Why 6 Mpix is Not Enough

Jay B

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Hello, all:

Had a very difficult assignment this weekend - a high-key studio shoot of two very cute but hyperactive girls, ages 1 and 2-3/4. At no time were either of these girls still. Usually they were moving at or near maximum speed around the lighting set. The mom had tried several other photographers with (what she considered) little luck.

So... what to do? High-speed kids, finicky Mom.

First, I flooded the set with light, main and fill to either side of the camera (Canon D60) at 45 degrees, white paper backdrop/floor lit by two background strobes, one rather broad gridded hairlight overhead. 2000 watt-seconds total on a 9 foot by 9 foot set.

I placed props (hats, cute dolls) at strategic intervals on the set perimeter to catch the kids attention, and my assistant helped encourage them to play.

Then, the adults acted as bumper cushions, redirecting the kids as the bounced around in the shooting space wearing hats, carrying dolls and whatnot. I set the lens (Canon 24-70L) to cover the set, f13 for deep depth of field, shutter speed at max synch (1/200th) and tripped the camera via wired remote release (I've just GOT to get an RF remote). 106 shots later, we were fininshed.

In general, the "sweet zone" for the effect I sought was only about 2 feet deep by 6 feet wide. Even with the main and fill at 45 degrees, getting the correct facial angles was... random. And lighting ratios varied with subject location. Thats why I love digital, too. No film changing, infinite supply at near zero cost.

Many resulting images needed to be heavily cropped in Photoshop, to capture just the girls... but... it worked. So, out of 6.3 Mpix, some shots use only 2 Mpix due to cropping. Good enough for 5x7's. And a few are good for 8x10's. THIS is one reason why I need more pixels. For dynamic subjects, I need to shoot much wider angle than normal, to capture unpredictable movement, then crop down. Accurate framing is not possible. Therefore, 50 percent or so of pixel capacity is thrown away.

I did and carry the camera and shoot on the fly for some of the images. But most were taken from a tripod mount.

This shoot also demonstrated why I like powerful strobes. The need to flood a broad area with light - and maintain fast recycle time (about 1.5 sec. at the power levels I used). I used 5 Travelite 750's.

I had to quickly select a few examples and process them in PS7 to show the mom. She was sure that we got nothing. But... not so. We had quite a few "good ones". After post processing, I've got 22 proofs to provide and will see her tomorrow. Wish mw luck!

Brian C.
 
Had a very difficult assignment this weekend - a high-key studio
shoot of two very cute but hyperactive girls, ages 1 and 2-3/4. ...
I assume the camera was on a tripod based on the remainder of your description.

Why would you set up the system for zone focusing and then rely on severe cropping to extract the image? This seems odd since you have more than enough light and have a zoom that is fast to use? The active tots should be easy to shoot - particularily if you keep both eyes open (one for the viewfinder and the other for "looking aroung").

Admittedly, high key can accomodate loss of quality better than other image styles.

It would be interesting to see some images, including the "severe crop" shots.

tony
 
Why would anyone want to put up with this sort of nonsense?

I'd tell the mother the same thing the previous two photographers apparently did: gain control of your snotty kids, teach them some discipline, and take your bratty kids to Wal*Mart or some other photographer willing to put up with your icky kids.
 
You are being rude Zippy. Apparently your income does not count on photography or you would not say such things. This may be Brians bread and butter so if he were to take your advice, his income goes down.

Also the fact that Brian did not turn them away, shows the client that she will only come back to Brians studio because he was able to work with her children when no one else could. That increases his business and also more clients because the mom with tell other moms what a great job he did considering what he has been through and the childrens behavior.

And I assume you have no children from your attitude. Brian gets an 'A' for his effort and hard work. I know what he went through. I have 4 children.

I can only hope that you were joking with your statements....Melissa
Why would anyone want to put up with this sort of nonsense?
Someone whos income is dependent on photographing portraits for a living.
I'd tell the mother the same thing the previous two photographers
apparently did: gain control of your snotty kids, teach them some
discipline, and take your bratty kids to Wal*Mart or some other
photographer willing to put up with your icky kids.
You wouldn't say that if it costs you money.

