Simplifying Digital SLRs

Ever. They even had a speaker to make clicking & film advance
noises to mimic a film camera! This was needed because we KNEW
people would "fear" digital cameras in comparison to analog ones.
Well, IMO opinion, such 'features' are plain silly. THAT seems
like a useless feature. It is like designing an electrical car, but
still have it make the usual engine noise (and why not: the usual
puff of smoke coming out a fictionous tailpipe) because people are
used to it. Technology moves on.
If the camera doesn't need to make a noise, then why have it do so ?
Because w/o sound, it's difficult to tell when buttons are pressed.
The shutter release on DCs often don't offer much tactile feedback.
I wish mine made a LOUDER sound.

One mans junk is another mans treasure...

--
Charlie Davis
That's pretty much why it was done, for feedback. These were very low end $100-200 cameras, and didn't even have LCD previews, or even removable storage (no popular consumer flash standard back then). Kids also loved that feature.

Of course technology moves on, but remember, this was the very early days for consumer digital cameras.
 
The fact that you have to set it once is even too much. It needs
to be completely modeless, as it's way too easy to accidentally hit
a switch that changes a camera mode into some weird state that you
spend minutes figuring out. Another scenario is when you're trying
to figure out why your camera is doing something wrong, and you're
forced to try unknown switches.. ("Why isn't my flash working?!?
God maybe it's in some "Mountain" mode.. how do I turn that off?
Oh great now I changed the ISO setting! ARGH!!")

If any of you have engineering backgrounds, you'll know what I'm
talking about, with state machines- you always try to minimize the
number of possible states to minimize our system's complexity. The
advanced digital SLRs are supreme examples of BAD engineering, and
how marketing forces people to accept BAD engineering as
"features". Just look at this forum- people LOVE their useless
"features" like Program modes, file settings, and what not. The
camera geeks out there don't realize how much time they wasted
learning a new useless "feature" on a camera- They could have saved
HOURS from their lives had the camera manufacturers designed the
digital SLRs to be more intuitive and correct.
 
Good you brought your points up: It is good to reconsider any of them.

I was just on a point to start thinking about superfluous gadgets of high end prosumer cams.

Things that I would not miss are: Sound recording, movies, movies with sound, beeps, automatic pop up flash, attention attracting assisting or warning lights, program modes, electric zoom, so many push buttons that you can't grab the camera without touching one, TV out, direct printing, clock, digital zoom, double memory slots, sepia or B&W pics.
Hans
 
Too true. Amateurs have time to play. Pros have to work and earn a living. Your average working pro is pretty ignorant based on the people I've met.

Don't get mad. I know there a lot of incredibly brilliant and knowledgeable pros, just look at some of the web sites out there. But these are world class professionals. But your average working photographer doesn't seem to be that great. Our company photogapher doesn't like inkjets because of all the little dots in the pictures, and insists that film has 50 MB of resolution . . .
 
