Full Frame ???

Hope1943

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Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
 
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I got curious about the hype so bought a Panasonic S5 + 20-60 about 1.5 years ago. Then I tried to get some zoom range with an adapted Canon EF 70-200 f4. Have used the setup a few times and liked both the camera, lenses and output. But my m43 system is just too convenient so FF's been lying on a shelf for half a year now. I've been studying more compact ways to mimic the zoom range of my m43 system (7-150mm) and projects change so I'm still hoping to make more use of FF. The quality difference is noticeable though not night and day.
 
Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
Fully agree. And I say that as an A7R IV owner. But back in film days, in addition to 35mm, I also used medium format and even occasionally a 4x5-inch view camera, so when I finally went digital, there was a certain logic to "full frame". I did want to retain the ability to print huge with maximum detail (even if only used occasionally). It was also easier to humor my perfectionism than to fight it. I wanted to be able to maximize quality from some vintage full-frame lenses I had. And for lenses, I mostly use primes with moderate maximum-apertures, and usually don't carry more than one or two at once, so that moderates carried kit weight. Also, when I bought the A7R IV, I figured that it might well be the last good camera I ever buy, so I decided to stick with high capability. (Including pixel-shift capability, for its well-known potential benefits, and no Sony APS-C camera had that -- and still doesn't, AFAIK. In fact, in APS-C, even today, only Pentax and Fuji have pixel-shift. (And Pentax isn't much of a contender, for reasons of minuscule market share and all the implications of that, plus not having the mirrorless advantages that I value, while pixel-shift on Fuji is reportedly problematic, possibly because it's too hard to do with the precision needed on a 40MP non-Bayer APS-C sensor)).

All that said, I'm nowadays thinking of adding an A7cR or an A6700 for use sometimes. With a bad back, every gram saved via a lighter camera may have a tangible benefit.

I think that many people using full frame camera equipment don't really need the capabilities of full-frame, just like many, possibly most, people driving SUVs don't really need the capabilities of an SUV, nor the larger size of the vehicles they've chosen. But in the case of full-frame cameras they end up spending hundred or thousands of dollars more than would be rational, while in the case of SUVs, it's thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. (So at least usually not as costly with cameras!)

That so many people buy things that they don't really need, or that are seriously sub-optimal with regard to meeting their needs, is, in large part, a measure of the power of manipulative advertising in a capitalust economy.
 
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I was skeptical.

For a long time I was an "APS-C apologist" as you call them. Though I can understand MFT and smaller sensors could have too many compromises for some people, I had a really hard time to understand the same narrative around APS-C sensors : to me, they delivered enough performance fo my needs and then some.

I was using Fujifilm as my main system at the time, with the X-H1 as my primary camera, and the X-T2 and X-T1 on the side as well. I considered that I didn't need more, and therefore didn't want more.

The only full frame camera I owned was a Nikon D700, which I kept for the image rendereing and the colors that the sensor gave me (performance wise, my APS-C cameras were better in DR and in noise levels, as well as resolution).

Then, I found myseflf in a situation where affordability was a problem. I was getting more and more sports gigs, and my lenses on Fujifilm (the 18-135 and a Viltrox 85 were my only "long" lenses), and Fujifilm lenses were not within my price-range. I tried adapting the few telephotos I had on Nikon, I even bought a nice tele on F-mount, planning on using it on my Fujis. Alas, the fringer NF-FX adapter wasn't very reliable at all, and for sports shooting that is a problem. It was either get the super expensive X mount lenses, or switch systems.

Since I already had Nikon F mount lenses, getting a Nikon Z camera + FTZ adapter was a no brainer. Unfortunately, the DX Nikon cameras in Z mount were not to my taste at all : they lacked features that I learned to be pretty fond of : more buttons and controls, IBIS, fast card slots,...

... as the "APS-C is all you need" kind of guy, I resigned myself in getting a full frame Nikon Z, as those cameras were the only ones that provided what I wanted : I switched the X-H1 for a Nikon Z6 and have been using that since.

