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Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement HEIF image

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Sittatunga said:
Victor Engel said:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
Remeber when there was GIF but not JPEG?
Click to expand...
I remember those heady five years from 1987 to 1992 very well and still make the occasional GIF despite the 256 colour palette.

The trouble with HEIF is that the majority of laptops and desktops don't support it. You can't even upload HEIF to dpreview forums. I lost interest in the format when I tried looking at an HEIF only to find out that I would have to pay for a codec to do so. It may be a standard for macOS (on ⅐th of all laptops and desktops) but it's not standard on any version of Windows (nearly ¾ of all laptops and desktops). Sharing HEIFs is like sharing .pages files instead of .doc or PDF files; it doesn't work for the vast majority of computer users.
Click to expand...
Why HEIF is not supported by vast majority of computer?

It's 2024. Now photography technology is about ProRes raw, 120FPS, H265, real time LUT, global shutter, AI subject detection, why the whole world still uses 8 bit Jpeg?
 
:-)
 
Hans Z said:
Victor Engel said:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
Remeber when there was GIF but not JPEG?
Click to expand...
That was a while ago, in 1994 Netscape started supporting JPEG. Not sure if the first versions of Photoshop supported JPEG.
Click to expand...
It did not. Photoshop is older than JPEG. They used TIFF. In those days, most people who had computers had monitors/display cards that could only display 8 bits per pixel, hence the popularity of web-safe color palettes to prevent dithering.
 
GutiWong said:
Sittatunga said:
Victor Engel said:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
Remeber when there was GIF but not JPEG?
Click to expand...
I remember those heady five years from 1987 to 1992 very well and still make the occasional GIF despite the 256 colour palette.

The trouble with HEIF is that the majority of laptops and desktops don't support it. You can't even upload HEIF to dpreview forums. I lost interest in the format when I tried looking at an HEIF only to find out that I would have to pay for a codec to do so. It may be a standard for macOS (on ⅐th of all laptops and desktops) but it's not standard on any version of Windows (nearly ¾ of all laptops and desktops). Sharing HEIFs is like sharing .pages files instead of .doc or PDF files; it doesn't work for the vast majority of computer users.
Click to expand...
Why HEIF is not supported by vast majority of computer?

It's 2024. Now photography technology is about ProRes raw, 120FPS, H265, real time LUT, global shutter, AI subject detection, why the whole world still uses 8 bit Jpeg?
Click to expand...
H265 and HEIF use the same compression techniques, from what I understand.
 
ishwanu said:
The basic reason is cost.

There are licensing fees involved.
Click to expand...
HEIF is an open container format. It's only the contents that could have licensing fees involved.
ishwanu said:
The required changes to code and menus and quality control add more costs.

Camera manufacturers know that the only users who directly benefit from HEIC/HEIF native output are those who use files coming straight out of the camera, so they have to decide if there are enough of them to matter.

Manufacturers are probably weighing these factors and watching for interest in the new format to reach a point where adding it is worth the cost and effort. Not many have decided that it is.
Click to expand...
 
Victor Engel said:
ishwanu said:
The basic reason is cost.

There are licensing fees involved.
Click to expand...
HEIF is an open container format. It's only the contents that could have licensing fees involved.
Click to expand...
I don't think the 'container' provides the expected benefits of HEIC/HEIF unless the contents have been generated using encoding methods that probably require licensing. Do you think it does? (I do know that Microsoft required me to pay 99 cents to allow Windows 10 to simply display the contents.)
Victor Engel said:
Victor Engel said:
The required changes to code and menus and quality control add more costs.

Camera manufacturers know that the only users who directly benefit from HEIC/HEIF native output are those who use files coming straight out of the camera, so they have to decide if there are enough of them to matter.

Manufacturers are probably weighing these factors and watching for interest in the new format to reach a point where adding it is worth the cost and effort. Not many have decided that it is.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
John Crowe said:
It's a horrible format, so let's hope not.

In one of my many silly Samsung upgrades it reset my default from jpeg to heif. It was awful and it took me quite awhile to find the problem and reset it.
Click to expand...
“Oh my Lord, it’s something new! Quick, get it away from me!!”

John, this is the nature of new things.

LCD panels now support 10-bit color, but JPEG cannot. That is why HEIF is so much better. We just need time for Microsoft and the others to come up to speed on it.
 
MarshallG said:
John Crowe said:
It's a horrible format, so let's hope not.

In one of my many silly Samsung upgrades it reset my default from jpeg to heif. It was awful and it took me quite awhile to find the problem and reset it.
Click to expand...
“Oh my Lord, it’s something new! Quick, get it away from me!!”

John, this is the nature of new things.

LCD panels now support 10-bit color, but JPEG cannot. That is why HEIF is so much better. We just need time for Microsoft and the others to come up to speed on it.
Click to expand...
I'm sure they will the instant they don't have to pay licensing fees. The situation between the formats is a bit like the Betamax versus VHS struggle except that JPEG has had a 13 year start on HEIF and has already seen off JPEG 2000.
 
