Why I REALLY care about WB in RAW - buying an Expodisc

noisebeam · Mar 16, 2004

This is a good example of why WB is an aesthetic decision. Do you WB for perfect color mountains in the distance (i.e. compensate for haze) or do you WB for the wildflower that is 2 ft. from camera. Most folks would go for the flower as that is the subject and one expects distant mountains to be in a blue haze. Or what if the flower is in shade and the lake in mid ground is in sun? But the point is there is not one right WB for a scene - only for part of a scene.

Al

David Barker said:
Homl said:

David Barker said:

...what you want from the expodisc (or Pringles lid.) It seems to
me (and I just know someone will correct me if I'm mistaken!) that
all you are doing with one of these strap-on devices is sampling
the light in the area in front of the camera, in a general, diffuse
kind of way. Isn't that what the camera records when it does an AWB
reading without any additional devices? And isn't that what image
editing software does when it carries out an auto-correction (I
don't mean C1, BB or FVU, I'm talking about PWPro etc.)?

--
DB

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
DB

nubui · Mar 16, 2004

I did a similar test lately, didn't publish here though, 'cos it doesn't really have anything in that is easily recognizable (trees and such)

not sure how much value it will be to folks here, but now as you published your test pictures, here's mine:

I agree with you, AUTO is too cool, and OVERCAST WB is too warm (it was an overcast day too) - from my point of view, the pringles lid got closest.

cheers,
chris

--

My Photography: http://www.nubui.com/gallery/portfolio

New 300D users, please read the 300D FAQ first! Chances are that your questions have already been answered: http://www.marius.org/cgi-bin/fom?file=68

David Barker91965 · Mar 16, 2004

I entirely agree with you, and I'm more than content to take a few seconds to adjust the WB for a problem shot in C1. If others find the expodiscs and coffee filters etc. helpful then I repect that too, but I wonder whether there isn't a certain amount of pulling of wool over eyes going on in some of the publicity material I've read this evening...

DB

noisebeam said:
This is a good example of why WB is an aesthetic decision. Do you
WB for perfect color mountains in the distance (i.e. compensate for
haze) or do you WB for the wildflower that is 2 ft. from camera.
Most folks would go for the flower as that is the subject and one
expects distant mountains to be in a blue haze. Or what if the
flower is in shade and the lake in mid ground is in sun? But the
point is there is not one right WB for a scene - only for part of a
scene.

Al

--
DB

LeeBase · Mar 16, 2004

Homl said:
Isn't that an incorrect use of the Expodisc? I though you are
suppose to sample the light at the subject's position. Take the
camera to where the subject is, aim the camera toward the direction
you are planning to take the shot and take a reference pic with the
Expodisc at that position. Basically sampling and referencing the
light hitting your subject.

If you want to use the ExpoDisc as an "incident meter", then yes. Using it in this way can help you set the proper exposure IN ADDITION to helping with the white balance.

This takes the place of having a incidence light meter and holding it up next to your subject to take a reading.

If you just want to use it for white balance (all I do for the moment) then just aim it at your scene and shoot.

Lee

LeeBase · Mar 16, 2004

Thanks....of course you know what's coming next. Please test with something that the AWB handles badly...and see how much the pringles lid helps.

Lee

nubui said:
I did a similar test lately, didn't publish here though, 'cos it
doesn't really have anything in that is easily recognizable (trees
and such)

not sure how much value it will be to folks here, but now as you
published your test pictures, here's mine:

I agree with you, AUTO is too cool, and OVERCAST WB is too warm (it
was an overcast day too) - from my point of view, the pringles lid
got closest.

cheers,
chris

--

My Photography: http://www.nubui.com/gallery/portfolio

New 300D users, please read the 300D FAQ first! Chances are that
your questions have already been answered:
http://www.marius.org/cgi-bin/fom?file=68

pbleic · Mar 16, 2004

It isn't just about light. I recently took photos at a school play and white balanced them by eye. I was happy with the pictures, but the white balance was definitely a cr*p shoot. When I gave the pictures to my wife she told me that they were great, but the main character was wearing a shocking PINK dress and my photos showed a RED dress. Others agreed.

My wife has a strikingly purple coat. When I look at my recent travel pictures, if the WB is wrong the coat is blue. Everything else looks pretty good, including skin tones. But the coast is blue. A tweak here or there and I can get the coat purple and the skin tones OK. But I can't notice/memorize this for every picture.

Paul

DRG said:
pbleic said:

I just got back from a trip to Prague. Took lots of photos and
will be working on them. As usual, took them all in RAW. The most
frustrating thing is that the photos have little true white/true
gray. I have played with WB, but I just can't be sure what is
right.

