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Are there other good cameras, YES.

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Honestly whats the difference? His other camera could be a canon 1d or a nikon 2dh... it dosnt change the validity/invalidity of the post. Yes on paper the Nikon looks better, thats a given. Will it perform better? That waits to be seen. Is it worth waiting for the camera to be released? Thats a personal decision. Is it worth the extra cost? Thats also a personal decesion. Will these extra features make you a better photographer? Of course not its the person behind the camera not the camera itself. Give an experienced photographer Airborne's a60 and he/she could likely take better phtographs than an individual who refuses to learn how to use the digital rebel or d70 in anything other than p&s mode. While I dont necessarilly agree with all of airbornes logic (I recently purchased the digital rebel myself) and do agree that his post seems protaganistic you have to give people the benifit of the doubt to a certain extent. If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5 days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of posting... by attacking him like this you are just increasing the liklihood that he will continue to do so in the future out of annoyance at the forum.

-Jordan
ToddAP said:
Direct quote from his other nickname:
"I have a 2 megapixel canon A60 that takes fine Portraits."
DigiAstro said:
Click on his profile to see what he usually posts about......almost
always D70 troll posts!

--
Don't ask me, I'm NOT an expert!
http://public.fotki.com/digiastro/
http://www.freewebs.com/jjacobson/
Click to expand...
--
Todd Putman
Click to expand...
--
-Jordan
 
Whats said has been said why not just drop it? Yes on paper the Nikon looks better, thats a given. Will it perform better? That waits to be seen. Is it worth waiting for the camera to be released? Thats a personal decision. Is it worth the extra cost? Thats also a personal decesion. Will these extra features make you a better photographer? Of course not its the person behind the camera not the camera itself. Give an experienced photographer Airborne's a60 and he/she could likely take better phtographs than an individual who refuses to learn how to use the digital rebel or d70 in anything other than p&s mode. While I dont necessarilly agree with all of airbornes logic (I recently purchased the digital rebel myself) and do agree that his post seems protaganistic you have to be willing to give people the benifit of the doubt. If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5 days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of posting... by attacking him like this you are just increasing the liklihood that he will continue to do so in the future out of annoyance at the forum. The same applies to other trolls if you dont respond with such ferocity they will not get the same satisfaction out of the arguments and would be less liekly to coninue in the future. Wouldnt it be better for this forum and others if people learned to accept that people will disagree with each other and leave it at that? By turning ones camera selection into a religious crusade you are simply annoying yourself and others while simultaneously filling the forum with childish rubbish. These forums are rapidly loosing their original intent, becoming a place to prostelitize ones own views rather than help one another become more competent photographers. Well thats my rant.

-Jordan
Airborne said:
I have a Canon Digital Camera and a 6 month old baby boy. You know
what that means. I have taken great pictures with my canon and I
love it. I will probably keep it until the sensor blows up or
something. I wanted to buy a new DSLR because I love taking
pictures. I want a DSLR with fast performance and good image
quality for around $1000. I have ordered a Nikon D70.

1. 1/500 sec flash sync
2. Immediate start up to shoot time
3. 3 shot bursts continuous for at least 17 shots and supposedly
144 shots using a sandisk 256MB ultraII.
4. Great shutter lag performance.
5. At least as good or better image quality than the D100 which
according to the reviews, was pretty good. I'm not printing giant
photos.
6. The price is right
7. The camera looks good. I'm not big money. For $1000, I want a
camera that looks good. I want to be happy with my $1000 dollar
purchase.

Canon should not engineer more downgrades into their next $1000
DSLR! The 1D MkII looks great but its not $1000 either. Nikon right
now has nothing to match it in my opinion. The D70 in its class,
seems to be for right now, ahead of the pack in terms of sheer
value and quality. I have a Canon. I have never owned a Nikon. I
have owned other digital cameras. I like what the D70 has to offer.
I am keeping my Canon and I have a D70 on order. Canon, Nikon,
Olympus, Sony and Fuji all make some nice cameras. Overall I think
Canon is on top, but I am not so narrow minded as to get caught up
in a name and miss a decent deal. My last name is not Canon.
Hence the D70.
Click to expand...
--
-Jordan
 
Jordan Robbins said:
If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5
days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others
and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of
posting...
Click to expand...
When you actually look at his posts, he bashes the Rebel in the Nikon forums (including some rather silly names for the 300D and the meaning of the letter "D"), and comes into the 300D forum and praises the D70.

He also makes it clear that he has no intention nor ever had any intention of buying a 300D.

