Flash too powerful

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 7, 2024

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

mclewis · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

Put the flash in manual mode. Then turn the flash power down on the flash. Fully manual (on camera and flash) is best for flash as then you have full control over everything. Look at the flash manuals to see how low the power can be set. It will go very low.

The Canon 430 EX III can go down to 1/128 power. The Godox V1 can go down to 1/256 power - even lower than the Canon. Your flash issues are down to not knowing how to use them to for the setup you want. This takes practice to work out the correct settings.

If you rely on the auto modes then you can never be sure of getting the results you want.

AnthonyL · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating

That is not my experience. I use Eneloop rechargeables which seem to last ages and I have never encountered overheating.

JAYPHOTO11 said:
BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

As mclewis says, switch the flash from ETTL to Manual and set your own desired powered ouptut. Though I have never experienced a high level of overexposure. What are you applying -3 stops to, exposure or the flash unit? If it is the exposure setting then the ETTL will simply try and override if I remember correctly.

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

mclewis said:
JAYPHOTO11 said:

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

Click to expand...

Put the flash in manual mode. Then turn the flash power down on the flash. Fully manual (on camera and flash) is best for flash as then you have full control over everything. Look at the flash manuals to see how low the power can be set. It will go very low.

The Canon 430 EX III can go down to 1/128 power. The Godox V1 can go down to 1/256 power - even lower than the Canon. Your flash issues are down to not knowing how to use them to for the setup you want. This takes practice to work out the correct settings.

If you rely on the auto modes then you can never be sure of getting the results you want.

You're missing that I said at the lowest possible manual setting it is still too bright, complete wash out at ISO 1600. I can't capture the ambient background in low light. The 430ex iii CAN do this just fine. I'm talking about the other flashes Godox and especially Neewer Z2 are too power at the lowest settings.

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

AnthonyL said:
JAYPHOTO11 said:

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating

Click to expand...

That is not my experience. I use Eneloop rechargeables which seem to last ages and I have never encountered overheating.

AnthonyL said:

BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Click to expand...

As mclewis says, switch the flash from ETTL to Manual and set your own desired powered ouptut. Though I have never experienced a high level of overexposure. What are you applying -3 stops to, exposure or the flash unit? If it is the exposure setting then the ETTL will simply try and override if I remember correctly.

Yes I mention that even in manual mode lowest possible setting and 3 diffusers flashes like the GODOX V1 or the NEEWER Z2 are way too powerful. The 430ex iii DOES work fine for ambient light capture but terrible battery even with eneloop for me. I shoot the clubs and in 1 hour batteries dying and overheat. I need a different flash with better battery like V1 or Z2

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

mclewis said:
JAYPHOTO11 said:

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

Click to expand...

Put the flash in manual mode. Then turn the flash power down on the flash. Fully manual (on camera and flash) is best for flash as then you have full control over everything. Look at the flash manuals to see how low the power can be set. It will go very low.

The Canon 430 EX III can go down to 1/128 power. The Godox V1 can go down to 1/256 power - even lower than the Canon. Your flash issues are down to not knowing how to use them to for the setup you want. This takes practice to work out the correct settings.

If you rely on the auto modes then you can never be sure of getting the results you want.

The 1/256 of the Godox is almost full power 1/1 of the canon. Crazy bright. Can't capture ambient background with lowest setting. What I wonder is what can I look for that determines that light output range when buying a flash. It's not a common question because for most higher power flash is better but I need the background of very low light club so I exposure for the background with ISO 1600 sometimes more.

AnthonyL · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
mclewis said:

JAYPHOTO11 said:

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

Click to expand...

Put the flash in manual mode. Then turn the flash power down on the flash. Fully manual (on camera and flash) is best for flash as then you have full control over everything. Look at the flash manuals to see how low the power can be set. It will go very low.

The Canon 430 EX III can go down to 1/128 power. The Godox V1 can go down to 1/256 power - even lower than the Canon. Your flash issues are down to not knowing how to use them to for the setup you want. This takes practice to work out the correct settings.

If you rely on the auto modes then you can never be sure of getting the results you want.

Click to expand...

You're missing that I said at the lowest possible manual setting it is still too bright,

No, I'm just trying to make sure, this being a Beginner's Forum, that we are on the same page. Manual could mean Camera in Manual or it could mean Flash in Manual.

If you are still to bright in Manual at 1/128 then there is something wrong with your 430 EXIII or the communication with the camera and it should not be overheating.

Specs are available for the Canon https://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/pr..._flash/speedlite_430ex_iii-rt/specifications/

If you are doing everything right then there is something wrong with your equipment, and if no flashes work properly I'd be checking out the camera itself, which you've not yet mentioned.

Chris R-UK · Aug 8, 2024

There is something very wrong here. In my experience a 1/128 flash setting outputs a very small amount of light.

