HELP - COMPLETELY lost on the A1 noise issue

sbasaman · Jan 20, 2004

I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel 2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10 every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really care if I see it on my monitor.

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

engbert · Jan 20, 2004

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

Why not try printing some of your shots?

sbasaman said:
2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

--
http://www.pbase.com/bertramm
pbase & dpreview supporter
Dimage A1, Epsom 3200 scanner, HP 2500 printer

Jim Rickards · Jan 20, 2004

engbert said:
sbasaman said:

I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

Click to expand...

Why not try printing some of your shots?

Member said:

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/bertramm
pbase & dpreview supporter
Dimage A1, Epsom 3200 scanner, HP 2500 printer

--There isn't much noise to avoid.

First, expose properly, underexposure will show some noise.

Next, print one of your pictures. If you don't have what it takes to print at home, just have it done at a shop. Then you will know. If you see noise, post your pictures here for help. Or post them anyway, whether you print or not.

Jim Rickards

Photo critiques are always welcome.

Nukester · Jan 20, 2004

When I take pictures, I think about archival quality. I want as little noise as possible and the image as untouched as possible after downloading from the camera. I am REALLY thinking about the A1 and then I read about noise issues. SIGH SIGH SIGH... I think my brain is getting noisey.

Jim Rickards said:
engbert said:

sbasaman said:

I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

Click to expand...

Why not try printing some of your shots?

Jim Rickards said:

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/bertramm
pbase & dpreview supporter
Dimage A1, Epsom 3200 scanner, HP 2500 printer

Click to expand...

--There isn't much noise to avoid.

First, expose properly, underexposure will show some noise.

Next, print one of your pictures. If you don't have what it takes
to print at home, just have it done at a shop. Then you will know.
If you see noise, post your pictures here for help. Or post them
anyway, whether you print or not.

Jim Rickards

Photo critiques are always welcome.

howard1 · Jan 20, 2004

I think the noise is arguably about the same with most 5 MP digicams that are not DSLRs. It's due to cramming such small pixels into a small sensor chip. I would try to avoid the obsession with "lens cap tests" and A1 vs. Fuji vs. Canon vs. Sony and the like (although I did that myself for a couple weeks).

Here is what I found:

-noise level is sensitive to underexposure, and I think the A1 tends to underexpose a bit. My shots are looking better when I use exposure compensation of about +0.5 in many situations. You can easily set this by pushing the + - button, then dialing up +0.5 with the thumbwheel. It will stay there until you change it again. It may not work in full auto mode, but it does work in P mode which is almost as carefree as full auto.

-With good exposure, I'm only noticing noise in smooth walls or blue skies. For these, noise reduction programs do work well. I bought Noise Ninja last week for $30. It's very easy to use. You are provided with a noise profile file for the A1 for each ISO speed. Load the appropriate profile. Then just open the original, unaltered image straight from the camera, have the program do its thing (takes about 20s on my 1.6 GHz PC), and save the filtered version as a .jpg or .tif. You can run Photoshop or whatever on the filtered version. They are working on a Mac version. Competing product Neat Image gets good reviews too, but slightly more complicated to use, so I hear.

I've got samples of before and after at

http://www.pbase.com/hsandler/a1

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

Joel Dabrowski · Jan 20, 2004

Well, I would say that if you can, try a print on your home computer and see how it looks. It' only going to look better if you order prints from iPhoto or develop them outside. If you're not happy, and you can get a full refund or exchange, then go ahead. Trust your eyes and your judgment.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert at this stuff, just a hobbyist, and I haven't followed this issue too closely.

The noise issue is somewhat overblown IMO. What I remember was that people were noticing hot pixels in long-exposure shots as one noise issue. That does require post-processing, and it is easy to resolve, especially in something like Photoshop or PS Elements.

