A7CR - AF subject (animal) recognition settings?

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

The EVF continued to show the usual selected AF square. My understanding is that if the camera detects an eye, the EVF should display a green lock box on the eye it has detected. It didn't pick up the koala's eyes. I'm wondering if I had the settings wrong or incompletely set, or whether koalas' unusual profile, drab grey contrast and tiny eyes just don't make a good candidate for the recognition algorithm. The guy was mostly snoozing - they're nocturnal - but it didn't seem to work whether he had his eyes open or shut. The lens was the 70-200/4Gii with 1.4xTC - so @ 280mm FL. In the example below, the camera has focused on the koala's forearm below its eye, though the eye is visible. I think that was where the usual AF center box was still situated. Any thoughts?

I had more luck using MF with an old 300/4L, but I'd like to get the recognition feature working - my eyes are getting older.

Many thanks, Rod

View attachment 4f7c28d6e310454787596ec4cb560323.jpg

View attachment e706f5a854724dd4925d3c6dc2fe67a9.jpg
Same guy chilling out..... Adapted MF lens.

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

Click to expand...

RealWorldPhoto said:

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

Click to expand...

You probably have too high expectations for the animal recognition system. Here the koala looks just like a grey sack.

Of cause we could find other situations where AF did not hit perfect, but this doesn't prove that the system is fooled or failing - any subject recognition system tied to autofocus is just working within limitations.

What about using spot focus in situations like the one with the Koala?

Click to expand...

deednets said:

RealWorldPhoto said:

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

Click to expand...

You probably have too high expectations for the animal recognition system. Here the koala looks just like a grey sack.

Of cause we could find other situations where AF did not hit perfect, but this doesn't prove that the system is fooled or failing - any subject recognition system tied to autofocus is just working within limitations.

What about using spot focus in situations like the one with the Koala?

Click to expand...

Does spot focusing actually work with eye AF?? Like looking for an eye within that spot? Dunno.

My A7RV has a similar AF system compared with Rod's A7CR so any expectations set at "high" should be justified, e.g. when I shoot a variety of dogs where black labs with black eyes after dark are a piece of cake, I can't see how a no-moving (default speed!!!) Koala should be such a challenge?

Click to expand...

deednets said:

Hi Rod, maybe a silly question to ask, but since you didn't mention it: what AF area did you use here? E.g. wide? The eye AF will only work within that pre-selected area. Since this works in such a mostly flawless way, I have never dabbled with any override by function button. This works on all sorts of animals I have tried this on, but your koala does have some rather tiny eyes, so, what do I know?

Whenever I take dog pics, I typically use an area, pre-selected on the left, as I am right eye dominant as I find the camera has to process less data than in wide mode where the whole frame area is looking for eyes.

Also: when animals are asleep, eyes closed, your camera should identify their faces or heads in general. Then look for an eye within the head. Since your chill mate isn't really sports photography material, you may want to use an area less than the whole frame, but you may have already done that, in which case I don't know. My A7RV works well even on running black labradors after dark, seriously, and your A7CR should be similar. Dunno...

Deed

Click to expand...

RealWorldPhoto said:

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

Click to expand...

You probably have too high expectations for the animal recognition system. Here the koala looks just like a grey sack.

Of cause we could find other situations where AF did not hit perfect, but this doesn't prove that the system is fooled or failing - any subject recognition system tied to autofocus is just working within limitations.

What about using spot focus in situations like the one with the Koala?

Click to expand...

RealWorldPhoto said:

deednets said:

RealWorldPhoto said:

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

Click to expand...

You probably have too high expectations for the animal recognition system. Here the koala looks just like a grey sack.

Of cause we could find other situations where AF did not hit perfect, but this doesn't prove that the system is fooled or failing - any subject recognition system tied to autofocus is just working within limitations.

What about using spot focus in situations like the one with the Koala?

Click to expand...

Does spot focusing actually work with eye AF?? Like looking for an eye within that spot? Dunno.

My A7RV has a similar AF system compared with Rod's A7CR so any expectations set at "high" should be justified, e.g. when I shoot a variety of dogs where black labs with black eyes after dark are a piece of cake, I can't see how a no-moving (default speed!!!) Koala should be such a challenge?

Click to expand...

Why should it? Eye AF is to recognise eyes within the frame, and you can combine this with face recognition, say, for the bride and the groom when documenting a wedding.