Can you post an image to show what you are trying to photograph? Are you using the flash to illuminate the background only? If so, are you using in on the camera or off? What camera settings are you using, particularly what f/ number?

You can post an image from your computer by clicking on the "mountains" icon second from the right at the top of the input box.

tclune · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
What I wonder is what can I look for that determines that light output range when buying a flash.

A rough estimate can be found in the Guide Number for the flash. This number is, however, fraught. First, different manufacturers report it at different ISOs. To normalize it for the same ISO, you need to adjust it. If one is given at 100 ISO and the other at 200 ISO, the one given at 200 ISO must be divided by the square root of 2 to be the same as the first number (I've never seen anything but 100 and 200 used for GN, but if you enounter, say 400 ISO and 100 ISO, the 400 number should be divided by 2, the square root of 4, which is the relative value in ISO, etc.)

Second, the GN is given for a particular focal length. Many flashes adjust their beam depending on the lens' focal length, and so a GN for 100mm FL will be more powerful than one for, say, 75mm. I imagine someone here can determine how to adjust for that, but I'm not sure off the top of my head.

Good luck.

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

AnthonyL said:
JAYPHOTO11 said:

mclewis said:

JAYPHOTO11 said:

So, I need to capture ambient light of the background. I have 430ex iii canon speedlite flash, which is terrible for battery life and overheating BUT it has no problem with high ISO (1600) to be able to capture the background and provide a nice low light to the subject. Then I tried Godox V1 and returned it. And now Neewer Z2 also with the same an overpowered issue. It cannot, even with many diffusers attached, simply output a lower flash power. At it lowest settings in manual and with -3 stops compensation in ETTL it is too still powerful. The best I can get is 200 ISO with shutter at 1/125 to not completely blast the subject with light. Is it common these other flashes cannot handle low light output.

Is there something I should look for that determines this feature when buying a flash? Thank you please as I cannot find this info ANYWHERE.

Click to expand...

Put the flash in manual mode. Then turn the flash power down on the flash. Fully manual (on camera and flash) is best for flash as then you have full control over everything. Look at the flash manuals to see how low the power can be set. It will go very low.

The Canon 430 EX III can go down to 1/128 power. The Godox V1 can go down to 1/256 power - even lower than the Canon. Your flash issues are down to not knowing how to use them to for the setup you want. This takes practice to work out the correct settings.

If you rely on the auto modes then you can never be sure of getting the results you want.

Click to expand...

You're missing that I said at the lowest possible manual setting it is still too bright,

Click to expand...

No, I'm just trying to make sure, this being a Beginner's Forum, that we are on the same page. Manual could mean Camera in Manual or it could mean Flash in Manual.

If you are still to bright in Manual at 1/128 then there is something wrong with your 430 EXIII or the communication with the camera and it should not be overheating.

Specs are available for the Canon https://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/pr..._flash/speedlite_430ex_iii-rt/specifications/

If you are doing everything right then there is something wrong with your equipment, and if no flashes work properly I'd be checking out the camera itself, which you've not yet mentioned.

I appreciate you trying but you're still not reading what i'm writing. The 430ex iii works FINE. This is what is confusing. The other flashes like godox v1 or Neewer z2 at the lowest power are way too bright TO BE ABLE TO CAPTURE THE AMBIENT LIGHT. Canon does it fine. But I want to switch from Canon because the battery situation sucks.

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

Chris R-UK said:
There is something very wrong here. In my experience a 1/128 flash setting outputs a very small amount of light.

Can you post an image to show what you are trying to photograph? Are you using the flash to illuminate the background only? If so, are you using in on the camera or off? What camera settings are you using, particularly what f/ number?

You can post an image from your computer by clicking on the "mountains" icon second from the right at the top of the input box.

okay so

FIRST IMAGE: No flash just exposing for ambient light,

Second IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to 1/256 power,

THIRD IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to ETTL -3 stops exposure comp,

FORTH IMAGE: Canon 430ex iii set to ETTL with no exposure comp, (works exactly as I would like the other flashes to work, adding a nice lower output and capturing the ambient background),

Chris R-UK · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
Chris R-UK said:

There is something very wrong here. In my experience a 1/128 flash setting outputs a very small amount of light.

Can you post an image to show what you are trying to photograph? Are you using the flash to illuminate the background only? If so, are you using in on the camera or off? What camera settings are you using, particularly what f/ number?

You can post an image from your computer by clicking on the "mountains" icon second from the right at the top of the input box.

Click to expand...

okay so

FIRST IMAGE: No flash just exposing for ambient light,

Second IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to 1/256 power,

THIRD IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to ETTL -3 stops exposure comp,

FORTH IMAGE: Canon 430ex iii set to ETTL with no exposure comp, (works exactly as I would like the other flashes to work, adding a nice lower output and capturing the ambient background),

Clearly there is something very wrong. Since it happened with both the Godox and the Neewer, I suspect that it could be some inconsistency between flash on Canon DSLRs and on Canon RF mount. Maybe the Godox and Neewer are set up for RF bodies and there is an internal switch that has to be changed for EF bodies, or perhaps there is a firmware upgrade for the 5D MkIV?

