Canon crop sensors and low light

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Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
 
It works fine.

dbe5b2290969465681ebd23a09988b43.jpg

R7 plus 18-150

F3.5, 1/60 handheld ISO 3200

3ba7237f02f94473bde143cef8ca31fb.jpg

R7 plus 18-150

F3.5, 1/50 handheld ISO 3200

Yoy need to get noise reduction sorted.

Look at Flickr Album to see a host of different situations


Ken

--
My Photo Stream
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
No, not at all.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
Again, no. The R7 sensor is excellent for a crop sensor, and the R7 focuses very well in low light, even with the 18-150. It's even better, of course, with a faster lens. I use the Sigma 18-50 F2.8 on mine most of the time, but I still have my 18-150 for when I want more reach.

Process with DXO, and you'll be amazed at the quality.
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
No, to all your questions. Especially if you use a good RAW converter such as DXO. But even with other RAW converters the results are excellent.
 
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Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
No, to all your questions. Especially if you use a good RAW converter such as DXO. But even with other RAW converters the results are excellent.
Even?

I hadn't realised DXO were our sponsors.
 
You addressed this for "Canon crop sensors" in the R forum. I do not have a R series Canon crop sensor cameras, but I do have Canon T7i (800D) and Canon M50 Mark II crop sensor cameras, that are generally good up to ISO6400 if the lighting is adequate (as SOOC JPEGs). I would expect something like the Canon R7 and R10 would meet or exceed what I get presently.

If you are going to use the camera for indoor performances, I found the full frame R series Canon RP to work well, with the silent shutter and no flash (with some limitations). This is where you can use high ISO levels and do not want any light coming from the camera.

When I first got the Canon RP I could take photos of people around the city at night up to ISO32000 generally. I only tested my other Canon R series full frame camera that I have a few times at night (which is the Canon R8), but it looked like ISO51200 would be good. I'll explain the Canon RP limitations if you want to know, but since you mentioned only Canon crop sensor cameras, I'll hold off. I'd be glad to provide samples.

Maybe someone else who has something like the Canon R7 or R10 can describe what their experiences are with the silent shutter and what ISO levels they use at indoor performances. This is important at plays where silence is mandated so as to not disturb the audience. At one indoor performance that I went to, I was told photography was not allowed, but because everything was silent coming from the camera without lighting or flash, I was able to photograph everything from start to end twice. I attended it the second time because the people I was with wanted to see it again. I thought that someone would tap me on the shoulder and tell me to stop, but no one did. I got dozens of beautiful photos with bright colors.
 
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Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
The answer to this may depend on whther you shoot RAW or JPEG, and which software you use to process the images with.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
I used to use 70D, then M5 crop cameras and process with an older version of LR or PS, and I generally limited my ISO to 1600 because I was not happy with the noise beyond that.

I now have R10 and use DxO to process and I have taken shots at ISO 12,800 and got acceptable results. The shots below were with RF 100-400, not RF-S 18-150, and, if anything, the 18-150 may perform slightly better because it is a slightly faster lens (obviously not at 400mm though).

This is not a night shot, but it was late afternoon, in deep shade, and shooting from a safari jeep - at ISO 12,800.

d8ed291630f445359fef016626efb975.jpg

This was also not night time, but in the middle of a tropical cyclone downpour - at ISO 12,800. The camera did struggle a little to achieve eye focus for some shots on the Eastern water Dragon - but that was because I was shooting through a curtain of rain which was confusing it a bit.

e065aee60d844d889c01378a86297b54.jpg

Another one in the same downpour - it is a particularly dull area around our pool - in a corner with overhanging trees - at full magnification you can see reasonable detail around the eye and on the scales etc - with acceptable noise levels;

25072d4532774bd4af497de591edc333.jpg

So, in general, no, you should not get mediocre, soft and desaturated results from a current Canon R crop body at high ISO, at least not in my experience. I do not know about the R100 because I think it may use an older sensor.

Specifically which camera were you referring to ?
 
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Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
The answer to this may depend on whther you shoot RAW or JPEG, and which software you use to process the images with.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
I used to use 70D, then M5 crop cameras and process with an older version of LR or PS, and I generally limited my ISO to 1600 because I was not happy with the noise beyond that.