Another noise issue was that it doesn't do much to mask or unsharpen the image like a lot of point and shoot cameras. Minolta basically was very conservative with its internal image processing, and the pictures reveal the limits of the sensor and tries to preserve as much detail as possible (which aggressive smoothing would temd to eliminate). To me, the noise in the A1 images is about as good as you're going to get from that size and make of sensor. A lot of other comparable cameras do more internal processing on the images, smoothing them more and saturating them more. The A1 definitely tries to act like an SLR and it doesn't do a whole lot for point-and-shoot pictures by itself. (One thing I do when switching to Auto mode is I bring up the contrast and color saturation a bit, but that's not saying anything about image noise). Slightly smaller image sizes tend to interpolate the pixels and reduce the apparent noise, but then you're obviously talking about smaller images (though a 3MP image should be fine at 8x10 size). At ISO 100 and for prints up to about 8x10 (maybe larger, but I've not seen larger myself), it's not a problem to me.

Auto mode on the A1 will produce more noise; it tweaks the ISO setting to somewhere between 100 and 200 as needed. Keep the f stop near 5.6 to help in this regard to some degree. I have found some flash and low light pictures have more noise, especially at a low f stop value. Bright and dark areas don't have a problem in those pics, so I try to get better contrast in the pictures. These are usually low contrast images that are a little underexposed. My success at removing this noise is kind of hit and miss. I haven't made any larger prints of these, so I'm not sure how they look at something like 8x10. It's east to clean up on my computer, but I'm looking to avoid this too.

A separate issue that's often confused with the noise issue is the resolution issue in Phil Askey's review here. While Minolta was conservative with image processing in most ways, apparently whatever they did to process jpegs slightly reduces fine detail in some cases. I've yet to see the impact of this on my pictures.

As for software, I used to recommend PixelNhance by Caffeine Software, http://www.caffeinesoft.com . The guys who ran that place are now working at Apple, but they still have a disk image download of all their apps. PixelNhance is great, but an orphaned product. you could also check out Graphic Converter from Lemke software, Portraits & Prints from Econ Technology is another possible helper. Try searching eithermacupdate.com or versiontracker.com for others.

Hope this helps. Remember, you need to enjoy your camera!

Joel

Joel Dabrowski · Jan 20, 2004

The A1 does very little to the image, except for the slight reduction in resolution when writing jpeg format, as mentioned in Phil's review. It's very SLR-like in its image quality, except it has a smaller sensor than a dSLR.

Nukester said:
When I take pictures, I think about archival quality. I want as
little noise as possible and the image as untouched as possible
after downloading from the camera. I am REALLY thinking about the
A1 and then I read about noise issues. SIGH SIGH SIGH... I think
my brain is getting noisey.

iceman17 · Jan 20, 2004

Ive been using ..neat image ..for my oly 4000z and it works great,its free and I think it works for the mac as well. regards Mike

Joel Dabrowski said:
Well, I would say that if you can, try a print on your home
computer and see how it looks. It' only going to look better if
you order prints from iPhoto or develop them outside. If you're
not happy, and you can get a full refund or exchange, then go
ahead. Trust your eyes and your judgment.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert at this stuff, just a hobbyist, and I
haven't followed this issue too closely.

The noise issue is somewhat overblown IMO. What I remember was
that people were noticing hot pixels in long-exposure shots as one
noise issue. That does require post-processing, and it is easy to
resolve, especially in something like Photoshop or PS Elements.

Another noise issue was that it doesn't do much to mask or
unsharpen the image like a lot of point and shoot cameras. Minolta
basically was very conservative with its internal image processing,
and the pictures reveal the limits of the sensor and tries to
preserve as much detail as possible (which aggressive smoothing
would temd to eliminate). To me, the noise in the A1 images is
about as good as you're going to get from that size and make of
sensor. A lot of other comparable cameras do more internal
processing on the images, smoothing them more and saturating them
more. The A1 definitely tries to act like an SLR and it doesn't do
a whole lot for point-and-shoot pictures by itself. (One thing I
do when switching to Auto mode is I bring up the contrast and color
saturation a bit, but that's not saying anything about image
noise). Slightly smaller image sizes tend to interpolate the
pixels and reduce the apparent noise, but then you're obviously
talking about smaller images (though a 3MP image should be fine at
8x10 size). At ISO 100 and for prints up to about 8x10 (maybe
larger, but I've not seen larger myself), it's not a problem to me.

