Long, thoughtful, provocative 828 advice

Again, I said in my original post that we will see great pictures from the 828, but that it has some major flaws that would require too much manual labor for me to justify selecting it as my camera of choice.

I don't remember commenting on the kit lens, where did that come from?

It's easy to criticize when you paint with such a wide brush. Please feel free to be specific if you can and point out any ridiculous things I said.

-Todd
You said some really out there, ridiculous things.

If you think the 300D and its kit lens is excellent quality, well I
hope you enjoy them. I'm not going to go onto the Canon forum and
enumerate their flaws.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
 
Fair enough Todd,

Your real life experience with the DRebel proves the importance of trying one out.

It was never my intention to attack you on your choice, i think you made a very valid post describing your dilemma.

The look and feel and the speed of the F828 compared to 7x7 is a very important plus for me and has to be experienced.

I'm sure it would have made the choice more difficult for you if you had tried the 828 out :).

But i agree that image quality is the most important factor, I myself have never had my hands on a DRebel and decided that i am not going the dslr route (yet), but cycle times of new camera's are becoming shorter and shorter and my opinion may be different a few years from now.
happy shooting,

Rob
This probably opens me up to some attack, but no, I have not used
the 828 myself. My opinion is based on all of the images I've
seen, the reviews I've read and all of the posts here and
elsewhere. I would certainly advise that if someone is interested
in the 828, they should try it for themselves.

I'll spare you some of the details, but I originally bought my F717
at Sears with a replacement warranty. When it broke, they let me
trade it for anything I wanted, so I got the DRebel. That was
before the 828 was shipping. The manager said I could swap it for
the 828 when that comes in if I would rather have the 828. So
that's how I got my hands on the DRebel. When I brought it home, I
thought it would be temporary, but as things have unfolded, I'm
taking the best pictures of my life, and just thrilled with
everything about the DRebel.

Maybe my post would have more credibility with some folks if I was
saying "look at all the PF in these pictures I've taken with the
828." But there are enough people doing that here already. My
post wasn't just about the cameras, but mainly about the personal
journey of being a brand loyalist, and what it takes to overcome
that irrational feeling.

-Todd
 
Is the 300D
"better" than the 828? Maybe yes, maybe no. Does it matter if you
really want to do photographs? Probably not.
Nicely spoken. I agree with you totally. My brother is awaiting his
300D while I already have my F828. I'm sure we will have lot's of
fun shooting together. Isn't that what it's all about?

--
René Kreijveld
My gallery: http://www.kreijveld.nl/coppermine
Dutch Forum: http://www.kreijveld.nl/nlf828forum
--
Olivia
http://photos.yahoo.com/whispersfromspirit
 
Todd, I reluctantly -- most reluctantly -- came to the same conclusion you did. I am sticking with my 717, hoping Sony will either work up an 828V, 929 or whatever to put these 828 issues in the dustbin. In this case, the One-Eyed God's reach exceeded his grasp.
Fellow STF'ers,

I've been a long-time Sony loyalist, starting with the S70 (my
first digital camera, which I still own and use) and moving on
through the F707 and the F717. When the 828 was announced, I
started preparing to purchase it. I was scouring German web sites,
printing them to PDF out of fear that they would disappear by the
next morning. In my heart and mind, I was 100% committed to buying
the next Sony even before there was an 828...that is embarassing to
admit, because I feel foolish for having already made my mind with
no objective information to go on. All I knew was that the 828 was
going to be amazing and that it would be mine. And with all of the
Sony accessories I already own, the 828 would have been a natural
and affordable fit.

Then the DRebel got announced. My first reaction was to defend the
STF against these Canon trolls who started calling it the "828
killer." I wanted the 828 to be so good, and those Canon fanboys
made me so mad, I really was almost angry about it. Then when the
DRebel pictures started getting posted, I found myself reluctantly
realizing that they were indeed very nice. In fact, I would never
have admitted it, but I was becoming quite jealous of the Canon's
incredibly-shallow DOF and the creative possibilities that opens
up. But I still was sold on the 828, and that was it, case closed.

So I waited patiently for 828 pictures to show up. The early ones
were awful...and everyone said "it's preproduction, wait and see,"
so I kept on waiting. Then more pics showed up, but they weren't
much better. Finally, all of the excuses became void when real
pictures started showing up in reviews and from early owners.