I now have R10 and use DxO to process and I have taken shots at ISO 12,800 and got acceptable results. The shots below were with RF 100-400, not RF-S 18-150, and, if anything, the 18-150 may perform slightly better because it is a slightly faster lens (obviously not at 400mm though).

This is not a night shot, but it was late afternoon, in deep shade, and shooting from a safari jeep - at ISO 12,800.

d8ed291630f445359fef016626efb975.jpg

This was also not night time, but in the middle of a tropical cyclone downpour - at ISO 12,800. The camera did struggle a little to achieve eye focus for some shots on the Eastern water Dragon - but that was because I was shooting through a curtain of rain which was confusing it a bit.

e065aee60d844d889c01378a86297b54.jpg

Another one in the same downpour - it is a particularly dull area around our pool - in a corner with overhanging trees - at full magnification you can see reasonable detail around the eye and on the scales etc - with acceptable noise levels;

25072d4532774bd4af497de591edc333.jpg

So, in general, no, you should not get mediocre, soft and desaturated results from a current Canon R crop body at high ISO, at least not in my experience. I do not know about the R100 because I think it may use an older sensor.

Specifically which camera were you referring to ?


Those are wonderfully sharp and have nice color. They blow away anything I ever got on my slightly older D3400 with an 18-140 lens. I'm not very good, though. I'm more reliant on the camera to "get it right." But, I never hap sharpness/detail like that, it seems... especially not at higher ISO.

I was referring mainly to the R50, but I know the R50, R10, and I think R7 all use the same sensor and jpeg engine.
 
You addressed this for "Canon crop sensors" in the R forum. I do not have a R series Canon crop sensor cameras, but I do have Canon T7i (800D) and Canon M50 Mark II crop sensor cameras, that are generally good up to ISO6400 if the lighting is adequate (as SOOC JPEGs). I would expect something like the Canon R7 and R10 would meet or exceed what I get presently.
I remember Christmas before last when Walmart was clearing out its M200 (with kit lens) stock for 300 bucks. I should have gotten one. It was just the right size to carry in a jacket pocket, if I had gotten a 22mm F2.0 pancake lens.
If you are going to use the camera for indoor performances, I found the full frame R series Canon RP to work well, with the silent shutter and no flash (with some limitations). This is where you can use high ISO levels and do not want any light coming from the camera.
So the RP is noticeably better in low light? I don't remember much about it, except the reviews were kind of slagging on it for being more basic. But I don't really know what that means... more basic compared to other full frame, but still considerably better IQ than a crop camera?
When I first got the Canon RP I could take photos of people around the city at night up to ISO32000 generally. I only tested my other Canon R series full frame camera that I have a few times at night (which is the Canon R8), but it looked like ISO51200 would be good. I'll explain the Canon RP limitations if you want to know, but since you mentioned only Canon crop sensor cameras, I'll hold off. I'd be glad to provide samples.

Maybe someone else who has something like the Canon R7 or R10 can describe what their experiences are with the silent shutter and what ISO levels they use at indoor performances. This is important at plays where silence is mandated so as to not disturb the audience. At one indoor performance that I went to, I was told photography was not allowed, but because everything was silent coming from the camera without lighting or flash, I was able to photograph everything from start to end twice. I attended it the second time because the people I was with wanted to see it again. I thought that someone would tap me on the shoulder and tell me to stop, but no one did. I got dozens of beautiful photos with bright colors.
Kudos. I was at an outdoor event once, free to the public, and an irate woman came up to me demanding to know what I was taking pictures for.
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
No, not at all.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
Again, no. The R7 sensor is excellent for a crop sensor, and the R7 focuses very well in low light, even with the 18-150. It's even better, of course, with a faster lens. I use the Sigma 18-50 F2.8 on mine most of the time, but I still have my 18-150 for when I want more reach.

Process with DXO, and you'll be amazed at the quality.
Do you need anything else with it, or just DxO is the whole enchilada?
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
The answer to this may depend on whther you shoot RAW or JPEG, and which software you use to process the images with.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
I used to use 70D, then M5 crop cameras and process with an older version of LR or PS, and I generally limited my ISO to 1600 because I was not happy with the noise beyond that.

I now have R10 and use DxO to process and I have taken shots at ISO 12,800 and got acceptable results. The shots below were with RF 100-400, not RF-S 18-150, and, if anything, the 18-150 may perform slightly better because it is a slightly faster lens (obviously not at 400mm though).

