new fuji camera

It's 100% more pixels in 125% more space, not 50%. Equal pixel
size would yield 13.5 MP in FF.
Of course this is correct, I hope that the Fuji engineers are better at maths, otherwise they make a FF with smaller pixels and 12MP and there will be small spaces between the pixels :-) They will need compicated algorithms then to guess what was in between the pixels. This will be Bayer Pattern II...
 
Agree. FF and 12Mp = smaller pixels = more noise - not that Fuji
wouldn´t be capable of making it with even less noise than S2, it
would only make it harder...
How do you get that? 36x24 is about 2.4 times 23x15.5, hence pixels of a FF sensor are larger, not smaller.

Or am I missing something?

Robert
for my taste, I'd like FF, period.
but don't forget, a 1.5 to 1.3x is still 50% more area,...
cheers, Robert
Agree. FF and 12Mp = smaller pixels = more noise - not that Fuji
wouldn´t be capable of making it with even less noise than S2, it
would only make it harder...
Although I also woulfd like it full frame, a 1.3x crop 12mp super
CCD SR chip would be very, very nice ...

Regards,

--
Paulo Abreu,

'Buy a FujiFilm S2 Pro TODAY because ONE DAY you will be dead !'
http://www.mcscenter.net/~psergio/index.php
 
I think you're being a little too pedantic, Igor. First, the numbers you use are the Fuji specifications for sensor size but the active sensor area is smaller than that. Second, you assume that a FF sensor has an active area of 36x24. That is also arbitrary and the 1Ds is less than that. If you are going to make such bold claims of accuracy to 5 decimal places you might want to try harder to be correct yourself.

My claim of 125% is simply from the square of the generally accepted crop factor of 1.5. It's well known that the actual crop is a little greater than that but 1.5 was the number James was using. My number was not incorrect, it was just of limited accuracy. I didn't resort to childish insults either.
Surface Area (SA) of the rectangle is (a x b).... therefore

SA of 23mm x 15.5mm sensor is 356.5mm square (APS)
SA of 36mm x 24mm sensor is 864mm square (FF)

to find out how much bigger (in %) the area of FF sensor is in
comparison to APS sized sensor we assume the APS size sensor to be
100%. So the difference between the % of the FF sensor (in APS
units) and APS size sensor is the additional surface area.

% of FF sensor = (864 x 100) 356.5
Which gives us 245.69%.


So this result shows us that we can fit a suface area of 2.5 APS
sized sensors in the suface ares of a FF sensor.

The difference in % between the two sensors is: 245.69-100=145.69%

so both of you are wrong; the actual differense in surface area
between FF sensor and APS sized sensor if 145.69%

Igor
increase 50% = x 1.5 (that looks like our crop factor)
increase 125% = x 2.25

Increase the S2 sensor by 50% = 34.5mm x 23.25mm
Increase the S2 sensor by 125% = 51.75mm x 34.875mm

We can prove it another way....

Take 50% of each side of the S2 sensor then add to side...

50% of 23mm = 11.5mm + 23mm = 34.5mm
50% of 15.5mm = 7.75mm + 15.5mm = 23.25mm

Take 125% of each side of the S2 sensor then add that to each side...

125% of 23mm = 28.75mm + 23mm = 51.75mm
125% of 15.5mm = 19.375mm + 15.5mm = 34.875mm

50% is much closer to full frame than 125%.

So to clearify: it is 100% more pixels in 50% of the space. That
is of course going on the previous stated rumor of 12mp at full
frame.

-James
Bernie,

Remember that the S2 has 6 million sensors natively. So to get 12
million sensors in a FF chip, they would have to fit 6 million more
sensors in 50% (difference between FF and current sensor) of the
space. Something has got to give and it usually means the pixels
will get smaller.

-James
 
This is what you guys are saying:

blah blah blah blah blah, and blah.

To this point, it's all based on speculation, and therefore moot. I'll stick to taking pictures and let Fuji make the camera. I loved my S1, and I love my S2. If the next camera from Fuji produces better results, I will probably eventually buy one.

Bentley
--
http://www.bentleygray.net
 
bentleyg,

I live in Southern New England. Yesterday was -3 degrees F with a windchill of -30 degrees F. I would love to take pictures but after about 1 minutes of being outside, my nose and trigger finger start to experience frostbite.

Some of use don't have the luxury of living in Alabama this time of year with your balmy temperatures of what, 50 degrees F?

I need something to pass my time. Maybe I will go take some pictures of my cats and dogs and post in here in the forum for everyone to see. :^)

We will see what Fuji has in store for us in less than 27 days, 18 hours, 31 minutes, and 11 seconds.

-James
This is what you guys are saying:

blah blah blah blah blah, and blah.

To this point, it's all based on speculation, and therefore moot.
I'll stick to taking pictures and let Fuji make the camera. I
loved my S1, and I love my S2. If the next camera from Fuji
produces better results, I will probably eventually buy one.

Bentley
--
http://www.bentleygray.net
 
Agree. FF and 12Mp = smaller pixels = more noise - not that Fuji
wouldn´t be capable of making it with even less noise than S2, it
would only make it harder...
How do you get that? 36x24 is about 2.4 times 23x15.5, hence pixels
of a FF sensor are larger, not smaller.

Or am I missing something?