I won't say that the differences are noticeable in good light. Both my X-T2 (which I kept) and my Z6 deliver similar enough results during the day. The Fuji is even a tiny bit sharper than the Nikon, thanks to the AA filter not being there. There are differences for dynamic range, but you don't see them unless you process the files heavily.

But...

When you start getting into low light, the Z6 really "opened my eyes" on why Full Frame cameras are so popular. With my Fujifilm cameras, I had a top native ISO of 12800. Any higher than that and you get into the extended ISO range which is pretty much useless. So I found myself using ISO 12800 a lot. Using the SOS standard, it's about equivalent to ISO 6400 when it comes to the exposure of the image comparedto REI cameras (like my Nikon). Images were usable at this ISO, but always a little too noisy (which required NR in post).

With the Z6 I completely stopped thinking about ISO. Not only is the camera matching the X-H1 when it comes to exposure at ISO 6400 or thereabouts, but I can push it MUCH higher, I find myself using ISO 32000/40000 often shooting sports in low light, and I don't need to apply more NR in post than I did with my X-H1 ISO 12800 files.

I still think that most of the photography I do would be more than enough with an APS-C sensor... but when the light starts getting low, having the high ISO capability is a life saver and a really nice thing to be able to rely on, especially for sports.

Now I'm shooting my Z6, but I also keep APS-C cameras around (and I recently got a micro four thirds one). I use the camera that fits the situation and I don't try to say which is superior to the other, because I genuinely don't know. Small sensor cameras have advantages over full frame, full frame have advantages over small sensors, and both also have drawbacks of their own.

By the way, my Z6 + small primes like the 28 and 40mm lenses is about the same size and weight as my X-H1 with equivalent lenses
 
When I bought my first DSLR 20 years ago I couldn't afford FF so it had to be APS-C. I gradually moved away from APS-C to M4/3 because it halved my backpack weight for major wildlife trips. Switching now to FF for these trips just isn't an option because of the cost and weight of FF lenses for wildlife. So I am going to stay with M4/3.

However, I do come up with situations which are simply outside the shooting envelope of M4/3. Nighttime soccer matches and low light, close wildlife are two currently. If I had a FF camera, I am sure that I would find plenty of other low light situations where I would prefer to use it - but not with 600mm lenses. :-)
 
If you do photography or videography as a full time job and get to a point where you have your own studio and plenty of clients then APSC won't cut it at that point. They'll still work for B roll and as a nifty and compact backup camera but you'll need a professional FF at that point. And yeah, Fujifilm's APSC including the overpriced XH2S and XT5 can't replace a high end FF camera.

But for anyone else, including even pros starting out, APSC is perfectly fine. In fact, if buying an APSC means you can invest in better lenses (and even the best APSC lenses are about comparable to mediocre FF lenses in price) then APSC is straight up better. Not only that, but for some kinds of use (like wildlife, birds, action) APSC means more reach without needing TCs.

And modern BSI APSC sensors have pretty respectable DR and noise levels at high iso. A decent FF will still be better in low light but given that the difference is no longer vast and in the age of AI denoise tools baked into a basic LR subscription, I would say if you're not a full time pro it's not worth it for you.

There are tons of other benefits to APSC, for example lighter body + lighter glass means even a basic gimbal would do. It would also make travel photography so much easier. It also means smaller files to work with, requiring less time, and a less expensive computer.

I bought A6700 and then sold the kit lens replacing it with a used Tamron 28-75mm 2.8. Add a Laowa lens for macro, a 56mm 1.4 sigma, and a 13mm 1.4 viltrox a Sony 100-210mm and I still haven't spent 1500 dollars on all the lenses combined. This wouldn't have been enough for just 2 decent FF lenses (maybe not even one depending on which you wanna get lol). And I'm still getting great pics and videos.

Anyone telling you APSC isn't enough either hasn't the smallest clue what they're on about or is chugging hard on the Kool aid.

My mom doesn't like it when I make fun of people on the Internet so I'll stop here😂
 
Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
“Full Frame” in film cameras was 8” x 10”.

35mm film was compact and portable; it was never considered “full frame.” When we transitioned from film to digital, 24x36mm sensors were way too expensive, even though camera systems continued to use lenses from 35mm cameras. So in the digital realm, there’s nothing magic about 24x36mm, it’s just a legacy size from the 1930’s that most professional and high quality lenses are built for.