This is not a night shot, but it was late afternoon, in deep shade, and shooting from a safari jeep - at ISO 12,800.

d8ed291630f445359fef016626efb975.jpg

This was also not night time, but in the middle of a tropical cyclone downpour - at ISO 12,800. The camera did struggle a little to achieve eye focus for some shots on the Eastern water Dragon - but that was because I was shooting through a curtain of rain which was confusing it a bit.

e065aee60d844d889c01378a86297b54.jpg

Another one in the same downpour - it is a particularly dull area around our pool - in a corner with overhanging trees - at full magnification you can see reasonable detail around the eye and on the scales etc - with acceptable noise levels;

25072d4532774bd4af497de591edc333.jpg

So, in general, no, you should not get mediocre, soft and desaturated results from a current Canon R crop body at high ISO, at least not in my experience. I do not know about the R100 because I think it may use an older sensor.

Specifically which camera were you referring to ?
Those are wonderfully sharp and have nice color. They blow away anything I ever got on my slightly older D3400 with an 18-140 lens. I'm not very good, though. I'm more reliant on the camera to "get it right." But, I never hap sharpness/detail like that, it seems... especially not at higher ISO.

I was referring mainly to the R50, but I know the R50, R10, and I think R7 all use the same sensor and jpeg engine.
AFAIK R10 and R50 share a 24Mp sensor, but the R7 is definitely a completely different 32Mp sensor.

I always shoot RAW, so I really can't comment on the JPEG aspect.

It is, IMO, far better to shoot RAW and do the conversion with DxO. DxO has extremely good lens & camera correction profiles that almost always improve the image sharpness etc. DxO's DeepPrime (and better) noise reduction appears to be industry leading.

Often I find that the process of applying corrections - like those in the images above, are a simple exercise that takes a few seconds. The lens/camera corrections are applied automatically, tick a box for DeepPrime NR if higher ISO was used, and perhaps a light adjustment to highlights & shadows or saturation etc, and convert - done. It is also possible to simply copy the edit settings from one image to any other similar images with a simple copy/paste. I do occasionally use Photshop after DxO but this rare as I find DxO does most of what I want - I usually don't play around much with masks and layers (which is a weakness in DxO), so for most people, DxO probably will cover 99% of their needs.

Unfortunately though, the DeepPrime NR only works with RAW images - it does NOT work with JPEG images - hence the recommendation to shoot RAW. Also, using RAW is generally a FAR better option when shooting in challenging light conditions because it provides the ability (in any RAW editor) to have far more latitude with making exposure or white balance adjustments.

As regards the R50 - I don't have one, but be aware that there is a pretty long laundry list of differences between it and R10, many of which are not detailed clearly in the spec sheets, or even most online reviews. I, and others, have posted (probably) most of those differences in a few threads in these forums. Some are quite significant, like automatic sensor cleaning, and others are less obvious, like R50 not being compatible with the much faster UHS-II SD cards, which is a double-whammy because R50 has a significantly smaller buffer than R10 (which is already a lot smaller than the likes of R8).

So my advice is to do some research to become familiar with those differences, and consider how they may impact you now and in the future (buy once and get it right, rather than buy cheap, buy twice).

If you only ever plan to shoot "happy snaps", mostly for social media (or have another much larger more capable camera like some R50 owners here - which I don't think describes your situation), then R50 may be perfectly adequate. However, if you intend getting a bit more serious about photography and think you may grow into it going forward, then R10 is probably a far better option.

As regards a FF camera, like the RP mentioned above, yes, FF is generally better in low light (high ISO) than a crop sensor. I have R10 and R8, and R8 was the "successor" to RP. R8 is better in low light than R10, but I do think that DxO has certainly helped to narrow the gap with high ISO performance.

Note that R8 body is quite a bit more costly than R10, and much more than R50, and the FF lenses are generally more costly as well, so while going FF certainly has advantages, it does have downsides. FF loses the 1.6x crop factor, so a 100-400 lens is 100-400mm, not a FF equivalent FoV of 160-640mm like if it was used on a crop camera.

This is a shot from R8 at ISO 25,600, processed with DxO. Best viewed at Original size and magnified.

84fc72f650dc4ea7bf73b133c4192e68.jpg
 
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Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?
No, not at all.
Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
Again, no. The R7 sensor is excellent for a crop sensor, and the R7 focuses very well in low light, even with the 18-150. It's even better, of course, with a faster lens. I use the Sigma 18-50 F2.8 on mine most of the time, but I still have my 18-150 for when I want more reach.