--
http://www.pbase.com/mnewco/inboxf/4.5-5.6 E

See my profile for equipment
I have an email. Pbase supporter
 
You let the kids have too much space. Did you and the parents think it was cute to let them run around? Did you have to brush their hair and adjust their clothes while they ran around your set? I have been in a similar situation before. I asked the parents to LEAVE. Parents are the biggest distraction. Wide angle high key portraits??? Are you nuts???? 6 Megapixels is good enough for National Geographic, Time ane every newspaper in the country but not for you?
 
Not joking at all.

Kids are fine, but unruly ones aren't. If there are people in the world who want to deal with parents who can't control their kids, then so be it, but I have more respect for myself, my profession, and my expensive equipment than to put up with a parent who is incapable of controlling her children. Was that you and your children I was sitting next to at the nice restaurant the other night? :)
 
One more thought, Melissa... are you saying that the photographer should let the client do anything at all as long as they're paying you money? There's a LOT of money in shooting pornographic images (a lot more than shooting snotty kids). if you had a client who paid you $500 up front for a "unique" photo and then once in the studio you found out they wanted a picture of themselves taking a dump, would you say, "Oh, OK, I really need the money and I have no respect for myself, so therefore go ahead, dump away!"?

Not everything revolves around money. You have to be willing to turn away clients that you don't want. Tweo uncontrolable kids bouncing off my studio walls is not something I need. Apparently at least two other pro photographers who saw these kids felt the same way.

Melissa
Why would anyone want to put up with this sort of nonsense?
Someone whos income is dependent on photographing portraits for a
living.
I'd tell the mother the same thing the previous two photographers
apparently did: gain control of your snotty kids, teach them some
discipline, and take your bratty kids to Wal*Mart or some other
photographer willing to put up with your icky kids.
You wouldn't say that if it costs you money.
 
I am not saying you were all wrong on your opinion but you could have put it in other words than to be so blunt. If it were me in this situation, I would have tolorated it for 30 minutes or so and then kindly explain to the mother to bring them back for another try. After all she spend alot of time dressing her kids up to have their picture taken and then when she can't get someone to do it, she feels like a failure and may even take it out on her kids when she gets home and that situation could lead to something else. Clients should be made to feel that everything was tried that could be done and then she won't feel so bad. I don't know how everyone feels on this forum but I am a compassionate person and that takes me along way.

I also believe that a photographer should have a knack for children. One of my children was not happy having his picture taken but the photographer was great in getting the childs attention that the rest of the shoot went well and I got some nice pictures out of the deal.

I would never spend as along as what Brian did but gave it a try because who knows why.

All I am saying to you is just reword without hurting someones feelings. I thought this forum has something that no one forum has and that is support for others....Melissa
Not joking at all.

Kids are fine, but unruly ones aren't. If there are people in the
world who want to deal with parents who can't control their kids,
then so be it, but I have more respect for myself, my profession,
and my expensive equipment than to put up with a parent who is
incapable of controlling her children. Was that you and your
children I was sitting next to at the nice restaurant the other
night? :)
--
http://www.pbase.com/mnewco/inboxf/4.5-5.6 E

See my profile for equipment
I have an email. Pbase supporter
 
Brian Clebowicz2 wrote:
snip
I set the lens (Canon 24-70L) to cover the set,
f13 for deep depth of field, shutter speed at max synch (1/200th)
and tripped the camera via wired remote release (I've just GOT to
get an RF remote). 106 shots later, we were fininshed.
snip
Accurate framing is not possible. Therefore, 50 percent or so of
pixel capacity is thrown away.
I am trying to figure out the whole setup, it seems that the camera is on a tripod with a wide lens pointing at the set. The kids are running around the set and the camera is tripped by remote control?

So then you crop in to close ups from the wide angle shot?

You don't need more pixels, you need a different technique. Your set up works at the bank, but maybe looking through the lens would help.
 