Unfortunately, no matter how much I tried to make it not so by
wishing, it slowly became obvious that the 828 is severely flawed.
I took thousands of pics with my F7x7 cameras, and obviously
processing can improve most pics, but processing wasn't REQUIRED to
make a simple 4"x6" print for family and friends. I don't have time
to post-process every picture I take. And I shouldn't really have
to. But the problems with the 828 practically REQUIRE that you
post-process just to get rid of all of the problems people are
talking about in this forum.

Ultimately, it was a conclusion I didn't want to believe, but I
finally couldn't deny it any longer. The Canon forum is full of
stunning pictures that just can't be taken by the Sony, and I had
to admit that Sony had lost me.

In making that decision, I asked myself a couple of basic
questions. First, it is hard enough to find yourself in that moment
when everything aligns to create a great scene worth photographing.
Why wouldn't I want the best tool in my hand when that happens?
Yes, we will see good pictures coming from the Sony, but the Canon
pics...there's just something special about them that I can't even
fully describe. They just have "the look" I've always hoped for in
my digital photographs.

Second, I don't have the time to post-process the majority of my
pics. With a wife, a two-year-old, a six-month-old and a busy job,
I need to simplify my life, not make things harder than they have
to be. The Canon pics are beautiful straight out of the camera, and
if I process them, it's because I want to tweak or play with
them...not FIX them.

And I am aware that some folks have created Photoshop actions that
will batch-process all of your pictures. Sometimes they work
pretty well, but they never completely fix anything. They just
desaturate or play with the brightness in an attempt to minimize
the 828's issues. Personally, I put too much effort into taking my
pictures to just blindly batch-process them all without any input
from me. And I don't have the time to "fix" them all individually,
either. I'm just not going to do it.

If you search back through my old posts, you'll find many where I
fiercely defended the Sony F7x7 pictures and capabilities in this
forum. And I still think the F717 is a fantastic camera...I
actually plan to buy one again when the price bottoms out someday.
But the 828 is not the same animal, and it just isn't worth the
frustration of dealing with it's flaws. Nothing disappoints like
loading up a folder full of newly-taken pics and realizing that
most of them have glaring technical flaws--flaws that prevent you
from being able to enjoy them even as simple snapshots without
having to try and "save" them with post-processing. Photography
should be fun and enjoyable, not frustrating.

I hope that makes some sense to you guys. I'm not trying to dump on
the Sony 828, but a lot of you are in the same spot I was in
recently, and I wanted to share my experiences. Some of you guys
may get the 828 and never regret it, and you may enjoy staying up
late at night removing purple fringing from all your pictures. But
to me, having to do that is a heck of a lot more inconvenient than
changing lenses. And I have to say, once you get used to the DSLR,
you'll change your way of thinking. Being able to change lenses
isn't a burden, it's an opportunity.

Believe me, it took a lot--a LOT--for me to leave my Sony-first
mentality behind, but now that I've been using the Canon DRebel,
I'm taking the best photographs of my life. And I don't regret my
decision for a single moment.

Good luck,
Todd
 
I'm sure you're right about that. As badly as I want the 828 to be the perfect camera, I'd probably be much more willing to overlook its flaws if I had already purchased one. That would have made parting with Sony even more difficult.

-Todd
I'm sure it would have made the choice more difficult for you if
you had tried the 828 out :).
 
No Andy, you must read a little deaper into what i said rather than just applying your spin on it.

I started off with a quality fixed lens design then moved to another fixed lens design than realised if I wanted to continue producing a wider scope of work i had to move to a DSLR.
At the time they were too expensive but now they are affordable.
That is the point most photographers reach at some stage

if you want to stay with a fixed lens design than that is fine,but it is also limiting what you can do,but if you are happy staying that way then that's fine.

For me though,I like a lot of others had to move on,and the only reason was to give ourselves a wider choice of work and subject.

Naturally coming from an SLR background it was only a matter of time before that happened.
The only thing that held me back was the cost.
grease monkeys? No....definately not.
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
 
You summed it up very well.