Click to expand...

Paul,

When it comes to WB, what do you consider to be "right"? The
purpose of white balance correction is to recreate how the scene
would have appeared if illuminated in a particular spectral mix of
light rather than in the actual light that was present. Is it
really so important to normalize perfectly to such a standard? The
spectrum of daylight, the typical standard, varies with the
position of the sun in the sky. In addition, the illumination of a
scene consists not only of direct light, but of light reflecting
off of other large objects in the scene. Finally, even though the
brain white balances for you, allowing you to observe "white" even
under light conditions drastically different from actual white
light, this doesn't mean the process is perfect or that it's not
easily fooled in situations where there are multiple lighting
sources of different spectra. Standardization and calibration of
equipment may require setting an exact definition for white light.
But, this doesn't mean that this standard is absolute in an
aesthetic sense. Thus, it seems hard to justify seeking one right
answer, especially if it comes at considerable cost and
inconvenience. As with other aesthetic aspects of photographer, you
do have license to adjust the image so as to give you whatever
pleasing result you wish. If a given street scene might have
actually looked slightly different at the time you took the
exposure, that doesn't mean that this was the "correct" look of the
scene. A few hours earlier or later in the day, or with a few more
clouds in the sky, things may have looked different.

If you can't tell if a given scene is "right" when postprocessing
on your screen, than it's likely that nobody else can and that
there's nothing unnatural or obviously wrong with your adjustments.

David

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

LeeBase · Mar 16, 2004

David Barker said:
I entirely agree with you, and I'm more than content to take a few
seconds to adjust the WB for a problem shot in C1. If others find
the expodiscs and coffee filters etc. helpful then I repect that
too, but I wonder whether there isn't a certain amount of pulling
of wool over eyes going on in some of the publicity material I've
read this evening...

No wool...honestly. If you are happy with the colors coming out of the rebel, or are content to shoot raw and color balance each and every picture in C1 -- then there is no need for the expo disc.

Myself I have been EXTREMELY frustrated trying to get the color right even with post processing -- even with raw.

Just take a look at this gallery: http://www.leebase.com/picts/lippexmas

Here's an example:

This is AFTER color balancing. I spent several hours going through these 80 or so pictures and I still think the color sucks.

Then there's this gallery: http://www.leebase.com/picts/

It's another 80 or so picts I took the SAME weekend at a different party. Why black and white? Because it was a LOT easier to just turn them all into black and white than to try to color fix each and everyone.

Now maybe this isn't a problem for you. Maybe there is some magical trick that I'm unaware of that takes no time and fixes all your pictures. But for me, I dread taking hundreds of pictures at indoor events and having to come home and spend hours on the pictures.

Not to turn them into masterpieces -- just to get them to acceptable color.

Lee

FPSurgeon · Mar 16, 2004

pbleic wrote:
[...snip...]

pbleic said:
My wife has a strikingly purple coat. When I look at my recent
travel pictures, if the WB is wrong the coat is blue. Everything
else looks pretty good, including skin tones. But the coast is
blue. A tweak here or there and I can get the coat purple and the
skin tones OK. But I can't notice/memorize this for every picture.

Paul

[...snip...]

Just to echo your comments, blues and purples seem expecially prone to this problem...and can be a real nuisance to correct well sometimes. I'm no color scientist, so I can't tell anyone why purples seem to exhibit this weird behavior so easily (other than to consider that purple is mostly blue and red and a cooler WB will shift it to blue and a warmer-WB will add more red...or maybe this has something to do with demosaicing algorithms and the green pixels are virtually excluded when shooting some purples)...anyone who knows care to comment?

Drayken · Mar 16, 2004

I read about using coffee filters a while back, I think in the 10D forum. I use 2 filters. (the white, bleached kind). Point at what you plan to shoot, and take pic, then set CWB to it. IMO the AWB is "ok" for outside, but HORRID indoors. I never get good WB indoors, unless I set it custom. The 300D does not handle my kitchen lights well at all, as you can see.

LeeBase · Mar 16, 2004

A very nice improvement!

Lee

Drayken said:
I read about using coffee filters a while back, I think in the 10D
forum. I use 2 filters. (the white, bleached kind). Point at what
you plan to shoot, and take pic, then set CWB to it. IMO the AWB is
"ok" for outside, but HORRID indoors. I never get good WB indoors,
unless I set it custom. The 300D does not handle my kitchen lights
well at all, as you can see.

nubui · Mar 16, 2004

LeeBase said:
Thanks....of course you know what's coming next. Please test with
something that the AWB handles badly...and see how much the
pringles lid helps.

why did I know that?!