Today, technology changes continually. Different photographers have different requirements and needs. You can’t generalize and say that one camera is better than another or one format is superior to another. It depends on your wants and needs.

Personally, I prefer what full frame does for me.
 
Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
I think the biggest consideration is MFT and maybe now even APS-C don't seem to be a good value proposition over a pixel 8 /iphone15 depending on your needs.
 
Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
I think the biggest consideration is MFT and maybe now even APS-C don't seem to be a good value proposition over a pixel 8 /iphone15 depending on your needs.
Well, I think that depends in large part on usage. If one's priority is social media, many of the photos will have social media as primary destination, and probably 2/3 of the time or more will only be viewed on a small screen, for which most will be good-enough. And many people aren't photographically critical, convenience (of carrying the camera, and of uploading to social media) takes precedence over quality. So for them, the phone actually performs better, for what they care about. And the phone also makes and receives calls and text messages, can be used to check email and play games, etc.
 
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It depends on what you're shooting. If you're talking mostly landscape shots in good light and posting exclusively on ig then maybe you'll get away with a smartphone (emphasis on maybe, you still have to consider how little control you have with phones even in manual mode).

But if you're shooting anything that doesn't like to sit still, or that requires you to take a shot from a distance (sports, animals, birds, kids, etc) then phones still flop hard most of the time. I've tried S24 Ultra and iPhone 15 pro max and both simply cannot freeze motion in anything but perfect lighting. You can force the phone to use a faster shutter speed, but you'll have to crank iso way up and end up with horrible noise levels.

Phones use tiny sensors and comically tiny lenses that can't even change their F stop. I dunno why anyone would expect them to be remotely as good as a dedicated APSC or FF cam equipped with a decent lens.
 
It depends on what you're shooting. If you're talking mostly landscape shots in good light and posting exclusively on ig then maybe you'll get away with a smartphone (emphasis on maybe, you still have to consider how little control you have with phones even in manual mode).

But if you're shooting anything that doesn't like to sit still, or that requires you to take a shot from a distance (sports, animals, birds, kids, etc) then phones still flop hard most of the time. I've tried S24 Ultra and iPhone 15 pro max and both simply cannot freeze motion in anything but perfect lighting. You can force the phone to use a faster shutter speed, but you'll have to crank iso way up and end up with horrible noise levels.

Phones use tiny sensors and comically tiny lenses that can't even change their F stop. I dunno why anyone would expect them to be remotely as good as a dedicated APSC or FF cam equipped with a decent lens.
Correct on all you said, plus there's an extra issue, cellphones' horrible ergonomics. Unfortunately, the convenience of having the cellphone "camera" (such as it is) "along for the ride" on a device they'll be carrying anyways, combined with the facts that many people nowadays view their photography almost exclusively on the small screens of their phones, and additionally apparently aren't very critical of image quality, means that cellphones have won out for a substantial fraction of the population. A measure of that is the near-total collapse of the point-and-shoot camera market.

I've got several nieces and great-nieces, have tried to get them interested in real-camera-based photography, have offered them advice and even serious instruction (free of course) -- but no spark of interest, and I don't know if there ever will be. A real shame; but then I remind myself that back in film days, many people were satisfied with the mediocre photos one would get from Instamatics and box Brownies, along with "drugstore"-type prints. Fact is, for many people, all that they want out of photography is a few memories, or the most basic of documentation. No interest in the artistry of the photographic image. Might be different if there was more visual arts instruction back at the elementary school level.
 
Unfortunately, the convenience of having the cellphone "camera" (such as it is) "along for the ride" on a device they'll be carrying anyways, combined with the facts that many people nowadays view their photography almost exclusively on the small screens of their phones, and additionally apparently aren't very critical of image quality, means that cellphones have won out for a substantial fraction of the population. A measure of that is the near-total collapse of the point-and-shoot camera market.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of point and shoot cameras and with some phones packing a 1 inch sensor nowadays I get why they killed the point and shoot from factor. People who are interested in this kind of camera want to put next to no effort into taking pics and phones fit nicely into this.

