Only 8% market share? Is Fuji slipping?

No one has really assimilated the cost of film and IQ of half frame yet! I do think DSLR and SLR that are lens compatible might have proved their niche. The fate of Pentax and Olympus do hurt me and I do think self inflicted. Yes, Pentax needs an up to date full frame DSLR.

a_c_skinner said:

Yes, Pentax needs an up to date full frame DSLR.

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I think that ship has sailed, and to produce one could be the straw that breaks the camels back. We all want to see them make one, but will YOU buy one? In Australia the K3III (APS-C) sold for $2899AUD, the K-1 still sells for $3,399.00... the price of a successor is going to be around $4000AUD. Who is buying a DSLR for $4000AUD in 2024?! It might even struggle to meet the same performance as a D850... (AF has never been a strength of Pentax).
Pentaxians are aging, appealing to this demograph is a recipe for disaster. Strength lies in appealing to all photographers, regardless what cameras they choose to use. A DSLR is a big commitment, a fixed lens not so much (which is why the X100V/VI has done so well).

So... personally I want Pentax to succeed and I am not so sure they need to do a new up to date DSLR, especially if the sales for that are severely low and make them a loss. Pentax 17 has shown them ways of making revenue that they have not seen in a long time..

BruceBanner said:

Without a Full Frame system it is unlikely they will ever truly dent that pie chart and become a major player. The perks APS-C once upon a time had over FF are gone, these days the FF cameras are out performing APS-C in ways of AF, burst rates and buffer. Some fuji cameras like the XH2/S are not even small or light.

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I generally agree with your overall assessment, most of which I clipped out. However, I think your statement above is misleading. It's not necessarily wrong, but it implies that these are all inherent limitations of APS-C. And I don't believe that is true. If Nikon, Canon, or Sony decided to put out a top tier APS-C camera I seriously doubt it would lag behind their full frame models in AF, burst rates, or buffer. This is a Fujifilm problem, not an APS-C problem.

BruceBanner said:

BruceBanner wrote:
But for now, we should be rejoicing, they really needed a win and they have that with the Pentax 17.

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I don't disagree with your response regarding Pentax. But I can't help but laugh at this excerpt taken directly from Pentax's Pentax 17 page.

"provides users with the fun and excitement of manual camera operation unique to film photography, such as manual film winding using the film advance lever, and manual focus-range setting with the zone-focus system"

I didn't know the fun and excitement of using film was the film advance lever and an inexact focus system.

Personally, the Pentax 17 intrigues me. However, I have no interest in using a camera that captures portrait orientation images when 80% of my images are landscape orientation. I also have no film masks for my scanner for half frame.

Mike, are they spread too thin by making GFX?

Not defending Fuji, but those numbers are misleading and get polluted with other sectors of the big companies that do many other things. We all have known for many years that Fuji was behind SonCaNikon on total camera sales. But this doesn't necessarily reflect company health of profits and the numbers can be thrown around in many ways because you are often comparing apples to oranges.

Plus, I don't believe those numbers.

But I always worry that one or two of the big camera makers could shift out of the camera business over time and no one here on DPR wants that to happen.

I think Fuji is heathy and doing what they want to do, but I wish they would deliver my GF 30 Tilt/Shift that I have had on order for 8 months.

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

BruceBanner said:

I think 8% is ok for an enthusiast/hobby brand.
Don't get me wrong, I shoot professionally with 2x XH2S's, but I am under no illusion I represent a minority.
Fuji put out a lot of cameras but none of them are really professional tools.

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Does that include GFX?

BruceBanner said:

They are hobbyist play things, a break away from the proper work tools.

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That is an inflammatory and completely absurd comment.

BruceBanner said:

GFX is a nice thing, but no pro shooting

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Oh, you did include GFX! That is one of the most bizarre comments in Fuji Forum history. Complete wrong and just totally ridiculous.
The rest of your rant about Fuji X being terrible and Fuji blowing it by not making a FF camera is some difficult stuff to try to wade through and I disagree vehemently with about 80% of it. Is this forum still moderated?