Here you go - this one's shot in a mix of tungsten and halogen light. AWB does remarkably well in this case even though it slightly over-warms the colors for my taste. The tungsten setting doesn't work well here at all. On the fourth picture I used manual white balance using levels and setting the color picker on the sheet of paper left of the coke bottle. I find this fully corrected image a tad too cold.

I still think the pringles lid does quite a good job here, especially given the fact that it comes for free with each box of pringles

--

My Photography: http://www.nubui.com/gallery/portfolio

New 300D users, please read the 300D FAQ first! Chances are that your questions have already been answered: http://www.marius.org/cgi-bin/fom?file=68

Karl Palsson · Mar 16, 2004

pbleic said:
Nothing different technically.

The question is, how do you get it right? After the fact, you have
no reference to "get it right."

That's right. And see, the thing is, neither does anyone else!

laughs It's so overrated.

Cheers,
Karl P

David Barker91965 · Mar 17, 2004

I know that blues & purples are notoriously problematic in terms of accurate reproduction in film and printed media - a point that is regularly made in gardening literature, as many striking-looking plants have blue/purple flowers and/or foliage.

On the assumption that this has to do with the proximity of violet to one end of the visible spectrum I would guess that this could also be the cause of the difficulties described with the DRebel, but it is just a guess.

--
DB

pbleic · Mar 17, 2004

Certainly much, much better. But a little cold. I would love to see a comparison with an ExpoDisc on this.

Paul

Drayken said:
I read about using coffee filters a while back, I think in the 10D
forum. I use 2 filters. (the white, bleached kind). Point at what
you plan to shoot, and take pic, then set CWB to it. IMO the AWB is
"ok" for outside, but HORRID indoors. I never get good WB indoors,
unless I set it custom. The 300D does not handle my kitchen lights
well at all, as you can see.

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

Elia Vecellio · Mar 17, 2004

Hi,

I am more of a regular in the Canon Talk Forum. My main camera is a G3 but I have used the 300D on a few occasions.

I tried reading posts of this thread to understand what you guys are doing with pringles lids, ExpoDiscs and coffee filters to improve WB, but couldnt find a step-by-step explanation.

So could someone please explain to me step-by-step what it is you guys are actually doing? Alternatively if you have a link to a thread or website with details, please post it here..

Sorry for the interruption,

Elia

pbleic said:
I just got back from a trip to Prague. Took lots of photos and
will be working on them. As usual, took them all in RAW. The most
frustrating thing is that the photos have little true white/true
gray. I have played with WB, but I just can't be sure what is
right.

So, I did a little experiment. Here is a snapshot - taken without
composition intent. I took it with Custom WB, using the "closed
cell foam" trick. So, you can compare Auto WB, Foam Filter WB,
Dropper WB (on the garage), and Daylight WB. The scene was
overcast, but a cloudy WB is way too warm. I tried to adjust WB
manually blindly (without looking at other settings) but the
results were all over the place.

My assessment: Auto WB is way too cool (my most recent observation
with my photos); filter foam is close, but a little too warm;
dropper is closest, but not perfect, and daylight is too warm.

Despite the ability to "adjust" in RAW, WB is very tricky. I am
going to be religiously tied to my Expodisc when it comes.
--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

pbleic · Mar 17, 2004

Put said device/food container/gas mask filter on your lens. Switch to manual focus. Switch to P mode. Point the lens covered with the device/food container/gas mask filter directly at your white source. Take a photo.

Now, go into the menu and choose Custom White Balance. Select the aforementioned photo as the CWB source. Now, change to AF mode and whatever you like to shoot in. Using the buttons on the back, shift to CWB mode. Everything in this paragraph is in the manual under "setting CWB."

Take a picture. preferably in RAW. Develop in C1 using the Custom or As Shot settings. Compare this to the AWB settings. Or to your best shot at Manual WB adjustment. Or to the presets. See which you think is more accurate.

Elia Vecellio said:
I am more of a regular in the Canon Talk Forum. My main camera is a
G3 but I have used the 300D on a few occasions.

I tried reading posts of this thread to understand what you guys
are doing with pringles lids, ExpoDiscs and coffee filters to
improve WB, but couldnt find a step-by-step explanation.

So could someone please explain to me step-by-step what it is you
guys are actually doing? Alternatively if you have a link to a
thread or website with details, please post it here..

