Elias rates A = 7 (certainly good), B = "unrated" (probably
good, but cannot say for sure). ....The final rating: A = 8.5, B =
9. Pic B wins.

So if we add it to poll, we must formulate it as "voter rates ALL
pictures". Do you think we should add it?

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
Click to expand...
 
As many of you have seen, the poll has been set up:
http://www.termotronic.com/challenge/ , section "News".

Please note that everyone can select several options that would be preferred or at least acceptable to them. I hope this should allow us avoid a second round of vote. Thanks for sharing your opinion!

--
Regards. Ilya 'Elias' Buchkin.
 
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