But us photographers we don't see photography as simply taking a snapshot! We compose, we set every tiny thing from white balance to shutter speed, aperture, iso range, exposure compensation, file type (lossless compressed raw, uncompressed, jpeg etc). We spend weeks researching which camera to buy, which lenses to pair with it, do we need a flash? How to use said flash, we go and buy ND filters, expansion tubes, all different kinds of LED arrays and reflectors and more. We put a lot of time and money into this hobby and phones don't fit this vision. They're for convenience, not quality. And early on you have to decide, do you care about taking pics and videos? Or do you just want a convenient way to take a pic?
I've got several nieces and great-nieces, have tried to get them interested in real-camera-based photography, have offered them advice and even serious instruction (free of course) -- but no spark of interest, and I don't know if there ever will be.
There's no hobby that's for everyone and that's ok. Maybe some people just want a casual shot, so as long as they're not telling themselves their iPhone will beat a mirrorless camera. Personally I've been asked about this and convinced some people to get a real cam and learn how to use it. My friend recently opened her own beauty salon and wanted to take pics and videos for the business's ig account. I took a few pics for her and convinced her to get the same cam (A6700) with a sigma 30mm 1.4 for nail pics and make-up time lapses, and a sigma 56mm 1.4 for portraits (both lenses used). The whole setup cost like 1900 or so which is less than the price of a galaxy fold and will be very capable for the next 7 years or so. A phone meanwhile would have been far worse for the job and lost 50% of its value (if not more) in 2 years.

You see if you buy a used midrange device for 250 to 300 bucks then you've got yourself a Swiss army knife that can do everything from running apps and games to web browsing, emails, and taking pics. I think that's the best device for most people.

But today some phones (like foldables) cost about as much as all of your appliances combined (seriously some of them will run you over 2000 dollars). Even a regular high end device (S24 Ultra, iPhone 15 pro max) can cost you 1400 dollars 😅. And yet some people buy them FOR THE CAMERAS. Like why??😅 They're still phones with a tiny ass sensor and a measly fixed aperture lens... Why pay so much more for a device that'll lose 75% of its value in 2 years to get maybe a slightly more detailed photo when you can buy a real cam for the same money or less and get real tangible improvements in photo/video quality?
 
But today some phones (like foldables) cost about as much as all of your appliances combined (seriously some of them will run you over 2000 dollars). Even a regular high end device (S24 Ultra, iPhone 15 pro max) can cost you 1400 dollars 😅. And yet some people buy them FOR THE CAMERAS. Like why??😅 They're still phones with a tiny ass sensor and a measly fixed aperture lens... Why pay so much more for a device that'll lose 75% of its value in 2 years to get maybe a slightly more detailed photo when you can buy a real cam for the same money or less and get real tangible improvements in photo/video quality?
Why? Because they're phones that you have in your pocket. That's why. Most people simply don't want to carry around a dedicated camera, and the image quality provoded by phones for both photo and video is generally good enough for almost everybody.

Looking at the last iPhone for example, being able to shoot 4K ProRes RAW, have 48MP images with a pretty decent background blur (it's computational, but lots of people don't care), nice tele-ish lens with image stabilization... And it fits in your jeans pocket.

Is it the best thing in the works for photo and video? Nope. Is it enough for people taht don't want to carry around a dedicated camera? Absolutely, and the convinience factor will sometimes be worth the price tag for some people.

We photographers need to accept the fact that dedicated cameras are going out of fashion, especially ILCs, and that we're now a niche within a niche. Some people do paid jobs with phones, or run entire youtube channels with millions of subscribers with only a phone. Sometiems absolute best performance for the price simply isn't the priority.
 
Why? Because they're phones that you have in your pocket. That's why. Most people simply don't want to carry around a dedicated camera, and the image quality provoded by phones for both photo and video is generally good enough for almost everybody.
I'm not saying don't buy a phone, you obviously need one. I'm saying why buy an expensive flagship? Compared to a used pixel 7a or something, the improvement in photo quality is not even always tangible lol. And btw, this is coming from someone who has owned nothing but Galaxy notes/ultra since 2018. I think I'm done with flagships.

