How much bigger is 33x44mm MF than FF?

I used to have a 60 inch TV. Now I have a 77-inch TV. Isn’t that about an increase of about 28% diagonally? Yet, the difference when viewing a movie is large and obvious, not just to me but to everyone who enters the room.

Yet the math shows it be a small change.

—Darin
 
I used to have a 60 inch TV. Now I have a 77-inch TV. Isn’t that about an increase of about 28% diagonally? Yet, the difference when viewing a movie is large and obvious, not just to me but to everyone who enters the room.
Yet the math shows it be a small change.
The sizing convention for TVs seems to work pretty well for people, doesn’t it?

It is the same as the approach Jim outlined for sensors.

The math seems about right to me - between 1/4 and a 1/3 larger.
 
Hi,

Chop the ends off the 3:2 imaging chip so it is now 4:3. Then recalculate the area. That'll make it larger!

This public service message has been brought to you by the Bureau Of Meaningless Statistics.

This now concludes our broadcast day.



5800dc03f2184a8e85cfd5e1a9df4886.jpg

Stan

--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
I love the Sunday Salon topics. Whoops, it's not Sunday yet. I love the Medium Format Salon topics.
 
Last edited:
Whew!! I'm not sure why I read all these threads, but I think I could now use a drink, and I don't even drink. This is a really passionate group, here on Medium Format Talk! :) :)

--
Jeff
Florida, USA
http://www.jefftitteringtonphoto.com
 
Last edited:
Whew!! I'm not sure why I read all these threads, but I think I could now use a drink, and I don't even drink. This is a really passionate group, here on Medium Format Talk! :) :)
 
It works because its what we know but it has come about purely because TV screens used to be round and were meaured across the diameter. When the screen developed corners, they carried on measuring across the diagonal. In fact it isn't that effcient 'cos it doesn't give us any idea of aspect ratio. I still measure across the width to see if I have room for a bigger screen in the corner.

I used to have a 60 inch TV. Now I have a 77-inch TV. Isn’t that about an increase of about 28% diagonally? Yet, the difference when viewing a movie is large and obvious, not just to me but to everyone who enters the room.

Yet the math shows it be a small change.
The sizing convention for TVs seems to work pretty well for people, doesn’t it?

It is the same as the approach Jim outlined for sensors.

The math seems about right to me - between 1/4 and a 1/3 larger.
 
I think its fair to say that, if I was talking about my sensor and said,"my 43.3 mm sensor is fantastic" no one apart from you Jim" would know I was on about the diagonal measurement of a FF 36x24 sensor. A diagonal measurement also fails to inform us of the aspect ratio, a very important piece of information for most photographers.

There is no point in changing the "metric" unless it improves our understanding of the information.

I think it is reasonable to talk about "the area" of a sensor as it is this area we try to fill when taking a photograph.

Back in the day, when talk of exposure was the important topic, fields with rain falling on them and how bigger fields collected more rain and if rain was photons it means a bigger sensor collects more photons and more photons mean more light and more light means...............

I assume those MF fields collected 70% more rain than those little FF fields.

I can see a diiference if I compare my Hasselblad shot photograph with my FF leica or Canon or my APS-c Fuji XT-5. That is good enough for me. 70%. 28% better, no idea. It just doesn't matter.

When digital photography took off the camera manufacturers were constrained and impeded by the thought that we, the enthusiast photographers, owned lenses which would need to be usable with the digital sensor. This meant the 24x36mm, 35mm, miniature film size, now known as "full frame", became the benchmark size.

The attempt by some manufacturers to re-introduce a medium format digital sensor should be applauded and 44x33mm seems to have become the accepted benchmark for MF. Its increase in size,over and above FF, is irrelevant its benifets are visually apparent.

Maybe we should dump FF and introduce a 33x25mm sensor as the next size down. Then we can say, “twice as big”.
If you were selling floor space I would bet a room 43ft by 33ft would cost approx 70% more than one 36ft by 24 ft..
Possibly true, but not relevant here. We're not talking about the cost to manufacture a sensor.
A Hasselblad sensor is bigger than a full frame sensor,
That is not in question.
does it really matter what facts we bend to define this?
Are you saying that metrics don't matter? I've seen projects fail completely because the wrong metric was optimized.
It doesn’t matter. We all agree the larger sensor provides the means to produce a better photograph and this is not changed by deciding or changing which size measurement is used.
But the difference in size is important. Would a 37x25mm sensor provide a meaningful advantage over a FF one? I think not. Using the right size metrics, many of the improvements can be quantified.
 
Last edited:
This discussion is making me hungry!

