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Canon's Waterloo?

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Bob,

I wish I could agree that "Canon is not dopey". But I remember the 10D focus inaccuracy with pain. I got one of the first 10D's to ever ship. It focused erratically. Ultimately, Canon's Chuck Westfall admitted thta the focus sensors were larger than what is displayed in the viewfinder, and less accurate than the ones in 1-series models.

For what it's worth, I bought a second 10D at it appears to focus well. Canon did fix the problem. But not for many months.

Many here remember the 1D banding issue. We all forget that now, but it was a big stink with the 1D's. I recall Phil posting and asking in essence, "Hey I've been away, did Canon fix this yet? It's a great camera, but this is a black eye" (wording entirely my own).

Then there was the D30 low light focusing performance. It was abysmal.

No I do think Canon is dopey in the sense that they tend to use the marketplace "early adopters" to shake final bugs out of their products. They also sometimes just shrug off problems until the uproar is great enough that they can't ignore it.

DOES THE 1DMKII have these kinds of issues? Who knows? But I wouldn't put my faith in Canon to make it all right the first time.

Tom
Robert Burkhalter said:
I'll be the guinea pig. Everyone just hold off and let me have the
first one.
I'll check it out and let you know what I think.

I've said it before, Canon is not dopey. I believe they
purposefully utilize as many inferior images as possible in their
advertisements and on their website so NONE of their potential
customers will be killed in the stampede that follows the intro of
a new camera.

So, to repeat myself, back off. Let me get my hands on it first
and then y'all can have a crack at it. :)

Bob

Ger, you're doing a wonderful job of thinning out the crowd :)
Click to expand...
 
Tom Conte said:
I wish I could agree that "Canon is not dopey". But I remember the
10D focus inaccuracy with pain. I got one of the first 10D's to
ever ship. It focused erratically. Ultimately, Canon's Chuck
Westfall admitted thta the focus sensors were larger than what is
displayed in the viewfinder, and less accurate than the ones in
1-series models.

For what it's worth, I bought a second 10D at it appears to focus
well. Canon did fix the problem. But not for many months.
Click to expand...
I can't believe that I keep getting drawn in to these "it's a sure thing--the 1DMarkII is a failure and Canon is trying to cover it up" discussions. Note to self: Stop posting on this topic and just enjoy your 1DMarkII when it (finally) arrives.

Tom...I'm sorry to hear that your first 10D didn't function correctly. But I can't agree with your conclusions that "all early 10D's didn't focus" and that "Canon eventually fixed the problem". I pre-ordered a 10D and got one the day they were released by Canon. Mine copy does not have focus issues. Should I conclude that all 10D's never had focus issues from my sample size of one? No more than you should from your sample size of one.

The paranoia about 10D focusing happened because of the nature of internet forums like this one. People often seek out tech-based discussion forums when they are having problems and are looking for solutions. I bought an Onkyo receiver for my home theater. If I were to show you an Onkyo discussion forum, you'd think it was engineered by a toddler. The forum is full of posts about audio drop outs, clicking sounds, overheating, etc. My receiver has performed flawlessly. I bought a Toshiba TV, also for the home theater. If you were to believe everything posted in a Toshiba discusison forum, you'd be mad to buy a Toshiba TV. Convergence problems, halos, a "broken" design of upconverting 480p to 540p...the list goes on and on. My Toshiba continues to give me an excellent picture.
Tom Conte said:
Ultimately, Canon's Chuck Westfall admitted thta the focus sensors
were larger than what is displayed in the viewfinder,
Click to expand...
Which, if I recall correctly, is not limited to the 10D and has not been "fixed" in later 10D models. Such a design may not make you happy, but doesn't support the claim that 10D focus was orignally broken on every camera, only later to be fixed once Canon discovered the "problem".
Tom Conte said:
and less accurate than the ones in 1-series models.
Click to expand...
Is this surprising to you? Chevy Cavaliers and Corvettes both have brakes. Would you be outraged to learn that the Cavelier's brakes aren't built to the same tolerances or designed to perform to the same level as Corvette brakes?

You are entitled to your opinion that Canon has goofed up every one of its digital SLR camera releases. I just don't see the evidence. I'm confident enough in Canon's quality, as I have seen it, that I've preordered the 1DMarkII. Is it a risk? Of course, there's always a risk in being an early adopter. Am I likely to be disappointed? Absolutely not, IMHO. You obviously don't agree, so I'd cancel any preorders I had, if I were you. But posting numerous posts about how it is clear that the 1DMarkII is a failure and can't produce anything but a soft picture is a little over-the-top.