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

Hi Deed,

Thanks. From what you've written I suspect I need to know more about how it works...... I followed an online instruction and turned on subject recognition and type. It didn't mention an interrelationship with the AF area. It sounds like there is a clear relationship - you've written that it only identifies eyes within a pre-selected AF area.

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

deednets said:

Hi Rod, maybe a silly question to ask, but since you didn't mention it: what AF area did you use here? E.g. wide? The eye AF will only work within that pre-selected area. Since this works in such a mostly flawless way, I have never dabbled with any override by function button. This works on all sorts of animals I have tried this on, but your koala does have some rather tiny eyes, so, what do I know?

Whenever I take dog pics, I typically use an area, pre-selected on the left, as I am right eye dominant as I find the camera has to process less data than in wide mode where the whole frame area is looking for eyes.

Also: when animals are asleep, eyes closed, your camera should identify their faces or heads in general. Then look for an eye within the head. Since your chill mate isn't really sports photography material, you may want to use an area less than the whole frame, but you may have already done that, in which case I don't know. My A7RV works well even on running black labradors after dark, seriously, and your A7CR should be similar. Dunno...

Deed

Click to expand...

Hi Deed,

Thanks. From what you've written I suspect I need to know more about how it works...... I followed an online instruction and turned on subject recognition and type. It didn't mention an interrelationship with the AF area. It sounds like there is a clear relationship - you've written that it only identifies eyes within a pre-selected AF area.

I had the default small area set for AF and was using the mode where you can move it with the C-Series D-pad (that works but not as well as a joystick). I guess I was expecting subject recognition to somehow work in tandem with the other box. Dunno. Sometimes I saw a fine-lined green box momentarily frame the koala's whole head outside the AF area, but there was no identification of eyes or anything indicating a lock-on.

I suspect, as is often the case, that my lack of knowledge is the key problem here. The koala's odd profile and small eyes might also have an impact, but we'll see. Leave it with me - I'll do some reading and experimenting, and use my dog as a more accessible subject. A man could get a very stiff neck trying to focus on koalas. I'll report back.....

Thanks again.

Cheers, Rod

Click to expand...

lehill said:

Rod McD said:

Hi Deed,

Thanks. From what you've written I suspect I need to know more about how it works...... I followed an online instruction and turned on subject recognition and type. It didn't mention an interrelationship with the AF area. It sounds like there is a clear relationship - you've written that it only identifies eyes within a pre-selected AF area.

Click to expand...

That's 99% correct. The user manual has this to say about Subject Recognition in AF:

"On: Focuses on a subject with priority if it has been recognized inside or around the designated focus area."

Compared to humans, the current state-of-the-art AI subject recognition is still primitive. My A7R V didn't recognize the koala in your photo, but it had no problem focusing on the eyes of many other "easy" koala photos (example from Wikipedia - David Iliff).

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

Hi,

I decided to try AF with animal recognition on my A7CR today. I set Subject Recognition to 'on' and type 'animal'. It wasn't successful with the koala that lives in my back yard tree.

The EVF continued to show the usual selected AF square. My understanding is that if the camera detects an eye, the EVF should display a green lock box on the eye it has detected. It didn't pick up the koala's eyes. I'm wondering if I had the settings wrong or incompletely set, or whether koalas' unusual profile, drab grey contrast and tiny eyes just don't make a good candidate for the recognition algorithm. The guy was mostly snoozing - they're nocturnal - but it didn't seem to work whether he had his eyes open or shut. The lens was the 70-200/4Gii with 1.4xTC - so @ 280mm FL. In the example below, the camera has focused on the koala's forearm below its eye, though the eye is visible. I think that was where the usual AF center box was still situated. Any thoughts?

I had more luck using MF with an old 300/4L, but I'd like to get the recognition feature working - my eyes are getting older.

Many thanks, Rod

View attachment 4f7c28d6e310454787596ec4cb560323.jpg

View attachment e706f5a854724dd4925d3c6dc2fe67a9.jpg
Same guy chilling out..... Adapted MF lens.

Click to expand...

AlephNull said:

You definitely can use smaller focus areas, all the way down to XS spot on the A9III and A1 II. NOTE: the eye AF will finds eyes outside the selected spot - I think it uses the spot to locate the animal, then looks for eyes on the animal. I used to think I had to get the eye into the focus area, but that's not true.

Click to expand...