Auto mode on the A1 will produce more noise; it tweaks the ISO
setting to somewhere between 100 and 200 as needed. Keep the f
stop near 5.6 to help in this regard to some degree. I have found
some flash and low light pictures have more noise, especially at a
low f stop value. Bright and dark areas don't have a problem in
those pics, so I try to get better contrast in the pictures. These
are usually low contrast images that are a little underexposed. My
success at removing this noise is kind of hit and miss. I haven't
made any larger prints of these, so I'm not sure how they look at
something like 8x10. It's east to clean up on my computer, but I'm
looking to avoid this too.

A separate issue that's often confused with the noise issue is the
resolution issue in Phil Askey's review here. While Minolta was
conservative with image processing in most ways, apparently
whatever they did to process jpegs slightly reduces fine detail in
some cases. I've yet to see the impact of this on my pictures.

As for software, I used to recommend PixelNhance by Caffeine
Software, http://www.caffeinesoft.com . The guys who ran that place are
now working at Apple, but they still have a disk image download of
all their apps. PixelNhance is great, but an orphaned product.
you could also check out Graphic Converter from Lemke software,
Portraits & Prints from Econ Technology is another possible helper.
Try searching eithermacupdate.com or versiontracker.com for others.

Hope this helps. Remember, you need to enjoy your camera!

Joel

Rockcrawler · Jan 20, 2004

I tried a A1 myself after trading my G5 i almost dropped dead after the difference in picture quality,Not to be mean but i'm going to Nikon 5700
Hope that will fix the issue?

OzRay · Jan 20, 2004

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

What has been suggested so far is pretty much on the mark regarding how the A1 works - it has been geared towards the serious amateur/semi-professional. Personally, I would never shoot full auto as I've found the results generally to be rather poor. You also mentioned that you want to 'really learn photography', so you should try and bite the bullet and begin to use either aperture or shutter mode (set to ISO100 or ISO200) so that you develop a photographers mindset from the begining. It really isn't all that difficult, as the camera will tell you if you are way off the mark in most situations. If you are just taking 'snapshots' of family, I'd be accepting of the results in these circumstances. Giving an example shot of your problem would also assist.
--
There are no limitations, only challenges - me (unless someone said it first)

Nukester · Jan 20, 2004

Good to know the A1 doesn't over process the images. Thanks for the information! I am picking one up on Wednesday and putting it through its paces.

Joel Dabrowski said:
Nukester said:

When I take pictures, I think about archival quality. I want as
little noise as possible and the image as untouched as possible
after downloading from the camera. I am REALLY thinking about the
A1 and then I read about noise issues. SIGH SIGH SIGH... I think
my brain is getting noisey.

Click to expand...

mcaswell · Jan 20, 2004

sbasaman said:
1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

I recently had some images printed at Walgreens as a test, and just for the heck of it, included a couple of pretty bad shots in terms of noise... one was a late evening (almost night) photo of our sailboat taken handheld 1/3sec. 400iso, while the other was an 800iso inside shot of a room. Both were quite noisy on-screen at 100%, but at 4x6 size, it was not objectionable at all (even though I didn't run a noise reduction filter on them).

sbasaman said:
3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)?

I'm on OS X too, and tried most (if not all) of the noise reduction products available... to me, the one that absolutely positively won hands-down was Digital Gem. $79 http://www.asf.com .

--Mike

Adam-T · Jan 21, 2004

None of them are perfect, i'd not touch a 5700 with a barge pole, the AF stinks, the lens is slow and it's an awkward camera to operate, it also has a red channel noise problem, not exactly sterling battery life and blows highlights.. The G5 has the most DSLR like images (Hard to tell ISO50 G5 shots from a 10D @ ISO200/400) so I went that route but it hasn't got the handling, features, IS, lens quality or range of the A1.. If you don't like the A1 or G5, I'd look at the Sony 717 before the 5700!.

