Too much shutter lag with digital rebel............

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Daniella said:
Daniella68313 said:

I guess I still am confused. Doesn't AI focus on the 300d do the
equivalent of AI focu on the 10d, that is use oneshot if no motion
is detected and kick in servo if it is?

Click to expand...

oh and does that work for you? does not work for 90% of the
people. The problem is that you can change that with the 10D so
why bother? we just can't change this. it's up to the camera.

In that case you should be

Daniella68313 said:

able to take several sequential shots (in continuous frame mode)
that are in focus once AI kicks in servo mode as long as you keep
the AF point on the subject. Have you tried half depressing the
shutter, track the bird for a second, then fully depress the
shutter? That way predictive focusing should kick in and cover the
lag. Perhaps I am still misunderstanding what you are doing or how
the 300d operates? - Gene

Click to expand...

problem is getting the damn thing to kick when needed and not to
kick when not needed. it has a mind on its own.

Daniella68313 said:

Daniella68313 said:

tracking the birds unless there were against the sky. I'll have to
check my harddrive tommorrow, i've got to go to bed. I do not take
several shots in sequence without refocusing, they would surely be
out of focus after the first shot, i'm not prefocusing either, i
push the shutter button fully with the center focus point over the
bird. Does anyone know the actual lag time? How about for the 10d?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

check out my messages in this thread. 128ms for the 300d and 68
for the 10D.

Daniella68313 said:

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

Click to expand...

--
Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Mornórëo Nóressë yassë i Fuini caitar.
Un thoron arart’a s’un hith mal’kemen ioke.
Saurulmaiel

It never seems to start when shooting a flying bird, but works great if your trying to recompose a shot of something static, that is not moving. I will try it next time since the birds in this situation are not going anywhere. If i were shooting birds that may not come back then this method would be less than ideal.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

icmp said:
You don't prefocus, just press without focus.. so, you
eliminate/reduce ONE of several factors I was suggesting could be
at work, but hopefully you've removed the most impactful one? (time
elapse from focus 'beep' to actually pressing release button)

I haven't read all the other responses, yet.. but maybe you didn't
my post where I asked if you've looked at the files using Canon's
File Viewer Utility to see where the focus box(es) were aligned
when the shot was taken? This can be revealing, at times. If, for
example, the focus box you thought was on the head shows up on the
feet/tail...?

Have you done this, and what does it show? OR, did I also miss
this in your original post?!?

icmp

PaulyOly said:

Some of you are not reading my posts, i do not prefocus first then
press the shutter button, i press the shutter button!!! There is
no elapse time!

Click to expand...

I never use 7 point autofocus, only the center box. When i take the pic the shot is somewhat infocus because i constantly half press the shutter in order to track the bird, so when i do press the shutter the camera locks focus and takes the picture all in one motion, the canon 400 f5.6L doesn't search for focus, this maybe hard to understand unless you've shot birds in flight with a tele lens.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

DMahoney said:
According to Imaging Resource's review of the 300D (see this page:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRA7.HTM ) the time for
shutter lag on full autofocus (which I take to mean just pushing
straight down on the button to take a shot, NOT pre-focusing) is
this:

"Shutter lag, full autofocus 0.250/0.278
AF speed will vary greatly depending on lens used. These numbers
are for EF-S 18-55mm. Quite fast. (Typical for an SLR, way faster
than even high-end point & shoot models.)"

There are timing tests for a lot more things as well, but from the
way I think you describe it, this is the time you are looking for.
Not just the time from focus lock, but also the time to focus as
well. How far a bird coming towards you would have moved in .250
seconds compared to the range of your DOF I have no clue, but this
is a measurement to look at anyways!
Of course, after focus, the shutter lag is only .142, so that's
probably the better value to look at. It also means it take 108ms
to achieve focus. Referenced only to THESE tests, of course. YMMV.