I hope you are satisfied, whatever your decision.

-Dan
 
Ger Bee said:
Then the fruit and wine studio (ƒ11) shots appear and I drop my jaw
with disappointment. I see the swimming shots, fantastic in the ISO
department but otherwise suffering from what I dub the ‘Kodak
effect’ I don’t want all the proposed PP stuff to get good
images, the 1D has me spoilt and it certainly is the act to follow.
Click to expand...
Those swimming pics are taken with too slow a shutter speeds vs. required enlargement. By looking at all samples by him, the photographer in question seems quite mediocre in technical skills so I would not judge gear based on those shots. With enlargement like 8mp on 96dpi CRT you will need about 1/800 or more to make such movement sharp. And I'm pretty sure his copy of Mark II is also preproduction one even if he says it is a production model. Simply because production models firmware is not cast in stone yet and even Canon did not have production models couple of weeks ago.

If you see a set of better samples in http://homepage.mac.com/ipi/mark2/1D2.html you can clearly see the effect lens quality has on Mark II. Those samples are taken by a good photographer with preproduction model and saved in AdobeRGB color space.

I converted couple 70-200L photos from that site, assigned AdobRGB and sharpened them with plain USM .8/150/0 which may be even too much for them (as you must see with



; ). They look terrific. And those are just JPEG's.

Why not more USM in camera? Please do the following empiric test:

Download



; to your disk.
Open it in PS.
Assign profile AdobeRGB.
Check histogram.
Apply USM .8/150/0
Check histogram.

See how USM "widens" the histogram? This is exactly the reason there is no point adding it on camera. USM or any sharpening method adds contrast. Contrast fiddling affects exposure. It affects noise. When you try to capture wide dynamic range you do not want USM there, you'd rather use all sensor and filedata range to store all the light you can get in.

Take care,

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
 
Pekka Saarinen said:
such movement sharp. And I'm pretty sure his copy of Mark II is
also preproduction one even if he says it is a production model.
Simply because production models firmware is not cast in stone yet
and even Canon did not have production models couple of weeks ago.
Click to expand...
I've yet to see a mainstream camera be significantly altered from "just pre-production" to production, the D2H wasn't, the 14N wasn't (though it did improve over a year), the 828 wasn't and I doubt the 1D-II will change either much
Pekka Saarinen said:
Why not more USM in camera? Please do the following empiric test:
Click to expand...
I think the point Ger is making is that the 1D was sharp with the sharpness turned off - he's on about Native sharpness produced by a very hi quality but very weak AA filter rather than in-camera processing like a consumer digicam. a natively sharp camera (like the 1D or Sigmas) needs very little in the way of USM

I'm still keeping an open mind about this but I don't think that the production cameras will differ from what we've all seen, I think the days of sharp images with the in-camera sharpness turned completely off will die with the Mk1 1D and the 1D-II will join the droves of "Smoothies" where USM is essential.. Just something we'll have to live with I guess - the end of an Era..

--

.........Some might say I'm losing it - Some may say that I lost it long ago - A lunatic I may well be - But Remember, I'm not the one who posted the 15-odd replies to my psychobabbly drivel ;-)

Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

EOS-1D - Sigma SD9 - Canon G5
 
Once this site puts up a full review, and people actually HAVE the camera and start to post uncompressed images freely, I don't have much interest in seeing the shots, as it is too early.
 
diesel4x4 said:
I post that the pics I see are cloudy and soft (which says its AA
filter, actually 4 of them) are way too strong.

Then the next 20 replys are he's a troll, look at his posts, etc.

The pics Ive seen I am not impressed with. The 1d,10d and 1ds all
blow it away.

Yes it has many nice features but the pics are soft and milky looking.
Click to expand...
--

When you have used one and can show that you cannot take better pictures than the ones posted so far, THEN you can comment with some authority - and WHO is posting these anyway because Canon certainly aren't; how did they actually get hold of a 1DMkII and Canons' permission to post - when everyone else seems to be under an emabargo?
Paul
 
See

http://www.seittipaja.fi/data/Photography_lessons/Processing/Lesson_2/_Sharpening.html

for what I mean by "de-fog". I routinely use (amount 20%, radius 60, threshold 0) as a first step.

Tom
Pekka Saarinen said:
Tom Conte said:
I keep on hearing that the shots, after manipulation in PS, look
great. In my own experiments, I needed more than a de-fog and
sharpen 2-pass in PS to get a reasonably sharp shot. I had to
re-USM several times. Guys, I lost count!
Click to expand...
See
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=8083971

Q: Do you find http://photography-on-the.net/01_24_70_01.jpg
(photo Copyright(c) ILLUSION Photography Inc.) foggy and unsharp?