-Todd
I dont think people are frustrated with the 828 because it is, in
and of itself, a bad camera. I think they are frustrated because it
COULD be a BETTER camera.
Did you consider the Minolta A1? In RAW - and it comes with good RAW processing s/w - it is as good as most 5Mp cameras, same zoom range as the 828, virtually NO pf. Noise is a problem but NeatImage fixes this quite well. Add 3 sec shot to shot, v.quick autofocus, and a host of controls and it's quite a camera.
--
TonySD
 
I think the point of contention was when you said that fixed-lens photographers are not really photographers but rather just people chasing the latest and greatest digicam fad.

Throughout photographic history there have been many great photographers who relied on fixed-lens cameras either primarily or secondarily, and there have been many great photos taken with fixed-lens cameras. Certainly there is a place for them in the world of photography.

Maybe we can all agree on that point and put that argument to rest.

-Todd
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
 
No I didn't, but I hear good things about it.

My decision was really 828 vs. DRebel. If I was going to make the financial investment into moving away from my Sony gear, I was going to go with a DSLR. I'll probably come back to the fixed-lens world eventually, but it will be as a supplement to my DSLR, not a replacement.

But I do miss my F717. I'll either get a used one when they are down around $300 or I'll get whatever replaces the 828 if they can fix the current problems in the next model.

-Todd
You summed it up very well.

-Todd
I dont think people are frustrated with the 828 because it is, in
and of itself, a bad camera. I think they are frustrated because it
COULD be a BETTER camera.
Did you consider the Minolta A1? In RAW - and it comes with good
RAW processing s/w - it is as good as most 5Mp cameras, same zoom
range as the 828, virtually NO pf. Noise is a problem but
NeatImage fixes this quite well. Add 3 sec shot to shot, v.quick
autofocus, and a host of controls and it's quite a camera.
--
TonySD
 
Shay,

It was posts like this one that I had in mind when I wrote that line:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=7281264

Where someone says that 5 minutes per shot is all it takes to fix an average picture, and "it's a whole lot of fun, too!"

I don't have 5 minutes per picture just to try and fix problems caused my my camera. Why that would even be fun is beyond me, but that's what I meant. Not a dig, as you perceived it to be.

-Todd
I was mostly ok with your post up until that line. That and the
lines that followed made the post into a propaganda post. Your new
found lack of respect for Sony users shows through here. Show
respect, and you will receive respect.

I am glad however that you were able to shake your Sony first
attitude, that is just not healthy. And I am glad you are finally
getting the results you are looking for from your new Canon gear.
-Todd
I don't understand the angry tone of your post, especially from you
of all people. I think my position is pretty reasonable, just as
there are reasonable people who will feel differently. But that's
no reason for anger to surface. Usually, anger is how we respond
when our attachment to a position is at least partly irrational.

-Todd
Nice try, but this is just a bunch of hooey. Just because you were
not honest with yourself, does not mean others are suffering from
the same delusion you were under. No camera is perfect, and it
sounds like you deep down wanted an SLR and finally found the
justification you needed to do so. Good for you. But don't
project that to the rest of us please.

Enjoy the Canon forum.

--
'Don't blame your camera, it's only doing what you make it do.'
--



Inferior Camera Photography - the newest extreme sport
--



Inferior Camera Photography - the newest extreme sport
 
The fact is that NONE of the "flaws" of the 300D affect its overall picture QUALITY. Picture taking ability: yes. But as soon as you buy a single flash, 90% of the problems you are talking about (with reference to picture taking) go AWAY. All you are then left with is spot meter issues. Further, dont even start with the "focusing issues". That is a 10D problem, and is LENS dependent anyway.

So by all means....enumerate away.
You said some really out there, ridiculous things.

If you think the 300D and its kit lens is excellent quality, well I
hope you enjoy them. I'm not going to go onto the Canon forum and
enumerate their flaws.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon
 
quote: "If your main priority in photography is to own the latest all in one and as light as possible camera then you are not a photographer,your just one of the crowd of owners looking for convenience."

Andy williams turned that into:

"Fixed lens users are not photographers"

I read it as: "If you are more into the technology than you are into whether or not it actually takes decent pictures, then you are not a photographer".

If that is what he meant, I agree wholeheartedly.