Now you tell me, do you honestly think he was trying to help others?

I don't like to feed trolls, but I hate that this kind of stuff is going on, because it is the same juvenile crud that has ruined many of the usenet photo groups. His posts and thread are exactly like the threads that some supposed 300D owners started in the Sony forums, bashing the 828.

It could very well be that he works for Nikon, or is actually a 300D owner trying to make Nikon owners look bad, or that he is completly clueless. Only he knows. He also knows he is not contributing to the 300D forum. I'm sure he knows as well that several of us have reported this and other threads like it.

I don't like to report anybody, nor do I want heavily modded forums, however I also don't want to see very specific forums be turned into the mess that usenet has become.
--
Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
 
Honestly it dosnt matter. I rather give someone the benifit of the doubt before going about making assumptions. What one person percieves as being helpful can easilly be construed as protaganistic by others. This happens all the time in all parts of society from ones religion to politics to the schoolroom. After being bombarded with the recent number of d70 posts everyone here is obviously going to assume the worst for any new post regardless of the intent. This however was not the main intent of my post anyway. My point was that if we constantly argue with these people (regarldess of their intent) we are shooting ourselves in the foot. If they didnt mean to provoke us we are simply creating an enemy out of a well meaning person (yes it does happen... when I first started posting on dpreview a year ago I had this happen to me in one of the forums). If the did mean to make the post ill-natured they are likely seeking attention and you are simply reinforcing them to post more frequent attacks to get more responses. I agree 100% that these sort of posts are ruining these forums (not just this forums but the others as well) but constantly fighting with these posters get us nowhere. These forums are in part going downhill because we are being as bad as them in our responses. Half the reason these threads last so long is because we keep bringing them up to the top and give them more fodder to argue off of. This was simply a request to stop.

-Jordan
austex said:
Jordan Robbins said:
If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5
days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others
and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of
posting...
Click to expand...
When you actually look at his posts, he bashes the Rebel in the
Nikon forums (including some rather silly names for the 300D and
the meaning of the letter "D"), and comes into the 300D forum and
praises the D70.

He also makes it clear that he has no intention nor ever had any
intention of buying a 300D.

Now you tell me, do you honestly think he was trying to help others?

I don't like to feed trolls, but I hate that this kind of stuff is
going on, because it is the same juvenile crud that has ruined many
of the usenet photo groups. His posts and thread are exactly like
the threads that some supposed 300D owners started in the Sony
forums, bashing the 828.

It could very well be that he works for Nikon, or is actually a
300D owner trying to make Nikon owners look bad, or that he is
completly clueless. Only he knows. He also knows he is not
contributing to the 300D forum. I'm sure he knows as well that
several of us have reported this and other threads like it.

I don't like to report anybody, nor do I want heavily modded
forums, however I also don't want to see very specific forums be
turned into the mess that usenet has become.
--
Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Click to expand...
--
-Jordan
 
Jordan Robbins said:
Jordan Robbins said:
-Jordan
Jordan Robbins said:
Jordan Robbins said:
Jordan Robbins said:
Jordan Robbins said:
Yes you can argue to trying to make people aware of whats out there... but this should be done in the appropriate manufacturers forum.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Trolls can be objectionable, so can the Horse Blinder Enforcement
Officer. Think about what you are suggesting. Noone could try
things out, change is forbidden. Worship and praise your first
product purchase forever. Do not fold, spindle, or mutilate.
That's not good either.

Stan
Click to expand...
--
-Jordan
Click to expand...
--
-Jordan
Click to expand...
 
Jordan Robbins said:
I agree 100% that these sort of posts are ruining these forums (not just
this forums but the others as well) but constantly fighting with
these posters get us nowhere. These forums are in part going
downhill because we are being as bad as them in our responses.
Click to expand...
I shouldn't let myself be provoked and others shouldn't either, I guess I'm just worried that these types that have managed to ruin many other forums/sites, plus the usenet groups, are going to overwhelm these forums. I consider DPR the best in forums, and have learned so much from them, only to see good threads pushed down because somebody is excited over a completly different camera from a completly different manufacturer, and it irritates the heck out of me.

This same thing happened with the Sony forums, and it's only recently died down, however in the process, some longtime STF contributers got fed up and left, and I don't want to see it happen here (unfortunately it has already started).

I'll stop responding to the trolls, and just contribute and maybe bump actual 300D threads up above their threads. Not sure that anything else can be done other than to complain to Phil, and he's got enough things going on without being inundated by irate 300D owners.
 
austex said:
Jordan Robbins said:
If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5
days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others
and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of
posting...
Click to expand...
When you actually look at his posts, he bashes the Rebel in the
Nikon forums (including some rather silly names for the 300D and
the meaning of the letter "D"), and comes into the 300D forum and
praises the D70.