I suggest that you try posting in the Lighting forum or one of the Canon forums and include these images in the post.

--
Chris R

mclewis · Aug 8, 2024

It would be interesting to see the exif details for those photos.

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

I believe if you hover on computer it shows it

71ae91750bbd4363a0f1e30f791cd52a.jpg.png

JAYPHOTO11 · Aug 8, 2024

Chris R-UK said:
JAYPHOTO11 said:

Chris R-UK said:

There is something very wrong here. In my experience a 1/128 flash setting outputs a very small amount of light.

Can you post an image to show what you are trying to photograph? Are you using the flash to illuminate the background only? If so, are you using in on the camera or off? What camera settings are you using, particularly what f/ number?

You can post an image from your computer by clicking on the "mountains" icon second from the right at the top of the input box.

Click to expand...

okay so

FIRST IMAGE: No flash just exposing for ambient light,

Second IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to 1/256 power,

THIRD IMAGE: Neewer Z2 flash set to ETTL -3 stops exposure comp,

FORTH IMAGE: Canon 430ex iii set to ETTL with no exposure comp, (works exactly as I would like the other flashes to work, adding a nice lower output and capturing the ambient background),

Click to expand...

Clearly there is something very wrong. Since it happened with both the Godox and the Neewer, I suspect that it could be some inconsistency between flash on Canon DSLRs and on Canon RF mount. Maybe the Godox and Neewer are set up for RF bodies and there is an internal switch that has to be changed for EF bodies, or perhaps there is a firmware upgrade for the 5D MkIV?

I suggest that you try posting in the Lighting forum or one of the Canon forums and include these images in the post.

I'm starting to think it's just the flash range. Godox and Neewer can't output very low like canon but they work fine for any other lighting situations so might keep it for weddings but for low light clubs where ambient is needed can't use it

lehill · Aug 8, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
I'm starting to think it's just the flash range. Godox and Neewer can't output very low like canon but they work fine for any other lighting situations so might keep it for weddings but for low light clubs where ambient is needed can't use it

You're probably correct. Even at its lowest power setting, the Neewer Z2 puts out more flash power than the scene requires.

I've never shot clubs but I bounce flash all the time so a big powerful flash suits me just fine. I noticed you're shooting very close to the subject (EXIF says 0.71 m) and shooting direct flash too. That's the style for club shooting.

I just received a Flashpoint Zoom Li-on III R2 (= Godox V860 III) which is also rated at 76 W⋅s. It's mid-day here but I tried to duplicate your shots as closely as I could in a darkened room:

Not quite as blown-out as your samples, but it's getting close. If I had a 24mm f/1.4 set to f/2.2, it would come pretty close to your samples.

So I tried ISO100 instead of ISO1000 and got that little kiss of flash you're looking for:

I suppose using ISO100, 200, etc would make the background darker than you want. Maybe what you're looking for is a less powerful flash with a large turndown ratio (1:128).

--
Lance H

BBbuilder467 · Aug 9, 2024

Why such high ISO? I've never needed high ISO for close-ups.

Increasing the ISO, increases the GN. You shouldn't need to raise the ISO when you're practically within arm's reach of your subject matter.

The new flashes might not react to ISO the same as the old one.

LetBeLight · Aug 9, 2024

If I remember correctly when using flash the factors that determine the correct exposure are:

- aperture

- ISO

As far as I remember shutter doesn’t play that much of a role.
I may be wrong, though.

Best to use M-mode on camera, f 3.5-4.0, AUTO ISO 100-200, ETTL on the flash, but Manual on the flash will work as well, you just have to take few control shots to make sure the exposure is right.

In your picture samples you are using f2.2 and ISO 1000, those settings IMO will always overexpose the image.

tclune · Aug 10, 2024

BBbuilder467 said:
Why such high ISO? I've never needed high ISO for close-ups.

What the OP wants to do is essentially use the flash as fill flash, with the camera set for ambient light in a dark environment. The camera settings are determined by the scene: the flash is just an adjunct to bring more of the scene out of the shadows. Think of a candlelight portrait where you want to allow more of the scene to be visible.

ETA: I suspect that one of those inexpensive adjustable video fill lights would probably work for his purposes. but that's just a guess.

geru · Aug 10, 2024

JAYPHOTO11 said:
I believe if you hover on computer it shows it

There's nothing wrong with any of the flashes your using. You're correct to assume that the differences in power between them is the reason for inconsistent lighting. Photos to bright reduce ISO by 1 stop or more or close your aperture to F/5.6 or F8.

Flash too powerful

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