Working with kids is great.. Not easy with very active children like the ones you had, but children make the best natural photos. I would probably suggest a calm groomed pet they can all sit around and pet while you go snip snip :-) A subtle old dog, a gold fish in a bowel, a colorful parrot, ... etc.

So, when are you getting your Canon EOS-1Ds? ;-)

Best of luck tomorrow and the days after,
Waleed
Hello, all:

Had a very difficult assignment this weekend - a high-key studio
shoot of two very cute but hyperactive girls, ages 1 and 2-3/4. At
no time were either of these girls still. Usually they were moving
at or near maximum speed around the lighting set. The mom had
tried several other photographers with (what she considered) little
luck.

So... what to do? High-speed kids, finicky Mom.

First, I flooded the set with light, main and fill to either side
of the camera (Canon D60) at 45 degrees, white paper backdrop/floor
lit by two background strobes, one rather broad gridded hairlight
overhead. 2000 watt-seconds total on a 9 foot by 9 foot set.

I placed props (hats, cute dolls) at strategic intervals on the set
perimeter to catch the kids attention, and my assistant helped
encourage them to play.

Then, the adults acted as bumper cushions, redirecting the kids as
the bounced around in the shooting space wearing hats, carrying
dolls and whatnot. I set the lens (Canon 24-70L) to cover the set,
f13 for deep depth of field, shutter speed at max synch (1/200th)
and tripped the camera via wired remote release (I've just GOT to
get an RF remote). 106 shots later, we were fininshed.

In general, the "sweet zone" for the effect I sought was only about
2 feet deep by 6 feet wide. Even with the main and fill at 45
degrees, getting the correct facial angles was... random. And
lighting ratios varied with subject location. Thats why I love
digital, too. No film changing, infinite supply at near zero cost.

Many resulting images needed to be heavily cropped in Photoshop, to
capture just the girls... but... it worked. So, out of 6.3 Mpix,
some shots use only 2 Mpix due to cropping. Good enough for 5x7's.
And a few are good for 8x10's. THIS is one reason why I need more
pixels. For dynamic subjects, I need to shoot much wider angle
than normal, to capture unpredictable movement, then crop down.
Accurate framing is not possible. Therefore, 50 percent or so of
pixel capacity is thrown away.

I did and carry the camera and shoot on the fly for some of the
images. But most were taken from a tripod mount.

This shoot also demonstrated why I like powerful strobes. The need
to flood a broad area with light - and maintain fast recycle time
(about 1.5 sec. at the power levels I used). I used 5 Travelite
750's.

I had to quickly select a few examples and process them in PS7 to
show the mom. She was sure that we got nothing. But... not so.
We had quite a few "good ones". After post processing, I've got 22
proofs to provide and will see her tomorrow. Wish mw luck!

Brian C.
--
--
Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life
 
...I'm surprised no one has mentioned the insurance ramifications of all this...I would never allow this to go on with children...highly controlled action sequences with adults...yes...as others have mentioned you have to be creative in these type of situations but never allow mayhem to ensue...you should consider yourself lucky there wasn't an accident...
I set the lens (Canon 24-70L) to cover the set,
f13 for deep depth of field, shutter speed at max synch (1/200th)
and tripped the camera via wired remote release (I've just GOT to
get an RF remote). 106 shots later, we were fininshed.
snip
Accurate framing is not possible. Therefore, 50 percent or so of
pixel capacity is thrown away.
I am trying to figure out the whole setup, it seems that the camera
is on a tripod with a wide lens pointing at the set. The kids are
running around the set and the camera is tripped by remote control?

So then you crop in to close ups from the wide angle shot?

You don't need more pixels, you need a different technique. Your
set up works at the bank, but maybe looking through the lens would
help.
 
In Scottsdale, AZ a mother let her hyperactive child unattended at a chiropractor. Well the kid went into another room and started some equipment that crushed the kid.