He also makes it clear that he has no intention nor ever had any
intention of buying a 300D.

Now you tell me, do you honestly think he was trying to help others?

I don't like to feed trolls, but I hate that this kind of stuff is
going on, because it is the same juvenile crud that has ruined many
of the usenet photo groups. His posts and thread are exactly like
the threads that some supposed 300D owners started in the Sony
forums, bashing the 828.

It could very well be that he works for Nikon, or is actually a
300D owner trying to make Nikon owners look bad, or that he is
completly clueless. Only he knows. He also knows he is not
contributing to the 300D forum. I'm sure he knows as well that
several of us have reported this and other threads like it.

I don't like to report anybody, nor do I want heavily modded
forums, however I also don't want to see very specific forums be
turned into the mess that usenet has become.
--
Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Click to expand...
 
antoni said:
austex said:
Jordan Robbins said:
If you look at his posting history hes only been posting on dpreview for 5
days. It is possible that he was honestly trying to help others
and didnt realize there was such a stigma about this sort of
posting...
Click to expand...
When you actually look at his posts, he bashes the Rebel in the
Nikon forums (including some rather silly names for the 300D and
the meaning of the letter "D"), and comes into the 300D forum and
praises the D70.

He also makes it clear that he has no intention nor ever had any
intention of buying a 300D.

Now you tell me, do you honestly think he was trying to help others?

I don't like to feed trolls, but I hate that this kind of stuff is
going on, because it is the same juvenile crud that has ruined many
of the usenet photo groups. His posts and thread are exactly like
the threads that some supposed 300D owners started in the Sony
forums, bashing the 828.

It could very well be that he works for Nikon, or is actually a
300D owner trying to make Nikon owners look bad, or that he is
completly clueless. Only he knows. He also knows he is not
contributing to the 300D forum. I'm sure he knows as well that
several of us have reported this and other threads like it.

I don't like to report anybody, nor do I want heavily modded
forums, however I also don't want to see very specific forums be
turned into the mess that usenet has become.
--
Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Member of the 'I own a Canon and a Sony' Army
 
Canon is clearly making good money on the 300D. The CMOS sensors are cheaper to manufacture than CCD's and Canon is making them itself. Nikon is buying its sensor (I think I saw that it was from Sony). So the cost to manufacture the sensor has to be low enough for both companies to make a profit. Even from the way Canon marketed the 300D, it was pretty clear to me that they wanted people to buy them and were not worried about giving up 10D sales. The D70 makes it clear that its possible to manufacture the DSLR sensors at costs that are much lower than many of us expected.
--
David Jacobson
 
..be a factor. Most Western companies need to have killer profit from day one of a product sale, even if that holds back sales. If you can forget about the short term today profit and concentrate on the long term money you may wind up in better shape after a few years due to market share, brand loyalty and the falling away of a few rivals.

Stan
 
I don't understand why you posted this on the 300D forum, you're talking about a Nikon camera.

I personally wouldn't order a camera when there's no final production shots around to judge, and when the production problems haven't had chances to be ironed out just yet (these factories QC will be better once they are used to making the D70). You say it's good quality etc etc; this, is nothing more than ink on a piece of paper till it's released.
Airborne said:
I have a Canon Digital Camera and a 6 month old baby boy. You know
what that means. I have taken great pictures with my canon and I
love it. I will probably keep it until the sensor blows up or
something. I wanted to buy a new DSLR because I love taking
pictures. I want a DSLR with fast performance and good image
quality for around $1000. I have ordered a Nikon D70.

1. 1/500 sec flash sync
2. Immediate start up to shoot time
3. 3 shot bursts continuous for at least 17 shots and supposedly
144 shots using a sandisk 256MB ultraII.
4. Great shutter lag performance.
5. At least as good or better image quality than the D100 which
according to the reviews, was pretty good. I'm not printing giant
photos.
6. The price is right
7. The camera looks good. I'm not big money. For $1000, I want a
camera that looks good. I want to be happy with my $1000 dollar
purchase.