Good you brought your points up: It is good to reconsider any of them.
I was just on a point to start thinking about superfluous gadgets
of high end prosumer cams.
Things that I would not miss are: Sound recording,
Not so. Sound recording, if not connected with movies, is a great feature to describe photos instead of mocking up some weird naming schemes. Sound tags are a very good idea (for example, you can always mention: exposed with flash, -1 EV correction, +1 flash EV correction, under mixed tungsten, fluorescent and daylight lighting).
movies, movies
with sound,
Ditto.
As long as you can turn them off. However, I do find audible focus confirmation a must with non-SLR cameras, especially if you have thousands of various data displays in the EVF (histogram, exposure parameters), and you can't follow a focus frame - it does blink.
automatic pop up flash,
Ditto. There's no point. If I want flash, I can raise it myself. I can't imagine how many times I had auto flash on a SLR, and a noisy mechanism sprung up the flash - bothering the subject and spoiling a perfect situation. Hand raised flash is a lot better - you know you have it on (or auto) or off (off). And - if I needed flash - I had to exit a room to raise it, and return to finally take the picture.
attention attracting
assisting or warning lights,
Ditto, unless they are cleverly made to be visible to the photographer only. Or - on demand AF assist light. The system on high-end SLRs (near-infrared stripe pattern) and Sony prosumers (laser pattern) is not bothersome, and better that than no focus at all.
program modes, electric zoom,
Ditto
so many
push buttons that you can't grab the camera without touching one,
Unless they are well positioned, and you do have a grip area without any buttons.
TV out, direct printing,
No point in them, true dat.
Wrong. A clock, since you already do have one in your camera (or do you manage without knowing when a shot was made?), why not a facility to display it? I don't carry a wristwatch, and often caught myself checking the time on a camera.
digital zoom,
I don't know why some manufacturers bother with that. Oh, well. Anyway, 'digital zoom' is good when you're trying to focus (to get a magnified image).
double memory slots,
Not quite. I would imagine a future camera with two slots, one CF for large capacity, and another - smaller one, like SD - for storing:
  • photographer data
  • custom function presets
  • memory settings
  • language files
  • processing routines (like PNG saved with RAW instead of JPEG+RAW)
  • file naming schemes
  • viewfinder/LCD monitor layout (customiseable with a computer, call them "themes")
  • default camera behaviour (display which parameters after exposure)
Out of these, language files would perhaps occupy the most space but they are, by far, the most promising aspect of having dual card slots.
sepia or B&W pics.
Or in-camera digital effects. But, I guess, some people request that.
 
So basically, you want a de-featured 300D, which is already pretty de-featured as it is. I'm all for a bare-bones DSLR at a lower price, because all I really use on my 300D is the rudimentary features and settings. But some of your recommendations are going to the extreme. The good news is that it would probably drop the price down a bit. But the bad news is that many would consider it "cripppled" and "limiting". Those features you call "useless" really are useful to a lot of people.

Maybe someday, there will be a camera with nothing but a shutter button, ISO selection, M/Av/Tv selection, exposure compensation, and RAW. But until then, just tape over the features and buttons you don't want to use. Or just ignore them.
 
Consider that the median income of a professional photographer is around $20,000- who would you trust in the design of a complex engineering system like a digital camera? The photographer? Or an engineer, whose profession has a median income 3x that?

My guess is that most amateur photographers are professional photographers that were too smart to go into that field to make it a living. That's similiar to my sort of background, where I was doing both concurrently (TV camerawork and engineering) and switched full-time into engineering, purely for the money.

Agree? Disagree?
Too true. Amateurs have time to play. Pros have to work and earn a
living. Your average working pro is pretty ignorant based on the
people I've met.

Don't get mad. I know there a lot of incredibly brilliant and
knowledgeable pros, just look at some of the web sites out there.
But these are world class professionals. But your average working
photographer doesn't seem to be that great. Our company photogapher
doesn't like inkjets because of all the little dots in the
pictures, and insists that film has 50 MB of resolution . . .
 
Because w/o sound, it's difficult to tell when buttons are pressed.
The shutter release on DCs often don't offer much tactile feedback.
I wish mine made a LOUDER sound.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear in my explanation...

I can understand the camera makes a sound for feedback, but why does it have to sound like a shutter and even a film winding ? This soundclip usually sounds terrible (not at all like the real thing).

A simple beep (perhaps at different frequencies: one frequency for focus, another for shutter action) would suffice and could probabely be heard better...

Jörg
 
I was going to suggest that too. A bit of silver wrapping paper and some double sided sticky tape would soon produce his ideal. BTW, his spec doesn't include an "On/Off" button. In the long run this will cause problems...

Regards, David
Snip, snip, snip!
Maybe someday, there will be a camera with nothing but a shutter
button, ISO selection, M/Av/Tv selection, exposure compensation,
and RAW. But until then, just tape over the features and buttons
you don't want to use. Or just ignore them.
 