Process with DXO, and you'll be amazed at the quality.
Do you need anything else with it, or just DxO is the whole enchilada?
DXO Photolab is enough for most of my images. I have Lightroom as well, but don’t use it as much. It’s good for AI masking, and I have accumulated a lot of presets over the years that work with Lightroom, so sometimes I’ll export an image from DXO in DNG format to do more work in Lightroom.
 
My view is that in terms of light and noise my FF cameras have no advantage over my APS-C cameras in situations where I would need to use an extender with the FF.

If I’m using a variable Aperture zoom and I need to zoom to a longer focal length with my FF I again feel like I’m losing the FF advantage

jj
 
  1. Ephemeris wrote:
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
No, to all your questions. Especially if you use a good RAW converter such as DXO. But even with other RAW converters the results are excellent.
Even?

I hadn't realised DXO were our sponsors.
Well some of us here, a lot of us in fact, think DXO is the best currently available RAW converter. That’s our opinion, which is why we express it, but others are free to disagree. Even in the US, it’s still acceptable to disagree about some things, at least for now. I would dearly love DXO to be my sponsor. I don’t really resent paying for it, but free would be even better (especially since my retirement accounts are worth much less than they were a couple of weeks ago).
 
Yes, the Canon RP is better than the Canon crop sensor cameras that I'm using in terms of image quality and high ISO levels. The Canon RP DXOmark low-light ISO score of 2978 is up there with the Canon 5D Mark IV score of 2995. But the dynamic range is not as good. You can read about it. I bought it at a crazy low price refurbished on Black Friday about a year and a half ago. The Canon RP is older technology but I could not resist the price. I didn't think I needed it but I was blown away by its low light capability compared to what I already had (which was already excellent for me). The following year I purchased a Canon R8 refurbished which was even better.

I'd be glad to show you samples if you ask...if you are interested in a full frame camera for a good price. I can show you many photos at or above 25600 at night in the city plus some of my indoor performances. These were all SOOC JPEGs. One time I took some photos at ISO102400 with the Canon RP as RAW images. I used software to convert it to a JPEG image, but I found that the in-camera JPEG was just as good. I think if I used better software that I could have done better. Taking them RAW is not something I normally do, so it could have been also "user error". I just like pushing the envelope with these cameras.

If you want to stretch your budget I would recommend the Canon R8 over the Canon RP, for night time photography and indoor performances. I'm not familiar with the Canon R7 or R10, but I expect they would be really nice too.
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
Why the loaded question? What is leading you to ask it in such a way?
 
Are Canon crop sensor cameras noticeably mediocre in real world low light situations? Including when you have an all-purpose lens like the 18-150 mounted?

Say you are at a fair at night using such a lens, or you are taking pics of people on an outdoor stage. Is it really going to struggle to focus? The images soft and desaturated compared to competing models?
I've had fantastic results at fairs at night using the old Bridge-Cameras without even using a 'larger' sensor like APS-C... but I had to use a monopod or stand perfectly still to get the shot. I think we always forget that everything in photography is a bit of a compromise. There's still no perfect camera/lens/sensor or magical setting that will offer you everything. I own several Full Frame cameras and perhaps three APS-C camera bodies and I'm considering getting another. With shooting scenes on stage, I've had a lot of success with APS-C sensors because usually the subjects are lit, usually against a dark background. This was before DPAF. Raising the shutter speed to capture the action was also possible and I've been more than happy with the results... but I was using an f/2 lens which gave me more light to play with. Sensor Size, lens limitations and Aperture will all come into play when shooting unique or challenging scenes.

.

From Canon's Full Frame Vs APS-C White Paper.  This information is still relevant, regardless of improvements in recent sensor technology.
From Canon's Full Frame Vs APS-C White Paper. This information is still relevant, regardless of improvements in recent sensor technology.

