Help with understanding what cinema camera to invest in

Andrew S10 said:

Research thoroughly, as there are many marketing lies that will steer you in the wrong direction, e.g. Nikon cameras that shoot RAW video use line skipping down scaling, and don't yield any better dynamic range than the ultra compressed codec, just better color.

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Andrew S10 said:

You might find this DVXUser thread useful: https://www.dvxuser.com/threads/need-camera-advice.5712359/

What is your role in the production, camera operator, director, director of photography (in charge of lighting design, the gaffer's crew sets up the lights)?

Your current 5D records video, what areas is it lacking that you hope to improve with a new camera?

The obvious deficiencies are 1.74x crop recording 4K, high data rate inefficient codec, and paid C-Log upgrade, although you can enable C-Log yourself according to this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/canon/comments/q2spq0/c_log_on_5d_mark_iv

You may consider getting a mirrorless camera for your normal work and renting a cinema camera for the horror movie, or hiring a DP who brings their own camera package.

A Canon R5C would be a logical upgrade, and you could use it as a B or C camera if you decide to get a true cinema camera as your A cam.

You might want to consider lens options and pick a camera that works with those lenses.

To help narrow down the camera options, make a list of what features you need/want, e.g. RAW, genlock timecode, HD-SDI G3 ports, built-in ND filters, etc.

Properly lighting the set is more important that what camera you choose. All brand have improved in quality and somewhat plateaued, so you're the problem if the footage looks bad, not the camera.

The better the usable dynamic range, the less powerful lights you need. Most companies advertise their cameras as having 2-3 more stops of dynamic range than they actually have, but when Arri claims 14 stops, you get at least 14 stops.

Cameras like the Arri 65 are only sold to rental houses, and their other cameras are intended for rental houses more than owner operators.

Cinematographers own Arris the same way photographers own $40k Hasselblads, they've earned a professional reputation and market demand to charge a rate that allows them to afford top end equipment.

The Arri LF is about the same price the Sony CineAlta cameras were 20 years ago, also bear in mind that it's more expensive to manufacture in Germany than Asia, but Arri knows they can charge a premium because they have the best engineering, thermal management, quality control, and international support. Time is money on a movie set, and an Arri rental is a trivial expense in the grand scheme of many productions.

Research thoroughly, as there are many marketing lies that will steer you in the wrong direction, e.g. Nikon cameras that shoot RAW video use line skipping down scaling, and don't yield any better dynamic range than the ultra compressed codec, just better color.

Consider getting two of the same camera model so that you can shoot cross coverage of dialogue and reduce the number of takes to speed up production.

A camera is just one piece of the puzzle, you also need support gear like a tripod with a fluid head, possibly a fisher dolly or Steadicam, lights, light modifiers, C-stand, audio recorder, boom pole, microphones, etc.

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ainsoph said:

That said, what do people recommend? The C70 is in my price range. Am I right in thinking I can make something look like an actual cinematic movie with it? Considering the right lens, color grading, etc?

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uncle dunc said:

I would prioritize low rolling shutter, and 10bit recording.

Before embarking on the camera upgrade, I would storyboard the movie, or at least a variety of scenes, to help determine what lenses you'll need, and whether or not you'll need to pull focus to adapt to which character is talking (hard to do that with autofocus unless you can touch focus with a smooth transition) and whether or not you'll need a motorized gimbal or other stabilizer gear, since these factors could sway your camera and lens choice one way or the other.

You'll also need to figure out what gear you'll need for audio. Will you be able to rig up remote mics, or will you need a boom operator? Will you be shooting using natural light or will you need lighting? Will you need to pay actors? Do you have a composer lined up for music? Will you need to add sound effects? Will you be able to simulate the gore that generally accompanies horror films?
As you can see, the camera is just one piece of a very large - and expensive - puzzle. The biggest piece of the puzzle is the story. If it's compelling, you can shoot it on anything. If it's not, you could shoot it on an Arri and still watch it bomb.

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Joe Lynch said:

I'm an amateur who has shot a lot of video with cameras from tiny sensor consumer grade camcorders to a Sony A1 and Lumix S5iiX's. My opinion--the C70 is a good choice, but there is a learning curve I suggest before buying one...

Get and read Stockman's book mentioned above. Start off with some of the exercises in his book, using equipment you already have.

Next, shoot some video with your 5Div of just one typical scene you envision. Then process it in Resolve or whatever you have. See what changes are needed to the sound and lighting. Shoot it again. Produce the video again. Make changes that you think are needed. Shoot it again. Then try a different scene. If the first was indoors, go outside for the next one, or shoot a night scene. Repeat.

One's whole mindset changes from stills when shooting video along with sound. My bet is that you will wind up spending more time controlling the lighting and getting good sound than you will fiddling with the camera.

When you conclude you need the second camera, get the C70 or some other Canon mirrorless camera that you can also use in your still photography work, perhaps.

I've never shot a horror film, but I've shot some horrible quality video with bad sound. Less often now.

Joe L

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Off The Mark said:

ainsoph said:

That said, what do people recommend? The C70 is in my price range. Am I right in thinking I can make something look like an actual cinematic movie with it? Considering the right lens, color grading, etc?

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No. No camera and lens can do that by itself.