Last edited:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
a lot of work goes into making jpg from camera internal RAW into good quality jpg

why redo all that work for an unknown image format (HEIF) without any compelling market reason?

plus, apparently HEIF is an IP nightmare, involving licensing (fees, "terms and conditions")

note that the "terms and conditions" can change. Even dramatically and with not much notice

as we've seen many times, the T&S can be enforced in ways nobody realizes, until it happens.

if a company doesn't like the new T&S not much they can do, so the HEIF code will be yanked or de-activated and removed from their code base
 
Victor Engel said:
ishwanu said:
The basic reason is cost.

There are licensing fees involved.
Click to expand...
HEIF is an open container format. It's only the contents that could have licensing fees involved.
Victor Engel said:
The required changes to code and menus and quality control add more costs.

Camera manufacturers know that the only users who directly benefit from HEIC/HEIF native output are those who use files coming straight out of the camera, so they have to decide if there are enough of them to matter.

Manufacturers are probably weighing these factors and watching for interest in the new format to reach a point where adding it is worth the cost and effort. Not many have decided that it is.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to be funny here, but that means a company could wrap HEIF around a jpg image and claim it's compatible?
 
I shoot almost all in raw and I think your comment brings up an even more important point than the OP. Most post processing software still do not support exporting raw files as HEIF/HEIC. I wish they did because I view all my photos now on HDR TVs and monitors. I think it is just a matter of time though and all of the raw editors eventually will support it in the next couple of years. I currently have half a dozen different raw converters on my HD and when I upgrade to the latest editions in the next two years, my No. 1 criterion will be support for exporting raw to HEIF/HEIC.
 
GutiWong said:
Sittatunga said:
Victor Engel said:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
Remeber when there was GIF but not JPEG?
Click to expand...
I remember those heady five years from 1987 to 1992 very well and still make the occasional GIF despite the 256 colour palette.

The trouble with HEIF is that the majority of laptops and desktops don't support it. You can't even upload HEIF to dpreview forums. I lost interest in the format when I tried looking at an HEIF only to find out that I would have to pay for a codec to do so. It may be a standard for macOS (on ⅐th of all laptops and desktops) but it's not standard on any version of Windows (nearly ¾ of all laptops and desktops). Sharing HEIFs is like sharing .pages files instead of .doc or PDF files; it doesn't work for the vast majority of computer users.
Click to expand...
Why HEIF is not supported by vast majority of computer?
Click to expand...
Well, actually, all major web browsers support HEIF files containing the royalty free AVIF image format. It's the HEIF files based on the HEIC format that pose an issue.

AVIF is supported on OS level in Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and many Linux dustributions. It's also supported by Adobe Lightroom and a bunch of open source image editors.

It's 2024, we shouldn't be held hostage to closed image formats, yet some devices still produce HEIC format HEIF files incompatible with the computers and phones we all have.
 
Victor Engel said:
John Crowe said:
That is not a trivial problem.
Click to expand...
Sure, but you made it sound like there was some problem with the format itself. I was curious what that might be. HEIF can produce higher quality images in the same amount of space because of its superior format.
Click to expand...
wouldn't the expense then be more processing?

TAANSTAAFL
 
It will produce in camera HEIF. The weird thing is newer bodies do not.
 
This is a sample photo in HEIF

x

x

x

x

The reason you don't see it is because I cannot upload it here.

If my Photoshop 6 could read the file , I could transcode it but it cannot..

Does the above help ?
 
Last edited:
Victor Engel said:
Hans Z said:
Victor Engel said:
tbcass said:
GutiWong said:
HEIF image is excellent in image quality (4:4:2 10 bit) and compact file size. Nowadays, most of the smartphone and Mac does support it. More TV, computer monitor do support 10bit HDR.

Why some camera manufacturers still haven't implement it?
Click to expand...
I suspect it's because a lot of software is incompatible with the format while JPEG is compatible with everything.
Click to expand...
Remeber when there was GIF but not JPEG?
Click to expand...
That was a while ago, in 1994 Netscape started supporting JPEG. Not sure if the first versions of Photoshop supported JPEG.
Click to expand...
It did not. Photoshop is older than JPEG. They used TIFF. In those days, most people who had computers had monitors/display cards that could only display 8 bits per pixel, hence the popularity of web-safe color palettes to prevent dithering.
Click to expand...
I remember when I in 1993 worked with Photoshop and created adaptive 256 color palettes to be able to display the images and video correctly on our color laptops for the Authorware multimedia presentations that I made for the medical staff. Did not develop for Netscape but I noted now in the history descriptions that Netscape supported JPEG in 1994.
 
There is something new, that needs less storage and offers significantly higher quality, but during transition times some adaptation problems occur? What a nightmare!
 
foot said:
note that the "terms and conditions" can change. Even dramatically and with not much notice

as we've seen many times, the T&S can be enforced in ways nobody realizes, until it happens.

if a company doesn't like the new T&S not much they can do, so the HEIF code will be yanked or de-activated and removed from their code base
Click to expand...
Absolutely especially when a controlling company is Apple. They have a habit of milking requirements to their advantage.

Not exactly the same thing but look at the Patreon scandal. Apple has suddenly levied a surcharge of 30% (!!!!) to any Patreon subscriptions done with the Apple app on ios. That is absurd charge against online creators and others attempts to make a living. Notice that other 'big corporations' are not doing this.
 
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