>> proposed stf challenge rule change <<

Markjay · Mar 15, 2004

I think your idea has GREAT improvement on what is being done now!

I have always felt the same way but, when it came to hosting a challenge myself, chickened out in trying to "change things" as they were at the time.

I think one entry could mean MUCH more quality and less quantity and....
I'm all for it!!

My plan "B" wold be to go to a two image system..... sometimes you can't just chose one and, one may reflect a slightly different angle on the theme than the other, giving the artist a chance to express themselves with SOME variety

So, who made you so smart? Was it influence from Mom? Dad? Harry Behret? lol Or, maybe the incredible genius of Shay Stephens or Ulysses is starting to rub off on you? ;-)

Mark J

Andy Williams · Mar 15, 2004

Shay Stephens said:
I have been wanting something like this for a long time now. I
totally agree with one image only. It really forces you to knuckle
down and present your best work. And allowing for changing your
picture is a nice compromise for those who want to experiment too.

I like the 3rd gallery for comments, just make sure to keep it from
being a votable gallery. Any picture in the 3rd gallery would be
assumed critical comments desired. That would keep things fresh
and hopping, and then the best image or the final version of the
persons images wuld be posted into one of the voting galleries.

I like it.

--
Portfolio: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp

--
-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

faither · Mar 15, 2004

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

--
http://www.pbase.com/jdfaith (pbase supporter)

Shauni · Mar 15, 2004

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

zazoo1994 · Mar 15, 2004

jr60004 said:
In one respect I do agree. I do not like to see two or more images
of the same subject. But if someone is lucky (or creative) enough
to conjure more than one idea for a given topic the option to post
them should be available.

This is my feeling as well. I think that if someone is creative enough to find more than one subject for a particular

Andy I agree with your idea in spirit as it encourages the photographer to think more, but I do think that it could punish those who are more creative... Perhaps a trial period of your idea would be suitable and then get peoples feedback?

Just my thoughts...

Lee

poepog · Mar 15, 2004

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

--
http://www.pbase.com/enricopog
Equipment in profile

Civilization was not born from labour, but from freetime and game

Shutter. · Mar 15, 2004

Hi Andy, although I don't participate in these challenges quite as often as I used to, I have a couple of thoughts:

I think 1 entry may be a little on the short side... but maybe two entries would be fine. But... you can't replace images. That would drive me nutso to comment on someone's image,, or to like it, and then have them yank it in favor of one they like better. I do like the "working" gallery idea, though, that may help remedy that situation.

With fewer entries, people will be much more likely to wait until the end before they submit anything, so along with fewer entries I think you'd need have a much shorter challenge period.

All this said, you're the host, you could have limited it to only one entry.

The host makes the rules, and I think variety is nice!

Jim

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366

You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you want!
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.

ChristinH · Mar 15, 2004

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

Jose Maria Simoes · Mar 15, 2004

My apologies to everyone because I'm a new comer but ...

Well, the challenge it's not a car race, so ... maybe .... 4 pic's it's allright. If it was a car race and one brakes the engine during the race you would still have the others to reach the end of the race, but it's not the case. If you enter 4 pic's to the challenge you will have 4 different pic's evalueted, not the group of 4 but each one per si. So, you will get votes for (or not) your pic's. So, you see .... you are free to enter only one pic and if it is realy good you problably will get your pic voted. Ok,if we all enter only one pic, maybe the galery would have less pic's (less work to select and vote). Still, we are not enter in an contest for money, so i fill that's if we enter 10 pictures (not only 4) we will have a lot of pic's to see (share & learn with experiments). Anyway, we all have a lot of fun taking pic's (to enter in the challenge) and pushing foward. You know, quantity isn't quality and if you enter a lot of low quality pic's you will not see your work voted. So, guys, it's up to you (the grown up's) to decide.
;-)

ChristinH said:
Andy Williams said:

i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

Click to expand...

--
Jose Maria

Davev76 · Mar 15, 2004

Most of the time the picture I think is my best gets few or no votes or comments. More often than not, the "throw in" pic will at least get me a few at a boys.

Looking at this thread, it looks as if I'm in the minority so I'll go one more step. Leave the names off til after voting. It would be a real pain, but possible. The "boss" would have to set-up, or give out a email address so people could tell them what picture is theirs. After the vote, said boss could fill in the top names, anyone else that want's others to know that a picture is theirs could fill it in themselves. With only one picture entered, the more I think about it, it may not be that hard to do.

I'll add one more about voting. When we put a picture up, why don't we just number the pictures as we go along. For example: 1-dogs- dave v. (with or without name of photographer)
If a person removes an entry, that number is lost.

Then when its time to vote, it would look like this:
4 points 3
3 points 58
2 points 37

I think would save a lot of time for the voters.