Don

how long it takes to focus is not really relevant here, i'm talking about the time it takes the camera to actually take the picture, so say you prefocus on something and hold the shutter button to keep the focus locked then start recording the time from there until the picture is recorded, that is shutter lag, i realize it is less than a second and hard to measure.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

, but not sufficiently, i will try it more tommorrow, what i hate is not the iso 400 thing, but being stuck at iso 400 and the camera choosing the aperture is going to suck, i mean at iso 400 in Florida i could shoot at f22 and still get a fast shutter speed and have everything in focus, ok maybe i am exaggerating some.

thanks Gary.

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

RATPhoto said:
There is of course some shutter lag. And unfortunately it is
significant for this scenario. Say the bird is doing 60 miles per
hour straight at you. That is 88 feet a second. If the shutter lag
is a quite snappy 1/10th of a second, that is still almost 9 feet.

--
If you are a new user chances are good your question is answered in
the FAQ at:
http://www.marius.org/eos300dfaq.php

For a gallery of my photographs, see:
http://www.pbase.com/ratphoto

See my profile for my equipment

but the theory is sound, i think the bird might be doing 20 mph, anyway i will try some of the suggestion in this thread tommorrow assuming we have a sunny morning like we are supposed to, i will try a lot of shots using AI servo be it in sports mode or me tricking the camera, i also want to try stopping down more and shooting at higher iso's to get good shutter speeds.

thanks Rat

Paul

--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Chuck A said:
Stan said:

..release using a custom wired remote. The button could be
anywhere you want on the camera. Other possible benefits.

Stan

Click to expand...

The time problem here has little to do with the speed of the
release button itself. It has to do with the time it takes the
camera to AF and then to do the calculations necessary to make the
exposure and to actually release the shutter.

When you think about it it is amazing that it happens as fast as it
does.

--
Thanks & God Bless,
Chuck
http://www.pbase.com/candrask

'Our actions are the demonstration of our character'

It's amazing to me how fast it can do all that after the focus is achieved. The time it takes the camera to autofocus is not really relevant here, the camera doesn't open the shutter until after autofocus is achieved, i think what's a work is simply the time it takes the camera to stop down the lens and open the shutter after autofocus lock is achieved. keep in mind that even autofocus lock is achieved in under a second with the lens i'm using. I think if i could manually focus ahead of the bird and press the shutter at the right time the bird would still be slightly oof because of the shutter lag time. Does someone who knows how to use a dof calculator know the actual dof at around 60 feet at f8 using a 400mm lens, i bet it's still in the inches.

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

banzai said:
Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a reaction time for the
camera (I think Phil includes this in his reviews), but I don't
think it's any slower than an equivalent film SLR. When I shoot
gymnastics I've learned the timing of the camera's shutter so it's
second nature for me to time shots on leaps and release moves.

I think the term "shutter lag" is usually used for the rather long
lag between shutter and shot on digital point-and-shoots (easily
200ms or more). Whereas I think SLRs start in the 80ms or faster
range. Totally guessing on those numbers from memory.

I'd be more inclined to blame a bit of that reaction time combined
with some AF inaccuracy. I find my 300D to be rather generous about
what it "thinks" is in focus vs what is really in focus -
especially at telephoto ranges.

May also be that when the bird is flying parallel, it's giving the
AF sensor a broader, more easily identified target upon which to
focus. Whereas the head-on shot could very likely be more difficult
for the sensor to cope with. That too would influence AF accuracy.

I feel your pain though. I took some shots at the LA Marathon on
Sunday with the runners coming towards camera. Almost all of them
were out of focus, even though I shuttered as fast as I could (AF
lock and shutter all in one motion).

That would explain why i got a couple of shots that were much sharper than others coming towards me, of course the bird could have been flying slower to, I will have to shoot more to tell and i'll save more of the oof shots.

thanks.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

GAO said:
Ahhh, this rebel/10d is confusing.