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net
Click to expand...
 
Snowden said:
I would say "Indeed we are" Lots of of speculation! Very little
of anything else.
Click to expand...
..... then we are really talking JPEG, not RAW and with hardly anything done to the files prior to transfer.

Most correspondents here say the files seem fine after a good whacking in PP. It just supports my point, the camera is off base for its supposed target market and against the camera it is replacing.

But naturally I'll have to decide for myself ~ but I'll be taking delivery of suspect device based on what I’ve seen so far and the many comments of support in this thread.

There is still four ~ six more weeks and the time draws closer we will see much more.

--
Canon makes the work so easy ... I've prepaid the MK11

http://www.bonuspix.com
 
Ger Bee said:
.... I am a bit scared off the MK11
Click to expand...
You may very well be right to be scared, but I would never draw too many conclusions from pre-production samples. Also, you need to have confidence in the skill of the photographer, which if you don't even know who the photographer is, you can't have faith in his/her skill.

Wait till the machine comes out and read Phil's review, Rob Galbraith's review, and other reviews by people you know are competent. THEN draw a conclusion.

Caveat emptor!

--
JCDoss
 
Tom Conte said:
I got one of the first 10D's to
ever ship. It focused erratically. Ultimately, Canon's Chuck
Westfall admitted thta the focus sensors were larger than what is
displayed in the viewfinder, and less accurate than the ones in
1-series models.

For what it's worth, I bought a second 10D at it appears to focus
well. Canon did fix the problem. But not for many months.

Many here remember the 1D banding issue. We all forget that now,
but it was a big stink with the 1D's. I recall Phil posting and
asking in essence, "Hey I've been away, did Canon fix this yet?
It's a great camera, but this is a black eye" (wording entirely my
own).

Then there was the D30 low light focusing performance. It was
abysmal.

No I do think Canon is dopey in the sense that they tend to use the
marketplace "early adopters" to shake final bugs out of their
products. They also sometimes just shrug off problems until the
uproar is great enough that they can't ignore it.

DOES THE 1DMKII have these kinds of issues? Who knows? But I
wouldn't put my faith in Canon to make it all right the first time.

Tom
Click to expand...
Tom,

You just gave a great list of reasons for waiting until the bugs are ironed out whenever Canon introduces a new camera. So why would you ignore your own observations and experience and become the first in line for one? What's that they say...the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results? :-)

I know, I know...it's hard to resist the pull of the latest and greatest technical marvel...just pulling your leg a little. But seriously...given Canon's track record with new DSLR models...it might be wise to pull your pre-order and wait until the beta testers results are in.
 
There is a saying:

"He who is wet, is not afraid of the water."

I hvae got so much Canon equipment, and I have had every body since the D30 (except the 1Ds) that there is no fear or worry about any new camera that Canon is coming out with, just bring them on.

I see nothing to worry or chicken scratch about. Every camera has proved it's worth, and there is no reason to walk up to this one scared or bent over in a negative thoughts.

As they say in the gym, suck it up, just do it.
--
Peter Gregg
 
Paul Boothroyd said:
diesel4x4 said:
I post that the pics I see are cloudy and soft (which says its AA
filter, actually 4 of them) are way too strong.

Then the next 20 replys are he's a troll, look at his posts, etc.

The pics Ive seen I am not impressed with. The 1d,10d and 1ds all
blow it away.

Yes it has many nice features but the pics are soft and milky looking.
Click to expand...
--
When you have used one and can show that you cannot take better
pictures than the ones posted so far, THEN you can comment with
some authority - and WHO is posting these anyway because Canon
certainly aren't; how did they actually get hold of a 1DMkII and
Canons' permission to post - when everyone else seems to be under
an emabargo?
Paul
Click to expand...
 
Peter I agree 100%

personally I am getting the mark II as soon as it hits the street.

same sensor as 1ds with the fps of the 1d what is wrong with all you half empty types out there.

you can get caught up in all the techno talk that you like but at the end of the day either buy it or not - I won't lose any sleep over what you do.
Peter Gregg said:
There is a saying:

"He who is wet, is not afraid of the water."

I hvae got so much Canon equipment, and I have had every body since
the D30 (except the 1Ds) that there is no fear or worry about any
new camera that Canon is coming out with, just bring them on.

I see nothing to worry or chicken scratch about. Every camera has
proved it's worth, and there is no reason to walk up to this one
scared or bent over in a negative thoughts.

As they say in the gym, suck it up, just do it.
--
Peter Gregg
Click to expand...
 
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