BruceBanner said:

a_c_skinner said:

Pentax has done what Olympus did in the late 1980s, it has lost touch with its market. Olympus took its magnificent OM range and added the OM101, Pentax has failed to move into mirrorless and has produced the wrong type of film camera - it should have produced a proper SLR for which there is a full range of lenses. A choice of film or a modern full frame sensor digital bodies might just have breathed life into the company.

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Actually, you're fairly misinformed here.

If we're talking about Pentax 'losing the battle' between the major companies, that fall happened decades ago, ever since Hoya acquired Pentax early 2000's.

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Actually Mr. Skinner is correct. Pentax lost the battle of industry dominance at about the same time the Minolta Maxxum 7000 was released in 1985.

michaeladawson said:

BruceBanner said:

Without a Full Frame system it is unlikely they will ever truly dent that pie chart and become a major player. The perks APS-C once upon a time had over FF are gone, these days the FF cameras are out performing APS-C in ways of AF, burst rates and buffer. Some fuji cameras like the XH2/S are not even small or light.

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I generally agree with your overall assessment, most of which I clipped out. However, I think your statement above is misleading. It's not necessarily wrong, but it implies that these are all inherent limitations of APS-C. And I don't believe that is true. If Nikon, Canon, or Sony decided to put out a top tier APS-C camera I seriously doubt it would lag behind their full frame models in AF, burst rates, or buffer. This is a Fujifilm problem, not an APS-C problem.

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If you think the Fujifilm XH2/XH2S is as big as a high end FF, try picking up a Nikon Z8 with Nikon Z glass sometimes. The Z8 is a midget compared to the Z9. There are plenty of genres where insanely high burst rates are not necessary. I can tell you from personal experience that a XH2 with a 16 - 80 is a lot easier to lug around and handle than the equivalent Z8 with a Z 24-120.

Yep my Z8 can produce high burst rates, but seldom do I use anything a repetition rate greater than 200 msec. Maybe the sports photographer needs 20 frames/sec. However, how much changes in 50 msec much less 25 msec? For example the human reaction time for a professional athletic is on the order of 200 msec. The fastest measured is reaction time is 100 msec.


It takes a 100 mile per hour fast ball 400 msec to make it to the plant. That leaves about 150 msec for the batter to decide to swing or not and where and when to swing.


The median has been established to be 278 msec. I someone has a reaction time better than about 200 msec, then they have the potential to make millions of dollars a year in professional baseball.

The remaining 1% is from the X and GFX cameras.

Bill Ferris said:

**** Ginkowski said:

Patrick at Fuji Rumors reports Fuji had 8% of the mirrorless market in 2023. Canon led with 41%, followed by Sony (32%) and Nikon (13%).

This is interesting. Canon entered the mirrorless game late, their mirrorless offerings are clunky in size. Nikon is also a late entrant. Sony was serious about it and its market share shows that. Canon's share is surprising. But I'm surprised Fuji's share is so low. They were an early entrant with a diverse camera line and quality glass.

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Canon has dominated market share for the better part of the last three decades. Their name and brand recognition in imaging is second to none. That they have a dominant market share position in the mirrorless segment isn't at all surprising.

Sony's story is impressive. They were foundering as a manufacturer of DSLR bodies. Then, they stopped midstream, embraced mirrorless, introduced the A7 variants, and refreshed or upgraded systems every 12 months or so for 2-3 years. It's a strategy that established Sony's brand as a manufacturer that innovates new technology. It also catapulted Sony over Nikon as the second of two major players in the digital imaging duopoly.

Fujifilm was on the brink of leaving digital imaging when they rolled the dice on retro-styled compact APS-C cameras that anyone can carry around all day. They made the decision to forego full-frame to not compete with Canon and Nikon (this was before Sony's rise) for market share dominance. Their gambit was successful and Fuji has happily remained profitable developing niche products for specific audiences of photographers.