You said single shot Paul. I took that as oneshot, which on the 10d
that is AI servo/AI off, no predictive focusing at all. I think you
meant single frame as opposed to continuous frame. Since you are
using AI fousing that should take care of any shutter lag, unless
the AI it hasn't kicked into servo mode. That may be a possibility.
I use the servo mode on the 10D and get good results coming, going
or sideways.

Gene

Yep i meant continuous frame, where as you are refering to Ai servo, i can't manually select it unless in sports mode where it's allways using servo, but i will definately try it more tommorrow even if it means i have to try some sports mode shots.

thanks.

Hawkman · Mar 10, 2004

Say its 30 mph. In the lag period the bird will have travelled

3 feet on a 10D
5.4 feet on a 300D

If you are shooting at f8, and the bird is 30 to 50 feet away, your DOF is going to be about 1/2 foot. Not good:

10D the bird has travelled 6x past the DOF
300D it has travelled 11x past the DOF

With either camera, they won't be in focus. If you used predictive focusing, they may be.

Remember when trying this, to get the predicitve focusing to kick in, the following must happen:

1) In continuous frame mode
2) Servo mode must have kicked in

3) when you press the shutter to take the shots, keep it pressed and take a series, keeping the AF point on the bird. The first of the series will probably not be in focus, the rest should use predictive focusing.

Cheers & good luck,
Gene

Gene

PaulyOly said:
RATPhoto said:

There is of course some shutter lag. And unfortunately it is
significant for this scenario. Say the bird is doing 60 miles per
hour straight at you. That is 88 feet a second. If the shutter lag
is a quite snappy 1/10th of a second, that is still almost 9 feet.

--
If you are a new user chances are good your question is answered in
the FAQ at:
http://www.marius.org/eos300dfaq.php

For a gallery of my photographs, see:
http://www.pbase.com/ratphoto

See my profile for my equipment

Click to expand...

but the theory is sound, i think the bird might be doing 20 mph,
anyway i will try some of the suggestion in this thread tommorrow
assuming we have a sunny morning like we are supposed to, i will
try a lot of shots using AI servo be it in sports mode or me
tricking the camera, i also want to try stopping down more and
shooting at higher iso's to get good shutter speeds.

thanks Rat

Paul

--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

Ostoski · Mar 10, 2004

Paul,
Didn't get to read through this large thread.

I have been shooting in Sports mode lately as I am usually at an ISO of 400 trying to get a fast shutter speed anyway. This seems to be the only dependable way to use AI Servo on the 300D. I believe you and I will end up upgrading to the new/current 10D whenever that comes out since we both enjoy shooting birds in-flight. What we "really" need is a good seperate AI Servo mode that we can configure (which the 10D has). We have to actually work harder than if we were shooting with a 10D in AI Servo mode to get the shot. The Sports mode seems to work pretty well but I have found that the while balance is a little off.

To demonstrate the white balance, the first picture is shot in Av mode at ISO 400 1/3200s f/8.0

Here we are in Sports mode. 1/2000s f/7.1 at iso400

-------
Rod
http://www.pbase.com/rod_ostoski

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

David Barker said:
PaulyOly said:

Some of you are not reading my posts, i do not prefocus first then
press the shutter button, i press the shutter button!!! There is
no elapse time!

Click to expand...

--
DB

Do you mean i was snippy? I get frustrated trying to explain things over the internet, it's no ones fault, but my own.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

David Barker91965 · Mar 10, 2004

I mean snipping away some of the unnecessary text and pictures. I had to scroll down through about 100+ lines of redundant text to read two lines of message! That's all I meant by snipping. Occasionally it seems to be a problem worth mentioning, and this was one of those times

--
DB

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

GAO said:
3 feet on a 10D
5.4 feet on a 300D

If you are shooting at f8, and the bird is 30 to 50 feet away, your
DOF is going to be about 1/2 foot. Not good:

10D the bird has travelled 6x past the DOF
300D it has travelled 11x past the DOF

With either camera, they won't be in focus. If you used predictive
focusing, they may be.

