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To my Fuji programmers friends

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FullFocus

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I have been using all sort of cameras since more than half a century, and while (as you can infer) I am not that young any longer, I can still manage most modern gadgets with fun and proficiency.

Except for modern digital cameras.

I own a Sony FF cameras, and also a fuji GFX medium format camera. I recently purchased a Fujifilm X-T50 as I have always been attracted by Fuji retro style and picture quality. Everything with the camera is great (and here I mean the picture quality), except for user interface which at each generation seems to become more convoluted and nonsensical.
I got mad (literally) spending two hours trying to find out how to configure the camera for A shooting mode when using a non-Fuji lens. I then got mad^2 in trying to go back to P mode.

At each generation the menus of the X series cameras has been changed (why?) and not gotten any clearer or simpler. I had an X-T1 years ago.

Dear programmers at Fuji: in my humble opinion the following functions should be implemented with clear, simple and immediate buttons or located at the highest levels of the menu choices:

- shooting mode: P, A, M and S
- photometry: large field, center or spot
- ISO choice
- flash configuration
- drive mode
- focus mode
- exposure bracketing (or bracket control)

(in this priority order)

All the other (far too numerous and confusing) functions could easily be relegated to lower level menus (and I would say, in many cases removed). They clutter the menus, and confuse the users and rarely (if ever) contribute to better pictures.
Look for instance at the AF-C custom Setting in the AF-MF mode submenu. Who cares!

If you look at the menus of the X-T50 you see that they are made as a mixture of functions to facilitate the life of the absolute beginner and of other obscure functions that in my 50 years of photography I myself have never used (I do not care what sort of object the autofocus should expect in order to focus onto, for instance). All of this is complex, frustrating, useless and does not help into getting 99.9% of my picture any better. It seems that such functions are only made to make reviewers of some magazines happier.
Please consider simple and stupid, before you (Fuji programmer) start programming for exotic and complicated!



PS For fairness and completeness my Sony camera menus are no better!
 
I'm not quite sure if you are asking for help or just making a point.

To answer a call for help:

Shooting mode. P is putting ISO, Aperture and speed into "A" (auto) mode. Done.
FullFocus said:
photometry: large field, center or spot
- ISO choice
- flash configuration
- drive mode
- focus mode
Click to expand...
For each of these, assign them to a button. I've done the first two (not bothered about the others) onto a button and it's as easy as 'press the button, move to what you want and press OK'.

Alan
 
If you want a PASM setup, you purchased the wrong camera. Fuji makes a number of models with PASM dials though most here prefer the legacy dial layout you are complaining about.

I'm not saying that Fuji's menus are good as they are rather disorganized and there manuals are terrible. Even though, once you spend a bit of time learning your way around you should be fine.

And don't forget, Fuji provides the Q button for you to arrange the menus the way you like.

I recommend return your camera or trade for a Fuji with a PASM dial.

Morris
 
Morris0 said:
And don't forget, Fuji provides the Q button for you to arrange the menus the way you like.
Click to expand...

…and if the Q menu doesn’t allow for a particular adjustment — though at first pass I believe all the OPs wants are covered – there’s the configurable My Menus.



I concur that the menus could be improved, and that the documentation definitely should be. Particularly to better explain interactions (and lockouts) between various settings. However, having spent the time to learn my cameras, and by extension all Fujifilm cameras to a high degree, selfish familiarity causes me to hope that the first wish isn’t granted.
 