Also PS: no, phones aren't good enough for almost everybody. They are for some use cases, but not for others. If you're trying to take pics of action, animals, macro etc a phone will not produce good results.
Looking at the last iPhone for example, being able to shoot 4K ProRes RAW, have 48MP images with a pretty decent background blur (it's computational, but lots of people don't care), nice tele-ish lens with image stabilization... And it fits in your jeans pocket.
My S24 Ultra has a 200 mpix camera. C'mon man, I thought people here know better than to swear by megapixel count from a tiny sub 1 inch sensor.

Phones are better for videography than they are for photography. They can still take good pics in the right conditions, but try challenging them and see how they flop. Like I said, for casual landscapes and selfies they're plenty. But you have to keep your expectations reasonable. A Dodge Ram is a mighty good truck, but if you expect it to best a tank in a tug of war you'll be very much disappointed.
Is it the best thing in the works for photo and video? Nope. Is it enough for people taht don't want to carry around a dedicated camera? Absolutely, and the convinience factor will sometimes be worth the price tag for some people.
We can agree on that. But I mean I don't wanna carry a dedicated camera if there's a more convenient alternative. The thing is, a compact APSC mirrorless is the most convenient thing that delivers good enough pics for me. It was the same for the person I mentioned in my post, she didn't want a camera purely for the fun of it, once she saw the huge improvement in quality, how professional the shots look, she decided to invest in one. It's also incredibly nice that good cameras are pretty affordable nowadays (and high end phone are overpriced af).
We photographers need to accept the fact that dedicated cameras are going out of fashion, especially ILCs, and that we're now a niche within a niche. Some people do paid jobs with phones, or run entire youtube channels with millions of subscribers with only a phone. Sometiems absolute best performance for the price simply isn't the priority.
Some people also taunt moose with sticks, or get high as a kite and jump into lion enclosures at zoos. It's a hyperbole but just cause someone does it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Almost all professionals graduate to a real camera (YouTube or otherwise). Hell most of these big YouTube channels don't even use only one camera, they have multiple FF cameras with 1 or more APSCs for B roll or as a ceiling mounted cam to shoot unboxing etc. trust me they're not running the entire business off the back of an iPhone.

For casual use yeah, cameras are a niche. Although I wouldn't say it's ILCs that are the most uncommon, that would be point and shoot cameras.. which I kinda agree don't have a place in the smartphone era.
 
They probably want one for the same reasons you bought one.

I am mainly a M43 guy. I love the more compact bodies along with the smaller lenses. Not so much into the bigger more feature packed ones although they are really good too

But I also wanted to be able to use 12800 without terrible noise. And the ability to lift the shadows on those dull English days.

I also like the Nikon full frame look. It's got subtle differences that I don't really get with M43.

Plus I like cameras. I can't ever have too many.

I'm currently looking at aps-c cameras too 😃
 
Unfortunately, the convenience of having the cellphone "camera" (such as it is) "along for the ride" on a device they'll be carrying anyways, combined with the facts that many people nowadays view their photography almost exclusively on the small screens of their phones, and additionally apparently aren't very critical of image quality, means that cellphones have won out for a substantial fraction of the population. A measure of that is the near-total collapse of the point-and-shoot camera market.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of point and shoot cameras and with some phones packing a 1 inch sensor nowadays I get why they killed the point and shoot from factor. People who are interested in this kind of camera want to put next to no effort into taking pics and phones fit nicely into this.