Thanks for reading. dave v

Andy Williams said:
i'd like to bring this up for a vote, can we please discuss this
for a few days and see if it makes sense to vote on it during the
challenge 64 voting next week.
**********************************************************************
i propose that the number of images that can be entered into each
challenge gallery be limited to one photograph per entrant.
**********************************************************************

i believe that this will have two big benefits

1. it forces the artist to really choose his or her best work for
consideration in the challenge, and should increase the overall
quality of entries. i am a firm believer that first and foremost
the artist has to fell good about the image. choosing from several
possible entries only what you think is best is a challenge in and
of itself.

of course, you may put an entry in early in the challenge, and if
you come up with a better (in your opinion) entry, you can delete
the initial entry and enter the new one (at the end of the line).

2. it should increase the number of folks voting. i think that
some folks are deterred from voting simply becuase of the sheer
number of entries.

since the purpose of our challenges is to challenge ourselves to
learn and grow, we could also do the following:

we could create a third gallery, a "working" gallery, where images
may be placed for critique and comment, prior to entry into the
eligible and exhibtion galleries. folks can choose to avail
themselves of this or not, individual's choice. we'd still leave
the ( ) available in the main galleries for more critical comments.
i've seen this work on another forum (fred miranda) and it seems to
play out quite well.

again, after some debate here on the subject, my intention would be
to put this up for a vote to the forum on monday 3/22, when we vote
for the winners of the present challenge.

your thoughts?

-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

--
My Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/davev

proteus957 · Mar 15, 2004

Pictures posted should be anonymous until the voting ends.

gk08 · Mar 15, 2004

hi Andy

must differ on this one. although i am very new, i have always considered the challenges on STF to be very friendly contests, almost geared towards education as much as competition. i love to see the different concepts and treatments that come forth as artists delve into different techniques. the last challenge was an excellent case in point - you had the bus and the lunch bags - completely different pics but both were really good and it would be a shame to leave one out.

i like the concept of the working galery but i'm not sure that would really fly. nice bunch of people that we are, i have rarely seen any significant (constructive) criticism of pictures - at least to an extent that would allow differentiation between multiple pictures.

I'm aware i am slightly against the grain on this one. I am sure if someone feels strongly about this, they could set the ground rules accordingly when they run the challenge.

BTW - I really like the blind voting idea. (not having the artists name listed but submitting it directly to the challenge manager)

-gk

mlynn · Mar 15, 2004

I sometimes find that my favorite photos garner little or no attention, when some I've thrown in as just an afterthought receive more comments.

And while I have no qualms with a challenge host occasionally limiting the submissions to one per gallery, if that's their preference (and just for something a little different); I do have reservations with the idea of making 1 submission for the eligible gallery a STANDARD or RULE. It feels stifling. And I've never been too fond of RULES ;-). I like to experiment, and play around with different ideas and approaches (if I have the time) for some of the challenges-- and post the results, and see what sort of feedback I get...if any. The idea of having to pick only one each time just seems a bit limiting.

That's just my feeling on the subject... (Afterall, I'm not here as a budding professional or serious Photographer; I'm just here to have fun.

mlynn

bee · Mar 15, 2004

I am uneasy about this proposal - I am an eager Amateur Photographer who enjoys the exchange of opinions, to bounce off ideas and above all to learn more about photography -

I suggest that rather than agree or disagree on Andy's proposal we go to first principals which is for me: what is the purpose of these challenges?

At the extremes of this - is it a means of learning for people of varying abilities or is it a competition for people who are at pro level?

If we answer these questions properly it should be clear to all of us what our individual objectives are and we might be able to make a decision that we can all buy into

Cheers, Bee

Andy Williams · Mar 15, 2004

i think the challenges definitely are for growth and competition. otherwise, why would we vote on winners?

you make some very good points -- but don't underestimate the need to be self-critical first (choosing 1 rather than 4) - it is a very good growth experience in and of itself

i know this personally, as several of my mentors here at stf have encouraged me to do just the same.

but - others have suggested a compromise and so maybe that's the best route.

finally, several have reminded us that it is the host's prerogative to decide rule changes... i knew that but one thing i've noticed is that there have been 3 or 4 entries allowed for the challenges for a looong time - so i think folks are used to it.

bee said:
I am uneasy about this proposal - I am an eager Amateur
Photographer who enjoys the exchange of opinions, to bounce off
ideas and above all to learn more about photography -

I suggest that rather than agree or disagree on Andy's proposal we
go to first principals which is for me: what is the purpose of
these challenges?

At the extremes of this - is it a means of learning for people of
varying abilities or is it a competition for people who are at pro
level?

If we answer these questions properly it should be clear to all of
us what our individual objectives are and we might be able to make
a decision that we can all buy into

Cheers, Bee

--
-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

tfcody · Mar 15, 2004

How about we just go to 2 pics. That's it, no other strings attached.