Just my two cents:
It's amazing how many useless "features" the camera makers are
adding to jack up their marketing feature list at the expense of
usability.
ACK
Things I wish manufacturers did:

1. Store all data ONLY in RAW format. (Thanks to Sigma for pushing
this.) This get rids of the useless "low/medium/high quality"
switch on the camera.
NO! I'm certainly doing a lot of imagery in raw format, BUT from time to time there are events where I don't carry my own laptop computer but instead have to rely on other peoples computers to display my pictures, send them via email, or copy them to my homepage very fast. This is only possible with the Jpeg format. This way I can simply hook up a card reader to nearly any computer and get my images in a format widely understood without the need for proprietary (and copyrighted) software!
2. Store all data at the highest resolution. Get rid of the
"small/medium/large" switch.
I more or less agree. But here also, sometimes the task at hand requires a large number of low-res, small in size Jpegs, e.g. for web presentations. (I'm not talking of artful pictures but more of documentations). Why waste card space for information that is not needed afterwards?
3. Get rid of in-camera white-balance setting, and do this on the
computer or laptop or even palmtop to simplify the camera and force
the complexity outside.
WB on the location is necessary. For pro work it might be ok simply to measure WB on location and do the correction in software afterwards. I certainly would complain if I had to do a manual WB on each and every picture (if I got started now I could be finished before I get 99).
4. Get rid of the Priority knob- Aperture, Shutter, Etc.. Instead,
let there be an "Auto" option for shutter and for aperture on their
own dials...
At least I'm perfectly happy width the command dials of my D70. Why stick to an old-style control which was justified by mechanical needs and not by usability? Simply because you want a complex DSLRs be as simple as an old-fashioned mechanical SLR? Should we skip exposure metering also? Maybe autofocus comes out of hell, throw it out of your camera! Bulls* t!!!
Digital photography is different from old-fashioned film work. Get used to it!

5. Get rid of Program metering modes.
The scene modes are perfect if you know what they are doing. I'm certainly using portrait mode from time to time since it is doing exactly what I would be doing manually. BUT I agree, Nikon should document these modes in technical terms and not only by "can be used for...".
6. Use more traditional "obvious" lens controls instead to make
manual control easier:
You have focus, zoom and aperture control on different rings on your optics. With high-end SLRs/DSLRs you can use it that way. "low-end" DSLRs don't allow you to use the aperture ring. With the D70 I'm perfectly happy with the manual control (MF on focus ring, zoom on zoom ring, shutter on back dial, aperture on front dial).
7. Get rid of on-camera flashes settings
I don't care of these settings since I rarely use a flash. But I can't complain that I find the settings confusing.
8. Get rid of on-camera image processing.
See above what I said about the Jpegs. It is not always possible to do image processing on the host computer since you don't always have the possibility to install proprietary software (which a raw processing feature would be!). With the in-camera image processing I get perfect looking Jpegs for "normal" situation which I can transfer to nearly every computer with an USB interface/card reader without the need for any additional software!
Another "feature" I hate: modal buttons.
I certainly agree, BUT again, for X functions you have the choice of putting X buttons/dials/whatevers around your camera or you use less then X modal buttons. I more or less like the way the D70 handles this with TWO (not four or five) different modes for the commands: playback and record.
Also, if you want image-processing, sell a seperate palmtop
AGAIN, you tend to repeat yourself. There are enogh situations which need in-camera image processing and the output of widely readable formats. AND: I'm already carrying a large backpack with accessories. I certainly don't want to carry even more!
Some people may want all these useless features.. for them the
camera vendors can have their own special overfeatured model. I
would rather have one that's simple and obvious... Let's enable
people to take more pictures, rather than confuse them with a
complicated camera.
I agree with you that maybe there is no user which uses all options on a DSLR. Camera manufacturers, such as other manufacturers, want to make money with their productes. So they either make one model for a small number of custumers satisfying all their needs and charging outragous amaounts of money because only few units will be sold. Or they make a "mass-market" approach, building a product which satisfies the needs of a large and heterogeneous amount uf custumer with the drawback that not everything is perfect for everyone and that each user only uses a certain set of the features.