Sorry for the interruption,

Elia

pbleic said:

I just got back from a trip to Prague. Took lots of photos and
will be working on them. As usual, took them all in RAW. The most
frustrating thing is that the photos have little true white/true
gray. I have played with WB, but I just can't be sure what is
right.

So, I did a little experiment. Here is a snapshot - taken without
composition intent. I took it with Custom WB, using the "closed
cell foam" trick. So, you can compare Auto WB, Foam Filter WB,
Dropper WB (on the garage), and Daylight WB. The scene was
overcast, but a cloudy WB is way too warm. I tried to adjust WB
manually blindly (without looking at other settings) but the
results were all over the place.

My assessment: Auto WB is way too cool (my most recent observation
with my photos); filter foam is close, but a little too warm;
dropper is closest, but not perfect, and daylight is too warm.

Despite the ability to "adjust" in RAW, WB is very tricky. I am
going to be religiously tied to my Expodisc when it comes.
--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

Click to expand...

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

noisebeam · Mar 17, 2004

Paul,

First thing I did when I got home was fire up C1 Rebel (1.3.1) and check what the preset kelvin/tone setting for the C1 WB pull down menu option for 'daylight' is.

It is 5450/3.

Are we talking about the same WB preset in C1? I am refering to the pull down menu that shows all the Canon presets, with the one used bolded. (not the user defined saved presets in the menu above) The other thought is maybe there is an in camera WB adjustment that affects presets that is enoded in exif and C1 reads.

This is odd.

Al

pbleic said:
pbleic said:

pbleic said:

No, sunny in C1 is 5050 -3. 5000 is typical sun, 5500 is
brilliant sun.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

noisebeam:

pbleic said:

This is very odd, my memory is usually never this off. I swear I
remember (after seeing it so many times, the values I gave above -
for C1 Rebel) I'll check tonight. Now that I just typed this
previous sentence I wonder if you mean the 'sunny' preset that
comes with C1 vs. the Canon Sunny. I'll bet thats the difference
and if you did say C1 sunny, not Canon sunny.

Click to expand...

pbleic
No, I checked this on a copy of C1 I have here.

webdog · Mar 17, 2004

Check this out...

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/old/64826/0#569659

WebDog

pbleic said:
Paul

Drayken said:

I read about using coffee filters a while back, I think in the 10D
forum. I use 2 filters. (the white, bleached kind). Point at what
you plan to shoot, and take pic, then set CWB to it. IMO the AWB is
"ok" for outside, but HORRID indoors. I never get good WB indoors,
unless I set it custom. The 300D does not handle my kitchen lights
well at all, as you can see.

Click to expand...

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

Elia Vecellio · Mar 18, 2004

pbleic said:
Now, go into the menu and choose Custom White Balance. Select the
aforementioned photo as the CWB source. Now, change to AF mode and
whatever you like to shoot in. Using the buttons on the back,
shift to CWB mode. Everything in this paragraph is in the manual
under "setting CWB."

Take a picture. preferably in RAW. Develop in C1 using the Custom
or As Shot settings. Compare this to the AWB settings. Or to your
best shot at Manual WB adjustment. Or to the presets. See which
you think is more accurate.

Elia Vecellio said:

I am more of a regular in the Canon Talk Forum. My main camera is a
G3 but I have used the 300D on a few occasions.

I tried reading posts of this thread to understand what you guys
are doing with pringles lids, ExpoDiscs and coffee filters to
improve WB, but couldnt find a step-by-step explanation.

So could someone please explain to me step-by-step what it is you
guys are actually doing? Alternatively if you have a link to a
thread or website with details, please post it here..

Sorry for the interruption,

Elia

pbleic said:

I just got back from a trip to Prague. Took lots of photos and
will be working on them. As usual, took them all in RAW. The most
frustrating thing is that the photos have little true white/true
gray. I have played with WB, but I just can't be sure what is
right.

So, I did a little experiment. Here is a snapshot - taken without
composition intent. I took it with Custom WB, using the "closed
cell foam" trick. So, you can compare Auto WB, Foam Filter WB,
Dropper WB (on the garage), and Daylight WB. The scene was
overcast, but a cloudy WB is way too warm. I tried to adjust WB
manually blindly (without looking at other settings) but the
results were all over the place.

My assessment: Auto WB is way too cool (my most recent observation
with my photos); filter foam is close, but a little too warm;
dropper is closest, but not perfect, and daylight is too warm.

Despite the ability to "adjust" in RAW, WB is very tricky. I am
going to be religiously tied to my Expodisc when it comes.
--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Paul

------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003, 2004 All rights reserved.

Why I REALLY care about WB in RAW - buying an Expodisc

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