Should I eat a 12" sub, which is twice as large as a 6" sub; or should I go for a 12" pizza, which is four times as large as a 6" pizza?
 
How is 33x44 "twice as big" as 33x25?

It would have to be 33x22...
 
It works because its what we know but it has come about purely because TV screens used to be round and were meaured across the diameter. When the screen developed corners, they carried on measuring across the diagonal
Interesting idea - do you have a source for it? It smells very apocryphal.

The obvious way to measure a circular TV would be on the horizontal, so why don’t we measure TVs that way? I am guessing it’s because the diagonal is longer - marketing departments?
Doppler9000, post: 67873977, member: 1543623"]
darinb, post: 67873977, member: 1543623"]
I used to have a 60 inch TV. Now I have a 77-inch TV. Isn’t that about an increase of about 28% diagonally? Yet, the difference when viewing a movie is large and obvious, not just to me but to everyone who enters the room.

Yet the math shows it be a small change.
The sizing convention for TVs seems to work pretty well for people, doesn’t it?

It is the same as the approach Jim outlined for sensors.

The math seems about right to me - between 1/4 and a 1/3 larger.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
 
It works because its what we know but it has come about purely because TV screens used to be round and were meaured across the diameter. When the screen developed corners, they carried on measuring across the diagonal
Interesting idea - do you have a source for it? It smells very apocryphal.

The obvious way to measure a circular TV would be on the horizontal, so why don’t we measure TVs that way? I am guessing it’s because the diagonal is longer - marketing departments?
Doppler9000, post: 67874216, member: 792855"]
darinb, post: 67874216, member: 792855"]
I used to have a 60 inch TV. Now I have a 77-inch TV. Isn’t that about an increase of about 28% diagonally? Yet, the difference when viewing a movie is large and obvious, not just to me but to everyone who enters the room.

Yet the math shows it be a small change.
The sizing convention for TVs seems to work pretty well for people, doesn’t it?

It is the same as the approach Jim outlined for sensors.

The math seems about right to me - between 1/4 and a 1/3 larger.
[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty old but I don’t remember round TVs . I do remember them having rounded corners though. :)
 
I think its fair to say that, if I was talking about my sensor and said,"my 43.3 mm sensor is fantastic" no one apart from you Jim" would know I was on about the diagonal measurement of a FF 36x24 sensor. A diagonal measurement also fails to inform us of the aspect ratio, a very important piece of information for most photographers.

There is no point in changing the "metric" unless it improves our understanding of the information.
Indeed. Personally, I agree with Jim that linear metrics are more informative.
I think it is reasonable to talk about "the area" of a sensor as it is this area we try to fill when taking a photograph.
Film and print sizes have always been described in terms of linear dimensions - 35mm, 2 1/4” square, 5x7”, 8x10”. etc. Like the TV discussion, people are used to this sort of characterization.

If they bring that intuition and understanding to a product specified in terms of area, they will tend to over-estimate the effects of increases.
 
a 6-inch Subway is the same size as the Foot-Long because when you look at it straight on from the end it is the same size.

When you stick it in your mouth, it is the same size in your mouth.

Therefore, it is the same size.

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums
 
Last edited:
Hi,

The original TV was mechanically scanned and used a wedge shaped screen. The Alexanderson System. And can be seen in the museum at WRGB Schenectady NY. The source programs were plays done at the Proctor Theatre beginning in 1923. Sporadically at first, and became a regularly scheduled program in 1926.

This was all General Electric and the transmitter was first known as W2XB by the FCC but also known as WGY-TV using the AM radio station call letters by the viewing public. They covered half the US at the time because there was no competition.

Electronic TV was electronically scanned and used a circular screen, from the standard of the oscilloscope it was based upon. This was a rival system from RCA and came along a little later. It allowed for greater resolution and with smaller equipment. This was W2XBS in New York City and became WNBC.

The round tube became masked into a 4:3 aspect ratio to mimic the Academy of Motion Pictures preferred scheme to better fit kinescoped movies. This was the beginning of TV broadcast standards. Prior to that, it was whatever anyone wanted to do.

Which was a good thing as it was going to take off big time following WWII.

Then they began to form the glass envelope of the CRT into a squarish shape, becoming more and more straight sided as time marched on. We didn't get completely straight sides until the advent of projection sets around 1975. They still used CRTs though. Three of them. One with red phosphor, one with green and one with blue.

Black and white TV had gone squarish by 1952 but then color came along in 1954 and went back to round tubes with masks in front to square it off a bit. And the motion picture ratio of 4:3 remained. Right thru the advent of Plasma and LCD screens until HD finally changed it. And motion pictures had gone to an even wider aspect ratio well before that.

Stan
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top