We could just make it a "recommendation", not a requirement that the 2 pics are of a different subject.

-TC

Andy Williams said:
you make some very good points -- but don't underestimate the need
to be self-critical first (choosing 1 rather than 4) - it is a very
good growth experience in and of itself i know this personally,
as several of my mentors here at stf have encouraged me to do just
the same.

but - others have suggested a compromise and so maybe that's the
best route.

finally, several have reminded us that it is the host's prerogative
to decide rule changes... i knew that but one thing i've noticed
is that there have been 3 or 4 entries allowed for the challenges
for a looong time - so i think folks are used to it.

bee said:

I am uneasy about this proposal - I am an eager Amateur
Photographer who enjoys the exchange of opinions, to bounce off
ideas and above all to learn more about photography -

I suggest that rather than agree or disagree on Andy's proposal we
go to first principals which is for me: what is the purpose of
these challenges?

At the extremes of this - is it a means of learning for people of
varying abilities or is it a competition for people who are at pro
level?

If we answer these questions properly it should be clear to all of
us what our individual objectives are and we might be able to make
a decision that we can all buy into

Cheers, Bee

Click to expand...

--
-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com -- galleries

challenge 64: who are the people in your neighborhood?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7959956

Cherilyn · Mar 15, 2004

Carlos Chacon said:
I agree on making this effective for the Eligible gallery only,
which is the most 'determining' gallery on the challenges.

As noted above, Exhibition has always been more for show and tell,
and for friendly critique/advice. So we could keep it on a few
shots per participant.

About a third gallery, well, I do not think that it is really
necessary, since we have the Exhibition one and it has worked very
well as is. Still, no problem here if the majority decides to
create one

Since there is a chance of changing the photo if you come up with a
better idea, there is a very good measure of liberty involved, IMHO.

Best Regards!
Carlos Ch.

--
'No change is permanent, but change is.' Rush
'Failure isn't about falling down, failure is staying down.'
Marillion.com
http://www.carloschacon.net - http://www.carloschacon.com
(Equipment on profile)

Daniel Chui · Mar 15, 2004

Very nice, socratic approach to answering these questions, Bee =)

Chui

bee said:
I am uneasy about this proposal - I am an eager Amateur
Photographer who enjoys the exchange of opinions, to bounce off
ideas and above all to learn more about photography -

I suggest that rather than agree or disagree on Andy's proposal we
go to first principals which is for me: what is the purpose of
these challenges?

At the extremes of this - is it a means of learning for people of
varying abilities or is it a competition for people who are at pro
level?

If we answer these questions properly it should be clear to all of
us what our individual objectives are and we might be able to make
a decision that we can all buy into

Cheers, Bee

--
Daniel Chui
http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?include=all&user_id=876030

Harry Behret · Mar 15, 2004

Hey Andy,

I like the idea for a few reasons. First I find the size of the galleries just to be too large at times especially the exhibition gallery. I usually try to leave as many comments as time permits but lately the size has been too large to comment on the individual shots. Also when its time to vote I would like to have more time to view each entry. Also I like the challenge of choosing just one shot to enter.

I don't think we will have any clear consensus on this issue so I would suggest that we just leave it to each challenge host to determine the format for his/her's challenge.

Harry

--
http://www.pbase.com/hpb

'We don't make a photograph just with a camera; we bring to the act of photography all the books we have read, the movies we have seen, the music we have heard, the people we have loved.' Ansel Adams

Jose Noway · Mar 15, 2004

... for many of the same reasons the others have stated.

I like going out at least a couple of times to shoot, i.e. the first time with immediate ideas, then the second (third, fourth, fifth??) time to either re-shoot the first go-round after some cogitating or to shoot other ideas I've thought out. I guess I wouldn't mind limiting entries to three, but limiting to only one entry wouldn't be as much fun. There's something about having your photos up there, comparing them to the other entries. If you are really honest with yourself, with a mindset open to learning, you will be able to tell what is good (and bad) about yours compared to the others after staring at them for a period of time.

If you guys decide to do this, I would propose that we change the length of time a challenge will run. Waiting two whole weeks before being able to go out to shoot other ideas is way too long to wait.

I would whole-heartedly support anonymous entries. I know others have been vehement that this didn't work before, but I haven't been able to get the why of it through my thick skull.

Working gallery? People have already started using the STF for that kind of thing in the last several challenges. I'd rather keep things to the challenge galleries, but if people are going to continue doing this anyway, then I'd vote against having a third gallery setup.

I don't get what people are upset about when they say they want two different subjects from a person (I think I'm missing something here). The way to really learn about something is by doing it over and over, seeing something different... or "more" each time you look. If it turns out people don't like my choices, then it's skin off of my nose and I've learned something from it.

Just my 2¢

Nancy

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