Sad day there!
...I'm surprised no one has mentioned the insurance ramifications
of all this...I would never allow this to go on with
children...highly controlled action sequences with
adults...yes...as others have mentioned you have to be creative in
these type of situations but never allow mayhem to ensue...you
should consider yourself lucky there wasn't an accident...
 
Melissa, Zippy:

Interesting feedback.

Melissa, thanks for the support.

Zippy - you really don't have kids, do you? I have two boys, and from that experience have gained both patience and understanding.

The two girls I shot were one and almost three, an age range in which children have new found mobility, little self-control and want to explore. They were beautiful children - very photogenic, and very affectionate. But... they were much more active than usual. And the mom had been sent to me by another client - a good one. I was warned well in advance that what the problems were, asked specifically to solve them and planned accordingly. The zone approach works well - I've used it before with problematic children. Yes, its tedious to set up, and requires post-processing, and limits the size of prints. But to parents, particulary those of children with issues, it yields something precious, even if it is 5x7, 8x10 rather than 11x14 or bigger.

The mom was never in the way. But she had been dissapointed before. And the whole shoot took 60 minutes. Post processing another 120 and setup another 60. She will pay accordingly and will likely be pleased (her sister dtopped by to look at the proofs today and was excited). I enjoyed this difficult shoot because it was a challenge - anything but boring. And the more word of mouth advertising I'll get is valuable - much of my work is on this basis.

As for being quick with the camera body... Ho! Ho! Ho!... that's a good one! No one is THAT quick to compose, focus (maybe adjust exposure or lighting) and shoot. These kids were fast!

Someone asked me to post images of this type of shoot. Hmmm. I'll have to think about that - the problem is that most of my clients specifically no NOT want images of their children out of their control. I think you can imagine why. But I DO have some of my own. I'll see what I can do.

Brian C.
 
Don:

I was hired to solve a problem - with children having known issues. And I did. It worked well. I'm sorry you don't approve of my solution. But then again, you probably don't have to solve my problems.

They were lovely kids, and the mom did her best to help and never complained.

As for high-key wide angle... Not wide angle. The camera was far enough back that I stayed above 80mm (effective). And the lighting zones were marked on the white flooring and removed in PS7. My assistant and the mom we briefed to encourage the kids to move through or play in this zone. Also, High Key tolerates more softness, and more exposure error on the high side, which helps. But I'm sure you know this.

Brian C.
 
It's funny that no one has really commented on what the original post was about. Everyone is focusing on the active children.

Brian, have you tried any of the enlarging techniques( no pun intended)? I've had some success enlarging in small steps. I just let photoshop do its thing( resample using bicubic), I just do it a little at a time. I do it manually but I've seen some actions that will do it for you.

You won't get huge prints this way but you might be able to get a 5x7 up to a 8x10.

Matt
Hello, all:

Had a very difficult assignment this weekend - a high-key studio
shoot of two very cute but hyperactive girls, ages 1 and 2-3/4. At
no time were either of these girls still. Usually they were moving
at or near maximum speed around the lighting set. The mom had
tried several other photographers with (what she considered) little
luck.

So... what to do? High-speed kids, finicky Mom.

First, I flooded the set with light, main and fill to either side
of the camera (Canon D60) at 45 degrees, white paper backdrop/floor
lit by two background strobes, one rather broad gridded hairlight
overhead. 2000 watt-seconds total on a 9 foot by 9 foot set.

I placed props (hats, cute dolls) at strategic intervals on the set
perimeter to catch the kids attention, and my assistant helped
encourage them to play.

Then, the adults acted as bumper cushions, redirecting the kids as
the bounced around in the shooting space wearing hats, carrying
dolls and whatnot. I set the lens (Canon 24-70L) to cover the set,
f13 for deep depth of field, shutter speed at max synch (1/200th)
and tripped the camera via wired remote release (I've just GOT to
get an RF remote). 106 shots later, we were fininshed.

In general, the "sweet zone" for the effect I sought was only about
2 feet deep by 6 feet wide. Even with the main and fill at 45
degrees, getting the correct facial angles was... random. And
lighting ratios varied with subject location. Thats why I love
digital, too. No film changing, infinite supply at near zero cost.