AlephNull said:

I have exercised many versions of Sony animal eye AF on a variety of koalas. Starting with with the Sony A7RIV, and going through the A1, A7RV, A9III, and A1 II.

All of them worked, but the older ones weren't great.

The current versions (A7RV and above) are good at spotting koala eyes when they are open, even if they are in some amount of shade. They can have a bit more trouble if the koala's eyes are closed (but fortunately, that is only likely to be 16-20 hours a day... :-D ) - in brighter light it can find even closed eyes, but heavy shade can be a problem.

You definitely can use smaller focus areas, all the way down to XS spot on the A9III and A1 II. NOTE: the eye AF will finds eyes outside the selected spot - I think it uses the spot to locate the animal, then looks for eyes on the animal. I used to think I had to get the eye into the focus area, but that's not true.

Click to expand...

deednets said:

AlephNull said:

You definitely can use smaller focus areas, all the way down to XS spot on the A9III and A1 II. NOTE: the eye AF will finds eyes outside the selected spot - I think it uses the spot to locate the animal, then looks for eyes on the animal. I used to think I had to get the eye into the focus area, but that's not true.

Click to expand...

This might need some closer inspection as I just tried human eye AF with the zone on the left and my unwilling partner on the right, outside the zone and the eye AF only picked her up when she was in the "zone" (really, REALLY, no pun intended!!!)

Tried this over and over now, but when her eye is outside the area, it isn't been detected. No issues as soon as I move the zone.

Are you sure that the way you describe it is how this works?? My A7RV simply doesn't "see" any eyes outside the area ...

Dunno what to say?

Deed

Click to expand...

Rod McD said:

AlephNull said:

I have exercised many versions of Sony animal eye AF on a variety of koalas. Starting with with the Sony A7RIV, and going through the A1, A7RV, A9III, and A1 II.

All of them worked, but the older ones weren't great.

The current versions (A7RV and above) are good at spotting koala eyes when they are open, even if they are in some amount of shade. They can have a bit more trouble if the koala's eyes are closed (but fortunately, that is only likely to be 16-20 hours a day... :-D ) - in brighter light it can find even closed eyes, but heavy shade can be a problem.

You definitely can use smaller focus areas, all the way down to XS spot on the A9III and A1 II. NOTE: the eye AF will finds eyes outside the selected spot - I think it uses the spot to locate the animal, then looks for eyes on the animal. I used to think I had to get the eye into the focus area, but that's not true.

Click to expand...

Hi Aleph,

Thanks. Your info differs a bit from Deed's and from Sony's in the A7CR online help manual which says "Focuses on a subject with priority if it has been recognized inside or around the designated focus area." You may have experience in which it has focused outside the area. but that then doesn't then explain why my A7CR didn't detect this particular Koala's eyes (which were outside the AF area). He was in shade, but the light was still quite strong in the mid afternoon.

As I said earlier, leave it with me and I'll do some experimenting.....

Thanks again, Rod

Click to expand...

deednets said:

Rod McD said:

AlephNull said:

I have exercised many versions of Sony animal eye AF on a variety of koalas. Starting with with the Sony A7RIV, and going through the A1, A7RV, A9III, and A1 II.

All of them worked, but the older ones weren't great.

The current versions (A7RV and above) are good at spotting koala eyes when they are open, even if they are in some amount of shade. They can have a bit more trouble if the koala's eyes are closed (but fortunately, that is only likely to be 16-20 hours a day... :-D ) - in brighter light it can find even closed eyes, but heavy shade can be a problem.

You definitely can use smaller focus areas, all the way down to XS spot on the A9III and A1 II. NOTE: the eye AF will finds eyes outside the selected spot - I think it uses the spot to locate the animal, then looks for eyes on the animal. I used to think I had to get the eye into the focus area, but that's not true.

Click to expand...

Hi Aleph,

Thanks. Your info differs a bit from Deed's and from Sony's in the A7CR online help manual which says "Focuses on a subject with priority if it has been recognized inside or around the designated focus area." You may have experience in which it has focused outside the area. but that then doesn't then explain why my A7CR didn't detect this particular Koala's eyes (which were outside the AF area). He was in shade, but the light was still quite strong in the mid afternoon.

As I said earlier, leave it with me and I'll do some experimenting.....

Thanks again, Rod

Click to expand...

Hi Rod, how did you get on in the end? Any luck?

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