Fujifilm's market share isn't an indication of product quality so much as user experience. Fujifilm cameras are for the photographer who wants to travel and pack light, whose personal aesthetic stands out as not blending in with the pack, as being a bit quirky, and not in a hurry to make a photo.

They know their audience and serve them, well.

If anything, the successful entry into medium format diversifies Fujifilm's position in digital imaging. I'd say they're better positioned than ever for the next 5-10 years.

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Well said, but you left out one of the most important Fuji factors of all - a genius and gutsy move Fuji.... Guess what that is Bill. It's OK to say it out loud on the Fuji Board. We are talking about Fuji here and guess what else Fuji makes besides X cameras?

yogi4fitness said:

The remaining 1% is from the X and GFX cameras.

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Yogi, I haven't been on the Fuji X Board in a while. I'm surprised to see you here.

Reading this thread reminds me of the daily hilarity and energy that I have been missing by just posting on the NF Board.

It brings back so many memories....

Where is Jerry?

He needs to stary nuking some of this nonsense.

Greg7579 said:

Mike, are they spread too thin by making GFX?

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Well, I don't think they're spread too thin. My point was that Fujifilm has the resources to be as big as they want to be within the constraints of customer demand.

If people think that Fujifilm can't deliver enough product because they are spread to thin... then I'm just saying that it is an issue of Fujifilm's own making. It would either be bad management (which I don't think it is) or by design.

Greg7579 said:

Where is Jerry?

He needs to stary nuking some of this nonsense.

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Jerry is no longer a moderator on this forum.

michaeladawson said:

Greg7579 said:

Mike, are they spread too thin by making GFX?

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Well, I don't think they're spread too thin. My point was that Fujifilm has the resources to be as big as they want to be within the constraints of customer demand.

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They are, broadly speaking, as big as they want to be

michaeladawson said:

If people think that Fujifilm can't deliver enough product because they are spread to thin... then I'm just saying that it is an issue of Fujifilm's own making. It would either be bad management (which I don't think it is) or by design.

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They are happy providing they hit their sales targets. Not aiming for market dominance.

Greg7579 said:

yogi4fitness said:

The remaining 1% is from the X and GFX cameras.

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Yogi, I haven't been on the Fuji X Board in a while. I'm surprised to see you here.

Reading this thread reminds me of the daily hilarity and energy that I have been missing by just posting on the NF Board.

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Is NF Nikon Forum?

Greg7579 said:

It brings back so many memories....

Where is Jerry?

He needs to stary nuking some of this nonsense.

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Are you calling the astronomical sales of X100 series nonsense?

Greg7579 said:

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

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michaeladawson said:

Greg7579 said:

Mike, are they spread too thin by making GFX?

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Well, I don't think they're spread too thin. My point was that Fujifilm has the resources to be as big as they want to be within the constraints of customer demand.

If people think that Fujifilm can't deliver enough product because they are spread to thin... then I'm just saying that it is an issue of Fujifilm's own making. It would either be bad management (which I don't think it is) or by design.

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I agree with that take. You are talking to a guy who has had a GF 30 TS lens that cost almost 4.5 grand on order for 8 months!

I want Fuji to make us better cameras and for Canon, Pano, Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Leica and Hassy to all thrive and put pressure in each other so they keep innovating and improving in a rapid manner - like laptops.

I don't want any of them to fail or stop making real cameras.

yogi4fitness said:

Greg7579 said:

yogi4fitness said:

The remaining 1% is from the X and GFX cameras.

Click to expand...

Yogi, I haven't been on the Fuji X Board in a while. I'm surprised to see you here.

Reading this thread reminds me of the daily hilarity and energy that I have been missing by just posting on the NF Board.

Click to expand...

Is NF Nikon Forum?

yogi4fitness said:

It brings back so many memories....