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

Nonns · Jan 21, 2004

I'm a newbie both to photgraphy and to the A1. My feeling is that it isn't fair to try and persuade people that something is alright. We have no way of actually knowing what you what level of noise is alright for you.

I have seen noise in my shots on the A1 on the computer screen. I can honestly say that when printing I haven't actually noticed it (bear in mind that I have only printed at A4 size on 2 occasions). otherwise at 5*7 I haven't noticed it at all except in the case of a horribly underexposed shot which I decided to fix (and oh boy did I fix it ;-> ).

For me the noise issue is a non starter. I am sufficently untalented that the first thing people say when they look at my pictures is

"what cretin took that? The compositions/exposure is awful" what a dull shot.

I have never yet heard the line

"what are are all the speckles in the shot?"

That said If you are genuinely not happy with the noise from the A1 try another camera (I don't mean this in an insulting way). There is absolutely no point in having a gadget of any sort which you are not happy with because it will just end up gathering dust and it will always niggle at you. We are alll different and we all have our own tolerances and likes and dislikes for things. The main point we on these groups share is that we all have a liking for photography and its tools. I would defintiely second the person who said try printing shots on paper to the size you want to print to. If you are happy with the print then perhaps it will set your mind at rest. My feeling is that all current digital cameras (compacts/prosumer and dslr's) are a long way from perfection (just hang around in each of the manufacturer forums to see what I mean). In each case you will have to comrpomise somewhere. Its just a question of the where. once you know what you can live with then you know which manufacturer and camera you should buy.

Daniel (NL) · Jan 21, 2004

Can't you just set it at 100 iso (fixed) and all else automatic? That should eliminate a lot of it? And in most cases should be sufficient. And it's true that even terrible noise doesn't look that bad when printed on a photo... Good luck
--
Daniel

Paul L UK · Jan 21, 2004

Only just got my A1, so no experience of noise at the moment, but have got Neat Image trial version to test - http://www.neatimage.com/

Anybody got experience of it ?

Paul

Tony SD · Jan 21, 2004

Paul L UK said:
Only just got my A1, so no experience of noise at the moment, but
have got Neat Image trial version to test -
http://www.neatimage.com/

Anybody got experience of it ?

Paul

You'll get dozens of replies to this one!

Yes, I use it regularly. Geir Ove has posted some useful profiles on the NeatImage site.

Re A1 noise:

I think people differ in their reaction to this, some are not really bothered by it, particularly if they are only going to print 6 X 4, others, like myself want a prosumer camera that can regularly print to 10 X 8 or even higher from a crop, and really are concerned by the noise that can muddy the image. NeatImage does an excellent job in removing the 'mud', and now I shoot in RAW, and use NI to clean up the image. I still feel that my G3 has a slight edge, but it's very slight and the feature set and handleability of the A1 make it my favourite.

Another point is that there seems to be quite a lot of variability between different cameras - see Ben Herrman's posts.

Just wish they'd given us ISO 50!
--
TonySD

FW Scharpf · Jan 21, 2004

I had my A1 since last October. I use it with Aperture priority at f 5.6 most of the time, ISO 100 and (usually) RAW converted to TIFF. No grain rediucing program.

With well exposed images, detail is excellent and noise is practically invisible in prints (Epson 2100/2200) up to A3 (11 x 14). In underexposed images it is visible, but the effect is like that of well defined film grain (Agfa Rodinal) which I find not objectionable at all.

Fritz

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

John down under · Jan 21, 2004

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

sbasaman,

Welcome to dpreview and the MTF. The A1 is a great choice.

Even for snapshots, I don't see much value in even having an AUTO mode on the A1. P mode gives you auto exposure (aperture and shutter), but still allows you to set some things that AUTO does not, eg you can keep ISO set to 100, so P is much more useful and still good for P&S situations.