FullFocus said:
Dear programmers at Fuji: in my humble opinion the following functions should be implemented with clear, simple and immediate buttons or located at the highest levels of the menu choices:
Click to expand...
Well, that’s subjective:
FullFocus said:
- shooting mode: P, A, M and S
Click to expand...
Not needed with the other dials. As someone else pointed out, this is simply not a PASM camera.
FullFocus said:
- photometry: large field, center or spot
Click to expand...
I almost never change this
FullFocus said:
- ISO choice
Click to expand...
Agreed
FullFocus said:
- flash configuration
Click to expand...
I never use this at all
FullFocus said:
- drive mode
Click to expand...
I never use this at all either
FullFocus said:
- focus mode
Click to expand...
I very rarely change this
FullFocus said:
- exposure bracketing (or bracket control)
Click to expand...
I never use this at all

So your suggestions work great for you, but not for me. Everyone is different.
FullFocus said:
Look for instance at the AF-C custom Setting in the AF-MF mode submenu. Who cares!
Click to expand...
Some people do. Everyone is different. But you don’t need to look at the AF-C custom settings. You can, as I do, simply ignore it.
FullFocus said:
All the other (far too numerous and confusing) functions could easily be relegated to lower level menus (and I would say, in many cases removed). They clutter the menus, and confuse the users and rarely (if ever) contribute to better pictures.
Look for instance at the AF-C custom Setting in the AF-MF mode submenu. Who cares!
Click to expand...
Is this not largely, if not entirely, solved by assigning your preferred functions to My Menu? It’s a feature that isn’t perfectly implemented, but it exists precisely so that you can access functions that are important to you (as can anyone else with their own preferences) without having to dive in the static menus.
 
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Thank you jaberg and Alan,

I was indeed trying to make a point which I find is getting forgotten or ignored by too many gadget manufacturers (I mean, not only of cameras).


In the end I did manage to get things eventually adjusted, but I still have difficulties in understanding why I have to learn complicated procedures to make simple things working. Common functionality is common functionality, and there is no reason why simple and universal operations should be made more complicated than necessary (yes, programming a button to achieve a certain functionality in a camera may be 'flexible', but it is also unnecessarily "complicated" !).

I can program in half a dozen computer languages, but I do not wish to write the code to 'personalize' my camera, even if this would give me the illusion of an almighty power, if you get the idea!

It seem to me that people have forgotten the disaster of the (mainly Japanese) generation of ~1980 VCRs where nobody ever managed to get a movie to be recorded at the desired time. Then Steve Jobs came and taught people what simple and elegant human interface architectures were. Which we are apparently forgetting, again.

Have a nice Sunday!
 
- ISO choice
- drive mode
- focus mode
- exposure bracketing

Fuji cameras have manual controls for all of these, that’s what we love about them!
 
I always thought a good solve for the "poor menu" layout that most everyone complains about, on almost ever camera brand (not just Fuji) is kind of simple. And not just one simple My Menu page.

Put the menu system in something like X Studio, and let the users drag whatever they want to whatever folder they want, and remove/hide items as they want. Then you save to the camera and boom, complete custom camera menu. You screwed up and forgot an item, well, that's your fault, so back to the App and correct and tweak as required.

But what dod I know. I also thought that a camera should be made with a 3-way tilt screen, AND one that is flippy and can close with screen inwards. You know, the 2 different types, but have each as an option, and you plug in the one you want. Some will buy both, even more profit and customization.
 
RWN Photo said:
Put the menu system in something like X Studio, and let the users drag whatever they want to whatever folder they want, and remove/hide items as they want. Then you save to the camera and boom, complete custom camera menu. You screwed up and forgot an item, well, that's your fault, so back to the App and correct and tweak as required.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your want here, but the (semi-retired?) tech support guy in me shudders at the thought. There are few things worse than sitting down at a client’s computer to troubleshoot, or trying to talk them through a process, and discovering that nothing is where it should be. The counterpoint is also true. After heavily optimizing your kit, it’s more difficult to pick up a stock device and go to work.

I wholeheartedly support customization, but with some limitation (and caution) to preserve a sense of base. That said, it’s your camera, and nothing requires me to use it, or to help you work through problems.
 
Last edited:
RWN Photo said:
I always thought a good solve for the "poor menu" layout that most everyone complains about, on almost ever camera brand (not just Fuji) is kind of simple. And not just one simple My Menu page.

Put the menu system in something like X Studio, and let the users drag whatever they want to whatever folder they want, and remove/hide items as they want. Then you save to the camera and boom, complete custom camera menu. You screwed up and forgot an item, well, that's your fault, so back to the App and correct and tweak as required.