Where is Jerry?

He needs to stary nuking some of this nonsense.

Click to expand...

Are you calling the astronomical sales of X100 series nonsense?

yogi4fitness said:

Click to expand...

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Did I say NF? I haven't shot Nikon since the Nikon F2 in the later 70s and early 80s when I had one. I meant Medium Format Forum, which is about 85% GFX. LOL.

BruceBanner said:

I think 8% is ok for an enthusiast/hobby brand.
Don't get me wrong, I shoot professionally with 2x XH2S's, but I am under no illusion I represent a minority.
Fuji put out a lot of cameras but none of them are really professional tools. They are hobbyist play things, a break away from the proper work tools. XH2S might be the exception to the rule.

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Don’t tell Fuji. They separate their image division into professional photography: this includes all mirrorless cameras. The division that develops their Instax cameras, films and printers, which is huge, is not a part of it.

One division is:

Photo Imaging. This includes:

• Instant photo systems (instax)
• Photo printing materials (Photographic paper and chemicals for color prints, Inkjet paper and inks, Thermal paper and ribbons)
• Printer devices (Minilabs, Thermal photo printers)
• Labs and photo printing services (Value-added printing services such as Photobook, Photo printing services)
• Photographing sensitive sensitive materials (Color negative film, Reversal film, QuickSnap)

The other one:

Optical Device & Electronic Imaging. This includes:

• X Series digital cameras
• GFX Series mirrorless digital cameras with large-format sensor
• Interchangeable lenses for digital cameras
• TV lenses, cinema lenses
• Security camera and security camera lenses
• Projectors and projector lenses
• Vehicle-mounted lenses

Source:

michaeladawson said:

BruceBanner said:

Without a Full Frame system it is unlikely they will ever truly dent that pie chart and become a major player. The perks APS-C once upon a time had over FF are gone, these days the FF cameras are out performing APS-C in ways of AF, burst rates and buffer. Some fuji cameras like the XH2/S are not even small or light.

Click to expand...

I generally agree with your overall assessment, most of which I clipped out. However, I think your statement above is misleading. It's not necessarily wrong, but it implies that these are all inherent limitations of APS-C. And I don't believe that is true. If Nikon, Canon, or Sony decided to put out a top tier APS-C camera I seriously doubt it would lag behind their full frame models in AF, burst rates, or buffer. This is a Fujifilm problem, not an APS-C problem.

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I think perhaps you misunderstand my point. What I mean is, once upon a time we had valid cameras like the D500 having a solid stomping ground for a selection of users, because at that tech time we could not get FF cameras to perform as swiftly in the ways of burst rates, buffer, AF etc.
But as tech improved FF cameras were now able to burst up to 120fps with endless buffers at MS speeds. The smaller file size gain that APS-C once had is irrelevant now with bottlenecks solved.
So why shoot APS-C, for lower dynamic range and IQ, when the same task can be achieved on a larger better sensor? This is the reason Canikony don't take their APS-C division seriously. It actually is a Fujifilm problem because they decided to stay APS-C and not compete at a FF level with the rest, where most of the innovation (especially lenses) exist.
It's about thresholds, perhaps Canikony could make a great APS-C with even faster burst rates or better buffer, but I think we're already past a threshold of specs that are more than enough for most togs. 120fps is already niche, 40fps is something only some need occasionally. We all have 10-15fps endless buffer, so any additional perks APS-C could have here is going to have limited niche appeal. It would be cool to see, 240fps bursting APS-C from Sony :-D but I think it would be more of a flex camera than something the market needs.

I think one day the same will be true for Medium Format to Full Frame. If Sony were to build a competent AF, fps, and buffering Medium Format camera, then fast track a couple of decades from this point and the industry will be like 'why bother with FF, just use MF where it can do the same with better IQ'.

But we're just not there yet.

But in summary, to answer your own point, the fact Canikony don't put out a top tier APS-C is the proof in the pudding.