Look at cars: Who needs more than one seat? Throw away the others. If you need to carry some people buy a large bus. Some people just tend not to use their flashlights. Why not build a car without them? Why do I have to have a control for frequency on my car stereo? I usually listen to only one station. And why the hell do they to sound processing in the stereo. With the help of a little inset in my ear I should be able to listen to the raw FM.... This is a little bit like what you ask!

steffen
 
I never could understand how Canon and Nikon users could use that horrible dial next to the shutter button. :)
I still reach for the aperture ring on my lens. 20 years of
training, and it is hardwired in your head. :)
Just be thankful you didn't grow up on OM-1. Shutter speed on a
collar around the lens mount. All the right hand does is hold the
body and squeeze the shutter.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
--
http://www.4-3system.com/
http://jonr.beecee.org/
 
Hi Joe,

I think you have covered the overwhelming majority of us! But, I still wonder if you spent wisely so much time.....
regards,
George
 
Because w/o sound, it's difficult to tell when buttons are pressed.
The shutter release on DCs often don't offer much tactile feedback.
I wish mine made a LOUDER sound.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear in my explanation...
I can understand the camera makes a sound for feedback, but why
does it have to sound like a shutter and even a film winding ? This
soundclip usually sounds terrible (not at all like the real thing).

A simple beep (perhaps at different frequencies: one frequency for
focus, another for shutter action) would suffice and could
probabely be heard better...
I agree. Mine makes a beep. It needs to be louder and controllable...I can only turn it on and off.

--
Charlie Davis
 
A simple beep (perhaps at different frequencies: one frequency for
focus, another for shutter action) would suffice and could
probabely be heard better...
I agree. Mine makes a beep. It needs to be louder and
controllable...I can only turn it on and off.
My point and shoot is completly controllable, and uploadable. There are separate soundsm, and separate volume controls, for:

start up
control operation
self timer
shutter

It gets worse, because you can put a complete set of sounds and background images together as a "theme" and the camera holds 3 themes. The CD that comes with the camer has about 30 themes you can upload, and Canon S400 users make and trade themes. It's a "cult" camera.

Mine are set for short "chirp" beeps. I made them in CoolEdit and uploaded them to the camera. I do have a "frogs" theme, but rarely use it.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Sounds like you went to the dark side...

;-)
I've always loved that song...

The dark side's calling out, nothing is real.
She'll never know just how I feel.
From out of the shadows, she walks like a dream.
Makes me feel crazy, makes me feel so mean...

Eddie! Eddie! Eddie! Eddie!

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Sounds like you went to the dark side...

;-)
I've always loved that song...

The dark side's calling out, nothing is real.
She'll never know just how I feel.
From out of the shadows, she walks like a dream.
Makes me feel crazy, makes me feel so mean...

Eddie! Eddie! Eddie! Eddie!
I was seeing images of Luke Skywalker and his classic battles with pop... Hmmm... ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
 
Why don't they build a gearless car? It's okay if it
doesn't move. We can just set it in the driveway and sit in it
every now and then.
There already are "stateless" (to the user) transmissions, have been for a while. CVT (continously variable transmission) technology has been around for 10-15 years (Subaru Justy was one of the first in the US) and is in a number of vehicles now. (The Toyota Hybrid, and an Audi, probably others).

Typically useful when efficiency is a premium as it allows you to make a very efficient engine -- only has to operate in a very narrow RPM range -- transmission seemlessly and constantly varies the gear ratio.

But your analogy (despite its flaws) is still useful. :-)

Severian
 
I never could understand how Canon and Nikon users could use that
horrible dial next to the shutter button. :)
It must be right, it's how Leica did it ;)

Nikons are very "Leica compatible", right down to screw in viewfinder accessories, and the weird cable releases used on the Nikon F.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Bad design. I design microelectronics as well....
I've designed CMOS Image sensors at Intel 8 years ago for some of
the earliest digital cameras...
He says he designs microelectronics at Intel and he writes this stuff!
You're worried about not having the ability to store thousands of photos at high frame rates on a camera that ONLY does high-resolution RAW mode.
Actually, there is a simple solution to this: Mutliple CF card slots on your camera. 2,3, or even 4. This multiplies bandwidth to store data at high frame rates, and it multiplies your storage space. Adding another slot wouldn't cost more than 25 cents for the connector... (Or we could just push for CF vendors to increase their write speeds, which is just as easily possible).
Hello? What about the extra data bus needed to connect to the extra card? This guy worked at Intel and doesn't know the first thing about computer architecture? LMAO! You can't make this stuff up :] Oh wait, you can :D
 

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