Remember when trying this, to get the predicitve focusing to kick
in, the following must happen:

1) In continuous frame mode
2) Servo mode must have kicked in
3) when you press the shutter to take the shots, keep it pressed
and take a series, keeping the AF point on the bird. The first of
the series will probably not be in focus, the rest should use
predictive focusing.

Cheers & good luck,
Gene

Gene

PaulyOly said:

RATPhoto said:

There is of course some shutter lag. And unfortunately it is
significant for this scenario. Say the bird is doing 60 miles per
hour straight at you. That is 88 feet a second. If the shutter lag
is a quite snappy 1/10th of a second, that is still almost 9 feet.

--
If you are a new user chances are good your question is answered in
the FAQ at:
http://www.marius.org/eos300dfaq.php

For a gallery of my photographs, see:
http://www.pbase.com/ratphoto

See my profile for my equipment

Click to expand...

but the theory is sound, i think the bird might be doing 20 mph,
anyway i will try some of the suggestion in this thread tommorrow
assuming we have a sunny morning like we are supposed to, i will
try a lot of shots using AI servo be it in sports mode or me
tricking the camera, i also want to try stopping down more and
shooting at higher iso's to get good shutter speeds.

thanks Rat

Paul

--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

Click to expand...

--
Gene (the hawkman) - Walk softly and carry a big lens

Please visit my galleries at: http://www.pbase.com/gaocus/

I will try this tommorrow, i will hold the shutter to take more than one shot, i'm curious to see if the second shot is more oof anyway. Not all my pics of the bird coming at me were as oof as the others posted, here is a good one.

http://www.pbase.com/image/26806278

i will post a new message tommorrow with more pics.

thanks.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

Hey Rod were these shot at the same time? It looks more like your light is different than the actual white balance being off, i'd say the first is shot early in the morning and the second is shot late in the afternoon judging by the color. both look great though, the first is very well exposed, something i have trouble doing.

thanks.

PaulyOly · Mar 10, 2004

I blame icmp on that one since he didn't snip, i was in a hurry when i posted that message as i was leaving for work last night, i usually try to remember to remove the old post. It's more a problem for me when there are a lot of imbedded pictures and i only want to see the most recent, i usually open in a new window and hit the back button in those situations.

thanks for explaining.

DMahoney · Mar 10, 2004

PaulyOly said:
DMahoney said:

According to Imaging Resource's review of the 300D (see this page:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRA7.HTM ) the time for
shutter lag on full autofocus (which I take to mean just pushing
straight down on the button to take a shot, NOT pre-focusing) is
this:

"Shutter lag, full autofocus 0.250/0.278
AF speed will vary greatly depending on lens used. These numbers
are for EF-S 18-55mm. Quite fast. (Typical for an SLR, way faster
than even high-end point & shoot models.)"

There are timing tests for a lot more things as well, but from the
way I think you describe it, this is the time you are looking for.
Not just the time from focus lock, but also the time to focus as
well. How far a bird coming towards you would have moved in .250
seconds compared to the range of your DOF I have no clue, but this
is a measurement to look at anyways!
Of course, after focus, the shutter lag is only .142, so that's
probably the better value to look at. It also means it take 108ms
to achieve focus. Referenced only to THESE tests, of course. YMMV.

Don

Click to expand...

how long it takes to focus is not really relevant here, i'm talking
about the time it takes the camera to actually take the picture, so
say you prefocus on something and hold the shutter button to keep
the focus locked then start recording the time from there until the
picture is recorded, that is shutter lag, i realize it is less than
a second and hard to measure.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

Well, according to the site I put up the link for, then the shutter lag is 142ms. This is with their testing method of course, how accurate it is I don't know. I have seen others quote 120ms. Either way you look at it, it seems to be a little longer than a 10th of a second from the time focus is achieved and the picture is taken. Whether or not that knowledge helps out, you'll have to decide for yourself!

btw- is there any way of making this message reply window bigger? I feel kinda claustrophobic typing in it!