Many resulting images needed to be heavily cropped in Photoshop, to
capture just the girls... but... it worked. So, out of 6.3 Mpix,
some shots use only 2 Mpix due to cropping. Good enough for 5x7's.
And a few are good for 8x10's. THIS is one reason why I need more
pixels. For dynamic subjects, I need to shoot much wider angle
than normal, to capture unpredictable movement, then crop down.
Accurate framing is not possible. Therefore, 50 percent or so of
pixel capacity is thrown away.

I did and carry the camera and shoot on the fly for some of the
images. But most were taken from a tripod mount.

This shoot also demonstrated why I like powerful strobes. The need
to flood a broad area with light - and maintain fast recycle time
(about 1.5 sec. at the power levels I used). I used 5 Travelite
750's.

I had to quickly select a few examples and process them in PS7 to
show the mom. She was sure that we got nothing. But... not so.
We had quite a few "good ones". After post processing, I've got 22
proofs to provide and will see her tomorrow. Wish mw luck!

Brian C.
--
 
Gentlemen:

The set was prepared to be as friendly as possible, lighting secured, cords covered (mostly). Adults were in constant supervision. Liability was covered - my wife is a liability attorney and handles contracts & coverage. She does not like risk.

Please review my posts above. It seems my original post did not highlight that in this instance, I was specifically retained to do this shoot because of its known difficulty and my past successes with similar children. Children that other photographers gave up on.

I still wipe my brow after something like this. But I do appreciate the happiness I bring to the parents when I'm successful.

Brian C.
 
Hi, Matt:

Good suggestion - to interpolate resolution upward. That's exactly what I do, using Fred Miranda's SI Pro. It works for me, though others will argue there is better software.

Still, there is a certain softeness caused by cropping, zone focussing and motion blur. I weed out the obvious losers, interpolate up and USM the potentials. I generally can get a half dozen really good images out of 100, in a zone shoot. About 15 more are OK, and the rest are throw aways.

As for the comments on active children - boy - I really struck a nerve, didn't I. I can only speculate why. And very little sympathy - mostly anger. From landscape photographers, I guess :)

Brian C.
 
Hi, Waleed:

Yes, animals are good props and comfort children. But... they need lots of maintenence, some drool, all poop, and sometimes on the set. So... for the shoot in this post, I had a jumbo stuffed dog ("Snugs") that acted a little bit like a "kid anchor" and lots of interesting hats and stuffed animals. Kids will spontaneously pick these up and try them out - and the resulting images can be terrific. In fact, the hats yielded the best images, and one with Snugs came out well, too.

Not all of my child portrait sessions are this problematic - this was a special pair of kids. They were both photogenic and extremely active. Fixed poses were not an option. Though in some resulting images, they look perfectly serene. Due to technique, though, not reality.

Brian C.
 
After reading through your responses to others it kind of changed the perception that I had with your initial post. I understand where you are coming from and I am sure that you will have won over more than one new client. This person is going to tell her friends (if she has any ...difficult with unruly children :) that you were very professional and accomodating to her unique situation.

My wife and I brought up three children and have four grandchildren. We also host the annual family Christmas party and labor day and memorial day picnics. Kids are all over the place and the parents do very little to control them.

My hat is off to you :)

I still remeber hearing that story on the news and reading it in papers ...what a sad situation to have your child crushed in chiropractic equipment. Can you imagine what it would be like to be that doctor or assistant?

Regards,
Mike
Gentlemen:

The set was prepared to be as friendly as possible, lighting
secured, cords covered (mostly). Adults were in constant
supervision. Liability was covered - my wife is a liability
attorney and handles contracts & coverage. She does not like risk.

Please review my posts above. It seems my original post did not
highlight that in this instance, I was specifically retained to do
this shoot because of its known difficulty and my past successes
with similar children. Children that other photographers gave up
on.

I still wipe my brow after something like this. But I do
appreciate the happiness I bring to the parents when I'm successful.

Brian C.
 

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