Canon should not engineer more downgrades into their next $1000
DSLR! The 1D MkII looks great but its not $1000 either. Nikon right
now has nothing to match it in my opinion. The D70 in its class,
seems to be for right now, ahead of the pack in terms of sheer
value and quality. I have a Canon. I have never owned a Nikon. I
have owned other digital cameras. I like what the D70 has to offer.
I am keeping my Canon and I have a D70 on order. Canon, Nikon,
Olympus, Sony and Fuji all make some nice cameras. Overall I think
Canon is on top, but I am not so narrow minded as to get caught up
in a name and miss a decent deal. My last name is not Canon.
Hence the D70.
Click to expand...
--
http://shuurajou.deviantart.com/gallery/photography/
 
Airborne said:
pictures. I want a DSLR with fast performance and good image
quality for around $1000. I have ordered a Nikon D70.

Canon is on top, but I am not so narrow minded as to get caught up
in a name and miss a decent deal. My last name is not Canon.
Hence the D70.
Click to expand...
I would do it too if I could exchange my collection of canon lenses for nikon equivalents ;-) seriously, if d70 specs will be as good in reality as they are on paper now - this camera is #1 choice in near-$1000 dslr market.

I recently shot snowboard jumpers with the DR and the ONLY practical way to track focus was to put the camera in "sports" mode ==> iso400==> noise in shadow areas and too narrow dynamic range comparing to iso100. next year I hope to get better resunts with d70.
Taras
 
I also have a 6 month old son and love to take his pictures.

I currently own a 707 and it makes me sick when shooting indoors because of its high noise and slow focus.

I have two Canon lenses from my old EOS 50E, and now planning to buy a 300D. However, the discussion about this new D70 makes me think twice about my purchase decision.

I read Phil's 300D review several times. D100 looks significantly more noisier than 300D at every ISO. Will the lesser price D70 really be better than D100 in term of image quality? Then, who's gonna buy D100?

I'm an amateur photographer. Eventhough everything written about D70 are true, what can I potentially do with D70 that I can't do with 300D?

Susam
 
Phil found that the D100 had significantly less noise than the Rebel at every single ISO except ISO 100 where the Rebel barely edged it out. (D100 doesn't go down to ISO 100, and Drebel doesn't go over ISO 1600)

I think the noise tests are kind of shakey as there are no standards, in-camera settings can affect matters and side effects like resolution loss (10% by ISO 400 for Canon) are ignored.

The tests also are very strong on the subjective appearance of the noise - some types are uglier than others.

Stan
 
Stan said:
Phil found that the D100 had significantly less noise than the
Rebel at every single ISO except ISO 100 where the Rebel barely
edged it out. (D100 doesn't go down to ISO 100, and Drebel doesn't
go over ISO 1600)

I think the noise tests are kind of shakey as there are no
standards, in-camera settings can affect matters and side effects
like resolution loss (10% by ISO 400 for Canon) are ignored.

The tests also are very strong on the subjective appearance of the
noise - some types are uglier than others.

Stan
Click to expand...
Not sure where you found this info??

The Canon D60 had lower noise than the D100 all the way up to ISO400, then have in mind D100 starts at ISO200

And dont come and tell me that you should always compare same iso settings.. the content of it all is how low noise can the camera deliver!
 
Airborne said:
DWBell said:
Each to their own indeed, you do realise that you've gone and
bought a 300D for $1000, and now you're buying a D70for $1000,
you'll keep the 300D 'til the sensor blows up right. Er....ok,
that's $2000 not including lenses? You do have an idea what you
could have bought for > $2000 don't you? Something aint right with
your approach imo!

;-)
--
Kind Regards
DWBell
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
...you refer mostly shows a difference in the in-camera settings, which are adjustable. The images look different but digital camera noise is not the reason for this observation. Also, if one notes Phil's comment about artifacts, it might prompt one to realize that sharpening is best done in the 'puter if the best, most controllable results are desired.

Here's an example from Canon showing the difference between parameter 1 and parameter 2 on the Rebel. Pretty noticeable difference!!



Stan
 
Stan said:
Stan said:
Stan said:
Stan said:
The tests also are NOT very strong on the subjective appearance of the noise - some types are uglier than others.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
From Drebel / 300D test on this site:





Stan
Click to expand...
Ahh okay thanks.. didnt find it.. guess i was looking in the wrong corner..

The noise are almost in level between them (if you compare the same ISO)
But the noise looks a bit different between them = Canon a bit more softy.

So in the end its as you say a matter of what you prefer.

Now out and take pictures instead.. its almost weekend.. Here the sky is blue/red/green/yellow/purple.. guess i can make a test shot using it today :o)

I live north of the arctic circle.. and yes its possible.. and noph we dont have ice bears.. nor do we live in igloos.. hmmm to bad about the bears.. could be a good object.
 
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