Don

DMahoney · Mar 10, 2004

PaulyOly said:
Does someone who knows how to use a dof
calculator know the actual dof at around 60 feet at f8 using a
400mm lens, i bet it's still in the inches.

According to the DOF Calculator I have on my Palm, you have a DOF of 2 feet. When focused at 60, you get from 59 to 61 feet as DOF. Assuming I got it right of course! So if your bird moves more than 1 foot during the "shutter lag" moment, it's flown itself out of your DOF. Not a lot of room to play with!

Don

Michael Louis · Mar 10, 2004

banzai said:
I feel your pain though. I took some shots at the LA Marathon on
Sunday with the runners coming towards camera. Almost all of them
were out of focus, even though I shuttered as fast as I could (AF
lock and shutter all in one motion).

Did you try bursting? I have found that in burst mode Al Servo kicks in automatically. It's a mistake to waite for Al Servo to start tracking before fireing. Thus, the first shot most likely will be OOF due to shutter lag or whatever, but a few of the subsequent shots will be in focus due to the 'predictive' algorithyms of Al Servo; and you'll love this camera all over again.

Michael

Michael Louis · Mar 10, 2004

of the super shallow DOF involved here.

PaulyOly said:
DMahoney said:

According to Imaging Resource's review of the 300D (see this page:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRA7.HTM ) the time for
shutter lag on full autofocus (which I take to mean just pushing
straight down on the button to take a shot, NOT pre-focusing) is
this:

"Shutter lag, full autofocus 0.250/0.278
AF speed will vary greatly depending on lens used. These numbers
are for EF-S 18-55mm. Quite fast. (Typical for an SLR, way faster
than even high-end point & shoot models.)"

There are timing tests for a lot more things as well, but from the
way I think you describe it, this is the time you are looking for.
Not just the time from focus lock, but also the time to focus as
well. How far a bird coming towards you would have moved in .250
seconds compared to the range of your DOF I have no clue, but this
is a measurement to look at anyways!
Of course, after focus, the shutter lag is only .142, so that's
probably the better value to look at. It also means it take 108ms
to achieve focus. Referenced only to THESE tests, of course. YMMV.

Don

Click to expand...

how long it takes to focus is not really relevant here, i'm talking
about the time it takes the camera to actually take the picture, so
say you prefocus on something and hold the shutter button to keep
the focus locked then start recording the time from there until the
picture is recorded, that is shutter lag, i realize it is less than
a second and hard to measure.
--
http://www.pbase.com/paulyoly/root

The Krakken · Mar 10, 2004

Have forgotten this already. Just 2 months ago, this was all anyone could talk about.

georgj said:
Somebody posted this a while ago and I tried it and it works :

"As most of you know you want to use the continous focus (AI servo)
for tracking moving things. It is only available in Sports mode,
with all it's limitations. Many of us force the cam into servo mode
in on of the creative modes, and I manage to do that most of the
time rather well. But it is a PIA keeping the shutter button half
pressed until that bird comes flying by. What I do is this: having
in mind that the remote control has two separate buttons, 1 for
focussing, 1 for triggering the shutter, and is connected to the
camera with a 2,5 stereo plug, I knew that the 'focussing button'
shorts the sleeve and the ring. I had an old 2,5 mono plug in my
drawer, this in practice connects ring and sleeve (as there is no
ring). Put it in the plug opening for the remote control on the
camera and voila, it is instantly focussing. Now do your own
servo-kick-in-trick (waving your hand in front of the camera,
zooming in/out, slowly move the camera or whatever). The camera
stays in servo mode until you turn it of or pull the plug out."

The average human reaction time is about 300ms. You can check yours
at http://www.gophergas.com/funstuff/reaction.htm
Regards,

Georg

--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon

Too much shutter lag with digital rebel............

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