But what dod I know. I also thought that a camera should be made with a 3-way tilt screen, AND one that is flippy and can close with screen inwards. You know, the 2 different types, but have each as an option, and you plug in the one you want. Some will buy both, even more profit and customization.
Click to expand...
I like your idea of complete customization and how to go about creating it. But I also see jaberg's point. Perhaps a setting to go between customized menu and standard menu would be a solution. All the settings, of course, would be the same for both.

I'm also wishing that all settings could be made on a computer and then saved to the camera. With more screen real estate, there shouldn't be the need to traverse back and forth through the menu hierarchy and trying to remember where things are. The menu system could be presented in a 'flat' view.
 
Let's face a fact: "Perfection" is an illusion.

In other words: Yes, certain aspects, for example the UI and menus, of the Fujifilm cameras may be in need of improvement. But considering the countless different needs and preferences of users it is, plain and simple, an illusion that there could ever be reached a state where at least a majority, I do not even write all, of the users would be really happy.

The solution, at least from my point of view: Accepting that life always will be a compromise! And, not to forget, there are alternatives. Means, it's all about looking for the option that suits my needs and preferences best, by taking into account all the necessary compromises I may have to make.

Do I like everything, again let's name UI and menus, about my Fujifilm cameras (I have 4 of them)? No, definitely not. But it is overall package what made me go for these products and I now simply accept the involved compromises, looking for workarounds, adjusting my way to handle the cameras where necessary, and so on. And despite all these "shortcomings" I like to use the product and have fun. Why bothering with something I cannot change or, most importantly, will never be "perfect"?

Herbert
 
raymondp1138 said:
I'm also wishing that all settings could be made on a computer and then saved to the camera. With more screen real estate, there shouldn't be the need to traverse back and forth through the menu hierarchy and trying to remember where things are. The menu system could be presented in a 'flat' view.
Click to expand...
Seeing all settings on one screen would be great - as long as it's only an option and the camera can still be configured without the aid of any external device.

As a nostalgic footnote my first digital SLR was the Sigma SD9 which on release had a menu that occupied only one page - without scrolling - and most of it was just stuff like date/time, card formatting etc.

the SD9 took the opposite approach to most later cameras and took "KISS" to extremes: raw image capture only so almost no need for a menu at all :-)

--
John Bean [GMT+1]
 
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First I want to point out that the Fujifilm menu system only got 3 meaningful updates since the very first X camera (aka the X100 in 2011).

The X100 was the only camera with that style of menu (maybe the X10 also had it?). It was slightly modernized with the X-Pro1 and X-E1, then slightly modernized again with the X-Trans II bodies (X-T1, X-E2,...)

The last and most meaningful update happened back in 2016, where the manu system got its current look and operation. Controls were set in lists rather than randomly arranged in one big menu page, the "My Menu" page was added. Since this update, the menus stayed the same and really only were minor changes, that only added options to the different menu lists depending on the new features added to successive Fujifilm cameras. So no, I wouldn't say that Fujifilm camera menus change every generation. In fact they are quite consistent.

As for the different modes :

- "A" mode means you control the aperture and let the shutter speed be automatic. Just put your shutter speed dial to "A". It doesn't matter if your lens is made by Fuji or not, it works the same for both. Just put the shutter speed in auto.

- the "P" more means both shutter speed and aperture are automatic. So in addition to the shutter speed dial set to "A" you need to put the aperture ring to "A" as well. When you have a lens without an aperture ring, just turn the dial that controls the aperture on your camera past the tightest aperture, and you'll be in P mode.

- S mode is the same as A mode, except you reverse which setting is set to auto and which isn't.

This is pretty self explanatory, even some old film cameras worked the same way, I don't understand how this can be such an issue. Your old X-T1 worked exactly the same way. If you wanted to have a properly labeled PSAM mode dial, you go the wrong camera.