Alternatively, as others have suggested, you could even choose A mode and leave the aperture setting on say f5.6 for many situations unless you want a different DOF result. Within the limits of the resulting DOF, that is apparently the A1's sweet spot for sharp pics.

In addition to other suggestions for keeping noise down, be aware that polarisers also cause more noise, at least in my experience. However, the accentuated noise is not too horrendous and the advantages of a polariser for certain situations are worthwhile. They can make outdoor shots more dynamic and vivid. By the way, linear polarisers are cheaper and polarise more effectively than circular polarisers for non-SLRs like the A1, contrary to what virtually all salespeople will tell you. I have a 62mm linear polariser on a 49-62mm stepping ring to avoid vignetting and love the results outdoors, especially when there is blue sky in the picture. Blues become deeper and clouds take on a new dimension. With the polariser on, I am sometimes disappointed when the frame is clear of clouds, regardless of the minor noise issue.

Cheers from down under, John

Chris G B · Jan 21, 2004

Hi sbasaman

sbasaman said:
I just purchased a Minolta A1 yesterday to replace a Canon Rebel
2000 35mm and a Canon PowerShot S100 Digital Elph. So far, I LOVE
the A1, but I am a little disappointed with the noise thing...so
much so that I am thinking of taking it back! I know this has been
discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so I apologize for taking even
more time, but I'm lost (I'm very much a newbie and basically
bought the A1 to really learn photography). Just a couple of
questions about this whole noise thing;

1. I can definitely see the noise on my computer screen, but how
evident will it be on prints (typically 4x6, but maybe an 8x10
every now and then). If it won't show up in prints, I don't really
care if I see it on my monitor.

I print up to A3 from the A1. On rare occasions, the noise shows itself in skies as a fine grain, much like film. For samller prints I would not give it a second thought.

sbasaman said:
2. I know that there are ways to avoid the noise issue (i.e. avoid
the higher ISO's) but what exactly should I avoid? Also, does this
mean I can never put it on full auto? That may be a deal-breaker
on this camera (I basically want to be able to throw it on full
auto when I am just shooting snapshots of family and friends and
tweak the settings more when I want to make "art"...if I may be so
pretentious).

Avoid underexposure. Also, more sharpening in camera = more noise. Try shooting in soft and sharpening in application. it works for me.

sbasaman said:
3. I know a lot of people have said that the noise issue can be
fixed with post-processing. I know Photoshop pretty well, but is
there an easier way to clean up the noise (i.e. a shareware or
cheap program available for Mac OSX)? Also, how much processing
have people found they need to do on most pictures if they take
steps to avoid noise in the field.

NEat Image does a good job of cleaning up image noise, but also introduces problems of it's own. I have found odd aliasing patterns over choppy water in pictures and also a loss of textural information. If the print is not going to show noise, dont process the image unnecesarily (if it ain't broke dont fix it).

sbasaman said:
Once again, I know a lot of these issues have been discussed, but
some of the answers have gotten pretty technical and threw me for a
loop, so thanks again for your patience with the repetition.

When you open an image on screen, the first thing you usually see is sky displayed at 72dpi (the so calles 100% crop). Some folks here have had near death experiences as a result of seeing this, but viewing full frame photos on even the finest resolution screen (I use a 22" 2048 x 1536 monitor) you wont see it. Printing up to A3 it is not an issue.

Higher ISO will make it worse, but I have found 200 to be OK and 400 useable for A4 prints. At 800 it is getting a bit much, but then many prosumer cameras wont give you ISO800 in the first place.

Instead of auto mode, set up a user program at ISO100 / TTL prefalsh control, live histogram and program mode exposure control. Save this to one of the 5 MR function memories and recall it whenever you want. This should cover 95% of your photography, and you are only a couple of button presses away from any amount of customising that you need on the day.

Hope this helps to get things in perspective, enjoy the A1

Chris

HELP - COMPLETELY lost on the A1 noise issue

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