But us photographers we don't see photography as simply taking a snapshot! We compose, we set every tiny thing from white balance to shutter speed, aperture, iso range, exposure compensation, file type (lossless compressed raw, uncompressed, jpeg etc). We spend weeks researching which camera to buy, which lenses to pair with it, do we need a flash? How to use said flash, we go and buy ND filters, expansion tubes, all different kinds of LED arrays and reflectors and more. We put a lot of time and money into this hobby and phones don't fit this vision. They're for convenience, not quality. And early on you have to decide, do you care about taking pics and videos? Or do you just want a convenient way to take a pic?
I've got several nieces and great-nieces, have tried to get them interested in real-camera-based photography, have offered them advice and even serious instruction (free of course) -- but no spark of interest, and I don't know if there ever will be.
There's no hobby that's for everyone and that's ok. Maybe some people just want a casual shot, so as long as they're not telling themselves their iPhone will beat a mirrorless camera. Personally I've been asked about this and convinced some people to get a real cam and learn how to use it. My friend recently opened her own beauty salon and wanted to take pics and videos for the business's ig account. I took a few pics for her and convinced her to get the same cam (A6700) with a sigma 30mm 1.4 for nail pics and make-up time lapses, and a sigma 56mm 1.4 for portraits (both lenses used). The whole setup cost like 1900 or so which is less than the price of a galaxy fold and will be very capable for the next 7 years or so. A phone meanwhile would have been far worse for the job and lost 50% of its value (if not more) in 2 years.

You see if you buy a used midrange device for 250 to 300 bucks then you've got yourself a Swiss army knife that can do everything from running apps and games to web browsing, emails, and taking pics. I think that's the best device for most people.
Some years back, I think it was a couple years pre-pandemic, I was browsing in the camera dept at a Best Buy. Struck up a conversation, the shopper was a barber looking to publicize his business. Turns out he had already made the mistake of buying a high-end phone (which back then weren't anywhere as expensive as they are now), which wasn't capable-enough for his photographic needs, and he was belatedly realizing that he could/should have instead just gotten a two-hundred-dollar phone, and put the rest of what he had spent towards a real camera. No way for him to have a do-over, but I pointed him towards a Sony APS-C camera and an appropriate lens.
But today some phones (like foldables) cost about as much as all of your appliances combined (seriously some of them will run you over 2000 dollars). Even a regular high end device (S24 Ultra, iPhone 15 pro max) can cost you 1400 dollars 😅. And yet some people buy them FOR THE CAMERAS. Like why??😅 They're still phones with a tiny ass sensor and a measly fixed aperture lens... Why pay so much more for a device that'll lose 75% of its value in 2 years to get maybe a slightly more detailed photo when you can buy a real cam for the same money or less and get real tangible improvements in photo/video quality?
 
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Why? Because they're phones that you have in your pocket. That's why. Most people simply don't want to carry around a dedicated camera, and the image quality provoded by phones for both photo and video is generally good enough for almost everybody.
I'm not saying don't buy a phone, you obviously need one. I'm saying why buy an expensive flagship? Compared to a used pixel 7a or something, the improvement in photo quality is not even always tangible lol. And btw, this is coming from someone who has owned nothing but Galaxy notes/ultra since 2018. I think I'm done with flagships.
I mean, people buying flagship phones are the same that buy a Sony A1 to take pictures of their kids (not exactly, but you get the idea). They don't care about the "good enough", they want the best there is.
Also PS: no, phones aren't good enough for almost everybody. They are for some use cases, but not for others. If you're trying to take pics of action, animals, macro etc a phone will not produce good results.
Lots of people simply don't care about those genres. Also, macro is not as bad as you could think, most people that are casuals to photography will see a relatively close up 1:5 life size repro of a flower and think it has a pretty good macro lens.

Sports / action / wildlife shooting is today the main reason why people are buying cameras (and by that I mean entering the hobby, not upgrading their older camera kit)
Looking at the last iPhone for example, being able to shoot 4K ProRes RAW, have 48MP images with a pretty decent background blur (it's computational, but lots of people don't care), nice tele-ish lens with image stabilization... And it fits in your jeans pocket.
My S24 Ultra has a 200 mpix camera. C'mon man, I thought people here know better than to swear by megapixel count from a tiny sub 1 inch sensor.
That wasn't my point. I'm not touting the resolution here, but the computational features that are coming with it.

My phone has a 50MP sensor. When shooting RAW, the images suuuuuck, like super hard. Even my small Panny LX5 from 2018 is taking a steamy dump on it. However, when you're not shooting RAW, it doesn't take only one image. It takes dozens of them, compliles them and assembles that in something that actually looks pretty damn good, at least more than good enough for a small print or for social media posting.