As for all the "useless" menu options you don't use... just set your "My Menu" correctly, and for the things that you want to have access to, there are a few function buttons you can set up and you can configure the quick menu to taste as well.

The X-T50 is not a hard camera to use, it has more buttons and dials than most other cameras in this kind of size category.
 
I have worked in the software industry for maybe 35 or more years. This is how software (and its menus) gets developed:

Acme Inc bring out a product. In order to get it to market asap, it is developed as a Minimum Viable Product - i.e not everything is in it

User A wants function 1 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu

User B wants function 2 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu

and so on ...

Until ...... the menus look terrible because functions have been added as they arrive - as opposed to a cohesive product from the Get-Go.

Acme then re-develops the product to be cohesive as per prior requests

User C then wants function 3 added ... and so the wheel keeps on turning

I am no supporter of the Fuji menus, but they do have some sort of logic to them, if you can be bothered to spend the time required. Yes, they could be made easier, but I refer back to my example above ...

As already mention - the Q menu button, My Favourites and re-mapping function buttons are your friend

--
Fuji XT-5
(27 2.8), (33 1.4), (16-55), (50-140), (100-400), (1.4 TC)
 
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F9DOG said:
I have worked in the software industry for maybe 35 or more years. This is how software (and its menus) gets developed:

Acme Inc bring out a product. In order to get it to market asap, it is developed as a Minimum Viable Product - i.e not everything is in it

User A wants function 1 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu

User B wants function 2 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu

and so on ...
Click to expand...
Yes, but things only get out of hand if they get added. in unexpected places.
For example, the X-T50 added a "film simulation" dial with three customisable settings in addition to the fixed sims, so a menu item is needed to configure the new dial. So where is it? Perhaps in the "BUTTON/DIAL SETTING" section of the "Setup" menu, which seems logical and appropriate.

Of course not - the "FILM SIMULATION DIAL SETTING" is in the "I.Q." menu instead. Madness.
 
F9DOG said:
I have worked in the software industry for maybe 35 or more years. This is how software (and its menus) gets developed:

Acme Inc bring out a product. In order to get it to market asap, it is developed as a Minimum Viable Product - i.e not everything is in it

User A wants function 1 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu

User B wants function 2 added - Acme develops it and adds to menu
Click to expand...
Haha, yes. And let's not forget there should be UX specialist involved which often is not. And programmers make terrible user interfaces :D (I'm one as well)
 
MJ_Photo38 said:
As for all the "useless" menu options you don't use... just set your "My Menu" correctly, and for the things that you want to have access to, there are a few function buttons you can set up and you can configure the quick menu to taste as well.
Click to expand...
This what I have been doing for years. You only have to spend a small amount of time to add the menu options you use/need in the my menu page. Then I configure a couple of functions for tripod use to buttons, and all is done. This is not rocket science, and for those familiar with Fuji menus, should be simple.
MJ_Photo38 said:
The X-T50 is not a hard camera to use, it has more buttons and dials than most other cameras in this kind of size category.
Click to expand...
 
jaberg said:
RWN Photo said:
Put the menu system in something like X Studio, and let the users drag whatever they want to whatever folder they want, and remove/hide items as they want. Then you save to the camera and boom, complete custom camera menu. You screwed up and forgot an item, well, that's your fault, so back to the App and correct and tweak as required.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your want here, but the (semi-retired?) tech support guy in me shudders at the thought. There are few things worse than sitting down at a client’s computer to troubleshoot, or trying to talk them through a process, and discovering that nothing is where it should be. The counterpoint is also true. After heavily optimizing your kit, it’s more difficult to pick up a stock device and go to work.

I wholeheartedly support customization, but with some limitation (and caution) to preserve a sense of base. That said, it’s your camera, and nothing requires me to use it, or to help you work through problems.
Click to expand...
Both of you have excellent points. I like RWN's suggestion and fully appreciate the support issue because I experience it in many ways.

I can think of one solution to both. Just like how cameras today have Stills, Movie and S&Q positions on a dial, they can add a 'Custom' setting. No support if you get into that mode :)
 
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