There is simply too much ambiguity in his statement for anyone to know for certain what he meant. And to attempt to tell him that I/you/andy/we do is simply the apex of human arrogance on our part.

Daemeon
Throughout photographic history there have been many great
photographers who relied on fixed-lens cameras either primarily or
secondarily, and there have been many great photos taken with
fixed-lens cameras. Certainly there is a place for them in the
world of photography.

Maybe we can all agree on that point and put that argument to rest.

-Todd
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon
 
Andy williams turned that into:

"Fixed lens users are not photographers"

I read it as: "If you are more into the technology than you are
into whether or not it actually takes decent pictures, then you are
not a photographer".

If that is what he meant, I agree wholeheartedly.

There is simply too much ambiguity in his statement for anyone to
know for certain what he meant. And to attempt to tell him that
I/you/andy/we do is simply the apex of human arrogance on our part.

Daemeon
Throughout photographic history there have been many great
photographers who relied on fixed-lens cameras either primarily or
secondarily, and there have been many great photos taken with
fixed-lens cameras. Certainly there is a place for them in the
world of photography.

Maybe we can all agree on that point and put that argument to rest.

-Todd
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon
 
And for the record, I am typing on a Sony Vaio, own a V1, and a 717, bought a P92 for my mom, own a Sony 34HS510, and have just proven that you have no idea what you are talking about. =)
Andy williams turned that into:

"Fixed lens users are not photographers"

I read it as: "If you are more into the technology than you are
into whether or not it actually takes decent pictures, then you are
not a photographer".

If that is what he meant, I agree wholeheartedly.

There is simply too much ambiguity in his statement for anyone to
know for certain what he meant. And to attempt to tell him that
I/you/andy/we do is simply the apex of human arrogance on our part.

Daemeon
Throughout photographic history there have been many great
photographers who relied on fixed-lens cameras either primarily or
secondarily, and there have been many great photos taken with
fixed-lens cameras. Certainly there is a place for them in the
world of photography.

Maybe we can all agree on that point and put that argument to rest.

-Todd
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
--
'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as
you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon
--

'One more time we hear.......the images look great, just so long as you don't look at them'

Justin Blethrow on the rabid defense of a certain 'other' camera.

http://www.pbase.com/daemeon
 
for the record, i'm buying a dslr, have said so for a few days now. will have it to complement my awesome sony. the sony does things that no dslr can do.

i'm a photographer. i have a large format film camera that i recently had fun with.

i still take some photos with an old voigtlander rangefinder camera i have.

and yes, i and i'm sure others take umbrage at you saying that we're not photographers.
i misunderstoon nothing. you think that we're a bunch of grease
monkeys using inferior equipment.
--
-- andy
http://www.moonriverphotography.com
 
don't waste your time. when people argue that you can work "harder" on an electronic consumer product, they are already out of mind. The basic elements of photography are aperature, shutter speed and focusing (or to the most extreme, with color temperature). I don't see how "hard" you can work with these variables. I do sadly admit that this forum is fully of people arguing subjectively with poor logic and giving no technical solutions. I can say, the chance of getting the PF you saw in this forum is a LOT HIGHER than any other equivalent cameras. don't get blind on seeing those "masterpieces". always ask:

1. was the photo taken in a controlled environment?

2. how many photos you have to take in order to get that? (yes, there's always a chance for you to get good photos)
3. any editing was done to photo?
4. why the photographer always have time on streets or on location?

anyway, I am going to work "harder" to make my fridge to fly. good to know you are happy with the Canon. happy shooting!
Regards,

Kai
You have to work harder to minimize noise on the 707 or 828 vs.
dRebel. But I have large prints 12x16 with no noise problems.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
 
You wouldn't be by chance the same individual name calling a certain someone a Canon fanboy awhile back?

I think that was you.

How nice to hear you've a change of heart. Almost sounded like an apology.

Eric
 
Todd Meyers,

I understand your position quite well. I too was all set to purchase the 828. Who couldn't like the stats? But image quality is paramount in my mindset. I don't care HOW MANY BELLS AND WHISTLES there are...the bottom line is the image. I too went with the Rebel. I'm not going to look back. Damn, I wish the Sony was what they said it would be.
 

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