In a vaccuum, yeah those sensors are really bad, but in the recent years smartphones manufacturers managed to drastically improve the performance of those cameras through software rather than hardware.
Phones are better for videography than they are for photography. They can still take good pics in the right conditions, but try challenging them and see how they flop. Like I said, for casual landscapes and selfies they're plenty. But you have to keep your expectations reasonable. A Dodge Ram is a mighty good truck, but if you expect it to best a tank in a tug of war you'll be very much disappointed.
My point was that for 99% of people, it's good enough.
Is it the best thing in the works for photo and video? Nope. Is it enough for people taht don't want to carry around a dedicated camera? Absolutely, and the convinience factor will sometimes be worth the price tag for some people.
We can agree on that. But I mean I don't wanna carry a dedicated camera if there's a more convenient alternative. The thing is, a compact APSC mirrorless is the most convenient thing that delivers good enough pics for me. It was the same for the person I mentioned in my post, she didn't want a camera purely for the fun of it, once she saw the huge improvement in quality, how professional the shots look, she decided to invest in one. It's also incredibly nice that good cameras are pretty affordable nowadays (and high end phone are overpriced af).
Eeeh, it depends.

Super high end phones are going to be 1300-1400 bucks in general. A decent APS-C camera + lens will easily get over that. And it can't go on the internet, it can't manage your emails, it can't take calls and send messages, it can't access the internet or GPS for travel.

On one hand I do agree that dedicated cameras are far from the image quality you're getting from a smartphone, on the other hand a lot of people simply don't care. They just want to take snaps of their life, not be artistically involved with photography. And generally, they want to share it on social media, so taking them with the device that will allow them to access those paltfoms makes sense.
We photographers need to accept the fact that dedicated cameras are going out of fashion, especially ILCs, and that we're now a niche within a niche. Some people do paid jobs with phones, or run entire youtube channels with millions of subscribers with only a phone. Sometiems absolute best performance for the price simply isn't the priority.
Some people also taunt moose with sticks, or get high as a kite and jump into lion enclosures at zoos. It's a hyperbole but just cause someone does it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Almost all professionals graduate to a real camera (YouTube or otherwise). Hell most of these big YouTube channels don't even use only one camera, they have multiple FF cameras with 1 or more APSCs for B roll or as a ceiling mounted cam to shoot unboxing etc. trust me they're not running the entire business off the back of an iPhone.
There are some that do. Typically youtube channels like DankPods run entirely off iPhones when it comes to video capture. That dude runs multiple channels, couple of them being over a million subs.
For casual use yeah, cameras are a niche. Although I wouldn't say it's ILCs that are the most uncommon, that would be point and shoot cameras.. which I kinda agree don't have a place in the smartphone era.
ILCs were already niche in 2008, their proportion in the market has grown since, the the absolute number of them has also decreased.

For pro work, of course ILCs aren't niche, but that's like saying race cars aren't niche on a race track : they will still be once you step on a normal road.
 
I mean, people buying flagship phones are the same that buy a Sony A1 to take pictures of their kids (not exactly, but you get the idea). They don't care about the "good enough", they want the best there is.
Not always. If you're buying the most expensive phone cause money isn't an issue for you then that's perfectly fine. But a lot of people who very much care about costs buy them thinking they'll get a dramatically better camera experience and that's just not the case. These people would be far better off buying a real cam.
In a vaccuum, yeah those sensors are really bad, but in the recent years smartphones manufacturers managed to drastically improve the performance of those cameras through software rather than hardware.
I know what computational photography is, and while it's handy and makes a significant difference in some scenarios, it's borderline useless for others. For example: if you're shooting fast moving subjects, or small subjects at a distance, or challenging genre (like macro). CP can't help you when the frames to be compiled are drastically different (fast subjects, extremely low light) or when the sensor and lens just aren't up to the task (macro).
Super high end phones are going to be 1300-1400 bucks in general. A decent APS-C camera + lens will easily get over that.
I already addressed these things. The camera I mentioned in the quote you replied to is more than what most people need, and it's 1400 dollars. A very good lens for it, bought used, is 250 to 300. The cherry on top? A good camera can easily serve you for 5 or even 7 years. A good lens for 10 or more. A flagship phone meanwhile will be obsolete in 2 or 3 years. If nothing because the battery will degrade and hold less charge (not to mention the severe depreciation).
There are some that do. Typically youtube channels like DankPods run entirely off iPhones when it comes to video capture. That dude runs multiple channels, couple of them being over a million subs.
It's funny I haven't heard of him, I looked him up and the first suggestion was complaining of how iPhone 15 pro max sucks lol.