It takes experience shooting film / video to do that (experience shooting stills only covers about 20% of what experience shooting film or video would cover).

It takes great quality makeup and clothing

it takes great quality set design

it takes great quality acting

it take great quality directing

it takes great quality dialogue

it takes great quality lighting

it takes great quality audio

it take great quality post production (grading, editing, vfx).

It takes a LOT OF TIME in preproduction.

I am sure the C70 is a wonderful camera. But have you started budgeting for some C Stands (about $250 each), Aputure 600d lights (about $1,100 each), 40 X 40 floppies (about $175 each) a combo stand (about $375), a decent shotgun mic (about $375 for a Deity S Mi 3), a decent boom pole (about $200), maybe an 8-foot scrim (about $300, not including the stands), a production cart (anywhere from $300 to $2000), a craft table, catering, insurance, generators to power your lights outdoors???

Now, if all you want is to make cinematic B-Roll of brewing coffee in your kitchen, then that can be done for a lot less. but if you want to make an actual movie, then the cost of the camera is pretty insiginficant compared to the cost of all the other things that go in to it.

You might be interested in watching this video, done by a youtuber who makes horror films on a microbudget (in terms of production, a microbudget is around $100K).

He actually has several videos on the whole production process, and I encourage you to watch them for spending lavish sums on equipment.

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Off The Mark said:

So here is a chart showing the most popular cameras used to shoot entries to Sundance film festival in 2024. I don't think this means you HAVE to shot on either an Arri or a Sony venice. Just that the productions that have enough money to make good independent narrative films generally have enough money to get their hands on an Arri or a Venice (maybe 2025 will see a lot of people shooting on a Sony Burano??).



Again, I am sure that a C70 is a very good camera. Heck, I would think about buying one since they sell used on MPB for $3,500 which is about $1K off what they sell for new. However... I am so invested in L Mount that I would probably stick with Panasonic / BlackMagic Design.

By the way: In late May of 2024, my 18-year-old son had his film selected for a local student film festival. He didn't even find out about the festival until three days before the submission deadline. He and a friend wrote, shot, and edited the film (nearly 10-minutes long) in two-and-a-half-days. Some Films submitted by other students, which had been in the works for months and had actual official backing from the schools they went to didn't make the cut. And also he was a day late to submit, but they liked the film enough to accept it over others that had been submitted on time.

He shot it on an m43 camera, the Olympus E-M1 MK II with the cheapo kit lens (they go for about $85 on ebay). He had one yongnuo panel light, a light stand, a Tascam DR-10L lav mic + recorder, and one camera battery, and the batteres for BOTH the light and the camera died and he ad to wait around while recharging them.

So all I am saying is start out small, think about what is going to be the best use of your money, and focus on your script, actors, lighting, audio, stabilization, etc

And be prepared to spend stupid amounts of money on computer parts, namely GPUs and storage. Maybe the newer Mac's are the way to go???

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ainsoph said:

Ok so I've got the bug after renting a Sony FX3 last year. I just would like to make a horror movie. That's very pretty. But I also have other purposes. I'm a fashio photographer, and would like to start producing better quality video along with all that. I have a pretty firm grip on the still image side of things. Products, lighting, etc.

However. I'm looking to invest in a proper cinema camera. I've limited myself to Netflix approved for some reason, though not sure if I should. My main question is in understand pricing of this stuff in general.

I've almost nearly decided on the Canon C70. I've ruled out Sony's FX3 and FX6 for reasons. I'd also just like to stay with canon. Now, these three things are generally in the same price range. However, after researching more tonight, I've learned many shows and movies use BlackMagic cameras. Something I've heard of but never experienced. After a quick Google, these seem cheaper, yet more widely used for high end projects. I do not understand. Further confusing my brain is the Arri Alexa. Now, in my mind, this camera is absolutely insanely priced, and virtually unattainable by an individual, yes? Barring those with 100k laying around.

I'm past the argument of "it's not the hardware, it's the user." I'm well aware and preach this myself. However, there DOES come a time where the skill outmatches the hardware, and I just like to plan ahead.

That said, what do people recommend? The C70 is in my price range. Am I right in thinking I can make something look like an actual cinematic movie with it? Considering the right lens, color grading, etc?

If I'm going to go down this route, am I better off leaning another direction? Is there some way that people own Arri stuff that I don't understand? I understand the technical use of things. I DON'T understand the market, or what exactly will help me get the result I'd want.

For reference, I use a Canon 5D Mar IV, 2.8 L, and Profoto strobes. I've gotten to a point where I'm incredibly confident in the quality I produce, and am just looking to get similar results in the video world.

*Edit.* Another random question that may factor in. I'm highly versatile in Photoshop. So much so that I shoot KNOWING the capability of the raw image I'll get. I've played around very little with Sony's Slog. It's not QUITE as versatile as what you can do with a raw image. But IS it? Is it camera dependant? Would a certain cinmena camera allow me more room in post than others? I understand the C70 has a wider dynamic range than others in it's class, that being the main reason I'm considering it.

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John Brawley said:

Blackmagic are popular because they do have RAW workflows and better codec options that are more open. But they don't have things like IBIS or AF which you also don't see on most true cinema cameras. Some are even Netflix approved.

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