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Canon themselves have a White Paper in circulation on the difference between their FF (Full Frame) and APS-C (crop) sensors. They make it clear that Full Frame has the better signal-to-noise ratio although I would also note that sensors have become far more capable and sensitive since that document was released. Modern sensors have numerous features in them that the Mirrorless camera processors can extrapolated data from. An unexpected observation (also confirmed by Canon) was that the cameras with high density sensors were producing less noise because it was being "averaged out over a larger number of pixel-sites". So some APS-C cameras with a lot of photosites were generating less noise due to the algorithms used.
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BENEFITS OF FULL FRAME:
* Better Signal-to-Noise ratio - resulting in better lowlight performance.
* Stronger Bokeh and subject separation.
* More reliable AF when tracking moving objects, especially in lower light.
* Better Dynamic Range.
* Full Lens aspect (projected image circle is not being cropped)
.
BENEFITS OF APS-C
* Used to be cheaper than Full Frame (not so much now)
* Less Depth Of Field (better for landscapes etc)
* Higher Contrast in bright light.
* Magnified image circle due to the crop.
* Usually a smaller body.
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Most mirrorless cameras depend on internal Noise Reduction to get by. Some brands (eg Sony) have been under fire for applying too much NR, causing actual critical details to disappear. With this in mind, it was found that the Canon cameras in the R-series (Mirrorless) had better performance sensors than those typically found in DSLR cameras. This usually includes Greater Dynamic Range and especially better noise control. Canon still notes that longer lenses with narrow aperture ranges will benefit from Full Frame sensors more than they will from APS-C. And, on top of this, when it comes to tracking moving subjects (eg birds in flight, moving vehicles etc), especially in lower that ideal lighting, the Full Frame cameras with larger pizels (lower megapixel count) will be notably more reliable when tracking the subjects than APS-C. This has been observed by both reviewers and users/consumers alike.
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6415170ac7994528a3b6c9e0cf6431b2.jpg

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APS-C is very good by today's standards on Mirrorless cameras - when compared with the same sized sensors from the last generation of DSLRs. But by that same reasoning, Full Frame is also vastly better in performance and so it has some very good capability when dealing with Low Light Scenes. The argument from the Canon White Paper still being relevant is that the Larger Pixel Sites on the Full Frame Sensor can capture more photons in less time and is therefore going to produce less noise due to better signal capture.
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APS-C is said to be better for landscapes (since the shallow-field effect is reduced on Crop Sensors), and for when a photographer might require more reach or even a smaller body to work with. The crop-factor means that the image circle projected onto the sensor is cropping out a portion of the outer scene and this gives the impression that the scene is magnified. On the other hand, a Full Frame sensor captures the maximum width of a scene that the fitted lens can supply. Those wanting to get more reach can use an Extender (if available for that lens) or they can use A.I. to enlarge the detail in an image, which works extremely well.
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Another thing that people often forget about is the difference in Bokeh. A Full Frame sensor will always produce stronger subject separation compared to smaller sensors, including APS-C. It's true that a person can back up with their APS-C camera and capture a very similar framing - but Full Frame sensors always produce a stronger visual result and this is even noticeable with lenses that don't have a lot of bokeh to begin with.
.
When I attend an indoor event at night or attempt to shoot a scene where I know the light is going to be challenging, I prefer to use a Full Frame sensor whenever possible and will combine it with a relatively fast lens. The difference is certainly on show. APS-C is still good enough that I can get away with it in many cases but not always. I've been able to capture some great scenes in the city at night with APS-C sensors as long as my subjects remained still. I've also been able to lock onto the eye of a bird at 600m and track it in daylight, or track it in near darkness (under moonlight after sunset) - which is something I couldn't likely achieve with a DSLR sensor/processor.
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Buy the sensor you need for the type of photography that you do. I do a LOT of handheld night photography so I have to use a Full Frame sensor for the best results. I prefer not to use a flash unless necessary so for indoor shooting the Full Frame sensors meet my needs. With Astrophotography there's benefits to both. I use Full Frame for wide scenes (Comets and the Milky Way) and I use APS-C when I need to zoom in tight on a celestial subject (the Moon or the Planets etc). When dealing with indoor lighting, it also helps to know if your subject will be moving in the scene. Anyone can stand still and take a clean picture in low light but if the subject is moving you'll need to crank up the shutter speed and that's when Noise becomes a genuine hindrance.
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** The Dual Pixel AF (DPAF) appears to support Full Frame a little more over APS-C. The differences are visible with performance, especially where tracking is involved. Much more-so when low-light is added to the scene.

** Noise Reduction software today is very, very good and can resolve images with greater clarity, sharpness and less 'grain' than ever before.


--
Regards,
Marco Nero.
 
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