I dunno if he only uses an iPhone for the ceiling cam but if that's all he does (take videos of different devices and his hands) then a potato would probably do fine.

For most other channels they use at least 1 mirrorless camera and a GoPro for pov rolls.
ILCs were already niche in 2008, their proportion in the market has grown since, the the absolute number of them has also decreased.
ILCs don't compete with phone.. I mean at least not for people who have the faintest clue. Point and shoot cameras were competing with phones and lost (rightfully so, even the RX 100 VII is an overpriced joke). But APSC, FF, and probably even m43 occupy a different niche than phones.

Back when I was a kid (so before camera phones were common), my parents had a small Sony point and shoot to take family pics. They never considered an ILC or DSLR even before camera phones were a thing (let alone half decent at taking pics) so phones couldn't have replaced something they never wanted or considered. I remember the other cameras that our neighbors and relatives had were Canon point and shoot cameras, and you never see these nowadays neither for obvious reasons. But enthusiasts who were buying D300s or EOS t3s back in early 2010s or late 2000s didn't suddenly throw away their cameras, lenses, speed lights, and tripods in favor of galaxies and iPhones.
 
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There are some that do. Typically youtube channels like DankPods run entirely off iPhones when it comes to video capture. That dude runs multiple channels, couple of them being over a million subs.
It's funny I haven't heard of him, I looked him up and the first suggestion was complaining of how iPhone 15 pro max sucks lol.

I dunno if he only uses an iPhone for the ceiling cam but if that's all he does (take videos of different devices and his hands) then a potato would probably do fine.
Did you watch his video, in which he explains *why* it sucks? (spoiler alert : the video title is a little click-baity, and the part that sucks is more a detail than anything else... still, for his way of making videos, a dedicated ILC just doesn't work)
 
Why are so many people aledgedly looking to buy a "full frame" camera? ...any full frame camera? "Full frame" in film cameras has been exceeded many times over with smaller sensored digital cameras, if quality of output is the criteria.

I guess its "the Best" and only "the Best" syndrome at work. Heck, only "the best" is good enough for ME, even if I only have $100 or so bucks to spend.

I have one "full frame" Sony and its got it's own limitations. Big, heavy, no crop factor on lenses. Of course I get to show off my weightlifting abilities and my ability to change lenses a lot, but I can do that with my m4/3 gear or Nikon 1 gear - but the weight ain't there. And, "full frame" used to be considered so timy that it couldn't possible capture all the detail out there.

Oh, well. Only "the Best, the Best, the Best" or nothing at all. Now where are all the cheap "full frame" cameras and lenses? And the light weight ones, too?

John
I am with InkedMarie on this one. Take your pick, spend a bit of money on yourself and don't worry to go a bit overboard if it brings you joy (and doesn't blow your budget).

People spend all kinds of money on all kinds of things in any part of life. Do you need a super functional jacket worth hundreds to walk around town in winter? Do you need the top of the range sneakers to shave off every last gram for the morning jog? How much difference is there for an average user between flagship and midrange phones? Can you justify the extra tens of thousands for the marginal gains from a top end hi-fi audio system? Why would you buy a guitar for a grand if you are a casual strummer? How many people can appreciate the difference between a £50 and £500 bottles of wine?

And those are examples where there is a functional gain for the price as opposed to a luxury/status items with reduced function but elevated status and much, much more elevated price tag, which is an entirely different category. Mechanical Tag Heuers are less accurate and higher upkeep than their quartz counterparts, but they are considered a work of art and command a higher price tag. People still buy them even if one can't tell the difference when looking at your wrist.
 

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