Robert
for my taste, I'd like FF, period.
but don't forget, a 1.5 to 1.3x is still 50% more area,...
cheers, Robert
Agree. FF and 12Mp = smaller pixels = more noise - not that Fuji
wouldn´t be capable of making it with even less noise than S2, it
would only make it harder...
Although I also woulfd like it full frame, a 1.3x crop 12mp super
CCD SR chip would be very, very nice ...

Regards,

--
Paulo Abreu,

'Buy a FujiFilm S2 Pro TODAY because ONE DAY you will be dead !'
http://www.mcscenter.net/~psergio/index.php
--
Paulo Abreu,

'Buy a FujiFilm S2 Pro TODAY because ONE DAY you will be dead !'
http://www.mcscenter.net/~psergio/index.php
 
There is some thing interesting about Math: there is no way to find diferent results to the same problem.

Unfortunately your numbers are inforect. An area 36mm large and 24mm wide is 245,69% larger tham other 23mm large and 15,5mm wide.

Sorry about Igor and sorry about myself.
My claim of 125% is simply from the square of the generally
accepted crop factor of 1.5. It's well known that the actual crop
is a little greater than that but 1.5 was the number James was
using. My number was not incorrect, it was just of limited
accuracy. I didn't resort to childish insults either.
Surface Area (SA) of the rectangle is (a x b).... therefore

SA of 23mm x 15.5mm sensor is 356.5mm square (APS)
SA of 36mm x 24mm sensor is 864mm square (FF)

to find out how much bigger (in %) the area of FF sensor is in
comparison to APS sized sensor we assume the APS size sensor to be
100%. So the difference between the % of the FF sensor (in APS
units) and APS size sensor is the additional surface area.

% of FF sensor = (864 x 100) 356.5
Which gives us 245.69%.


So this result shows us that we can fit a suface area of 2.5 APS
sized sensors in the suface ares of a FF sensor.

The difference in % between the two sensors is: 245.69-100=145.69%

so both of you are wrong; the actual differense in surface area
between FF sensor and APS sized sensor if 145.69%

Igor
increase 50% = x 1.5 (that looks like our crop factor)
increase 125% = x 2.25

Increase the S2 sensor by 50% = 34.5mm x 23.25mm
Increase the S2 sensor by 125% = 51.75mm x 34.875mm

We can prove it another way....

Take 50% of each side of the S2 sensor then add to side...

50% of 23mm = 11.5mm + 23mm = 34.5mm
50% of 15.5mm = 7.75mm + 15.5mm = 23.25mm

Take 125% of each side of the S2 sensor then add that to each side...

125% of 23mm = 28.75mm + 23mm = 51.75mm
125% of 15.5mm = 19.375mm + 15.5mm = 34.875mm

50% is much closer to full frame than 125%.

So to clearify: it is 100% more pixels in 50% of the space. That
is of course going on the previous stated rumor of 12mp at full
frame.

-James
Bernie,

Remember that the S2 has 6 million sensors natively. So to get 12
million sensors in a FF chip, they would have to fit 6 million more
sensors in 50% (difference between FF and current sensor) of the
space. Something has got to give and it usually means the pixels
will get smaller.

-James
--
Amilcar
 
I admit my understanding of Fuji's high dynamic range design is limited, but if it involves two sensors at each pixel site, then this sharing will reduce their size. Depending on how the signals are combined, that may mean more noise.

In particular, if the output is effectively one or the other, then you're operating with half-sized pixels. Further. it would appear that an (approximately) either-or approach would be necessary to achieve the desired result.
Make sense?

Robert
 
LOL James,

It's in the low 40's today, not quite balmy by my standards, but much warmer than where you are.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to sound like a smarta$$, but the same discussions come up everytime someone even hints at a new SLR being released by Fuji. As I said, until it's actually released, all discussion is pure speculation.

I'm just as guilty. I look forward to the next release, but I'm not going to join in the discussion as to what it might be or how many pixels it will have. I just don't care. If it fits my needs, I'll get it. Otherwise I won't. The back and forth banter over the math I just don't get. I guess that was my main point.

Go Pats!?!?
Bentley
--
http://www.bentleygray.net
 
I admit my understanding of Fuji's high dynamic range design is
limited, but if it involves two sensors at each pixel site, then
this sharing will reduce their size.
Fuji says -about the small SR sensor from the F700- that the old 3th generation design had enough space left to include the second, smaller photodiode, without the need to make the main photodiode smaller.

So you keep the big old one and get an extra smaller one at the same photosite. This second photodiode is a lot smaller.

When I look at the Fuji F700 with the SR sensor, of the same size as the S602's sensor it seems to be able to handle noise considerably better. It gives fullsize (6mp output) ISO800 files that look a lot better than the 602's 1mp (couples photodiodes, 1mp is the only output choice at ISO800 and ISO1600) files. The noise in the gray patch of the ISO800 shot looks like the noise I get from IS0400 with better interpolation on top of that.
Same thing with the ISO1600 F700 vs S602Z: F700 wins.

My conclusion: SR sensors seems to do better when it comes to noise.

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.org
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/
 
. . . do any of you guys actually take photos?
 
My conclusion: SR sensors seems to do better when it comes to noise.
I agree the S part of the SR is very good, however, the R sensor does seem to have more noise. Afterall it is a smaller sensor.

Also, the SR sensor does work just as advertised. The F700 sensor processing is crippled.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=6778679

Thread your way through all of the threads above if you are interested in seeing what the SR might be able to do.

David
 

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