Is Sony making too many different cameras?

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor

Click to expand...

I'm stills only so I have no idea on the video front, aside from choice is good?

SafariBob said:

.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

Click to expand...

You either need stacked sensors or you dont. Nobody has a better range than Sony.

SafariBob said:

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

To me, Sony has it all. You have full sized FF bodies or compact ones.

You have stacked or non stacked sensors

You can choose from 24mp up to 61mp

Not sure what your point is? Does another brand have a more cohesive range?

That said, I think Sony have a gap. Thats a £4000 stacked sensor camera to compete with Z8.

But, that's it?

I would cut the A7siii, its not needed with the Fx3 there. I would also cut the A7CR, its slower then the A7Rv.

Sony really needs an entry level, as most people starting arent going to spend $850 for the A6100 with kit lens.

The A7iv is also way too expensive to be entry level. The A7iii is 6 years old and is behind in AF compared to the often cheaper Canon R8.

tqlla said:

I would cut the A7siii, its not needed with the Fx3 there. I would also cut the A7CR, its slower then the A7Rv.

Sony really needs an entry level, as most people starting arent going to spend $850 for the A6100 with kit lens.

The A7iv is also way too expensive to be entry level. The A7iii is 6 years old and is behind in AF compared to the often cheaper Canon R8.

Click to expand...

I agree.

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor

Click to expand...

I'm stills only so I have no idea on the video front, aside from choice is good?

Click to expand...

it causes fragmentation and artificial limitations in certain cameras, as well as insufficient investment in supporting longevity of the product

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

Click to expand...

You either need stacked sensors or you dont. Nobody has a better range than Sony.

Click to expand...

pretty much everyone benefits from stacked and gs, especially beginners, who are much more dependent on mind reading af

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

To me, Sony has it all. You have full sized FF bodies or compact ones.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there is little thought towards actual use cases. You often just want the latest cam, irrespective of product line.

ray_burnimage said:

You have stacked or non stacked sensors

You can choose from 24mp up to 61mp

Click to expand...

its pretty much clear that the market is settling on 61mp as the standard for full frame, much like 24mp for apsc and i guess 100mp for medium format.

ray_burnimage said:

Not sure what your point is? Does another brand have a more cohesive range?

Click to expand...

it’s easier to understand who the various full frame canon bodies are for. A bit the same with Nikon - the z8 is for everyone, and the z6iii for working pros who can’t justify the z8. The zf is the enthusiast cam.

ray_burnimage said:

That said, I think Sony have a gap. Thats a £4000 stacked sensor camera to compete with Z8.

Click to expand...

i agree with this. It would make a lot of sense if Sony launched the a1ii as a 3999 stacked camera, maybe ditching the physical shutter, but adding back in all the recent updates. I don’t think that is going to happen though, I think it will be a 50-60mp global shutter at 7999. And it’s not clear that global shutter sensors are inherently more expensive than stacked.

ray_burnimage said:

But, that's it?

Click to expand...

there is nothing really in Sony’s lineup that competes with the r8, zf, and in many ways the r6ii /s5ii / z6iii - but presumably the a7siv or a7v will

SafariBob said:

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor

Click to expand...

I'm stills only so I have no idea on the video front, aside from choice is good?

Click to expand...

it causes fragmentation and artificial limitations in certain cameras, as well as insufficient investment in supporting longevity of the product

Click to expand...

OK?

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

Click to expand...

You either need stacked sensors or you dont. Nobody has a better range than Sony.

Click to expand...

pretty much everyone benefits from stacked and gs, especially beginners, who are much more dependent on mind reading af

Click to expand...

I'm assuming this is tongue in cheek. Clearly those NEEDING a stacked sensor know why they need it.....

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

To me, Sony has it all. You have full sized FF bodies or compact ones.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there is little thought towards actual use cases. You often just want the latest cam, irrespective of product line.

Click to expand...

Use cases are the realm of the user to choose. Is there another brand that offers a more dialled in choice?

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

You have stacked or non stacked sensors

You can choose from 24mp up to 61mp

Click to expand...

its pretty much clear that the market is settling on 61mp as the standard for full frame, much like 24mp for apsc and i guess 100mp for medium format.

Click to expand...

I think forums are settling on 61mp plus. The rest of the world out there earning, not so much.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

Not sure what your point is? Does another brand have a more cohesive range?

Click to expand...

it’s easier to understand who the various full frame canon bodies are for. A bit the same with Nikon - the z8 is for everyone, and the z6iii for working pros who can’t justify the z8. The zf is the enthusiast cam.

Click to expand...

The Z8 is a brick. The Z6III is behind the 2019 A9II for stills

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

That said, I think Sony have a gap. Thats a £4000 stacked sensor camera to compete with Z8.

Click to expand...

i agree with this. It would make a lot of sense if Sony launched the a1ii as a 3999 stacked camera, maybe ditching the physical shutter, but adding back in all the recent updates. I don’t think that is going to happen though, I think it will be a 50-60mp global shutter at 7999. And it’s not clear that global shutter sensors are inherently more expensive than stacked.

Click to expand...

Nobody is perfect.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

But, that's it?

Click to expand...

there is nothing really in Sony’s lineup that competes with the r8, zf, and in many ways the r6ii /s5ii / z6iii - but presumably the a7siv or a7v will

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. In fact, for stills, a used A9 for £1100 will beat all those!

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor

Click to expand...

I'm stills only so I have no idea on the video front, aside from choice is good?

Click to expand...

it causes fragmentation and artificial limitations in certain cameras, as well as insufficient investment in supporting longevity of the product

Click to expand...

OK?

Click to expand...

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking. If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

Click to expand...

You either need stacked sensors or you dont. Nobody has a better range than Sony.

Click to expand...

pretty much everyone benefits from stacked and gs, especially beginners, who are much more dependent on mind reading af

Click to expand...

I'm assuming this is tongue in cheek. Clearly those NEEDING a stacked sensor know why they need it.....

Click to expand...

Stacked and gs makes everything simpler, thus benefiting all users. Nobody needs it presumably, as it didn’t exist 10 years ago

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

To me, Sony has it all. You have full sized FF bodies or compact ones.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there is little thought towards actual use cases. You often just want the latest cam, irrespective of product line.

Click to expand...

Use cases are the realm of the user to choose. Is there another brand that offers a more dialled in choice?

Click to expand...

I think to a certain extent it is an industry wide problem, but Nikon has been doing better at least since d850, and Sony also released the a99ii

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

You have stacked or non stacked sensors

You can choose from 24mp up to 61mp

Click to expand...

its pretty much clear that the market is settling on 61mp as the standard for full frame, much like 24mp for apsc and i guess 100mp for medium format.

Click to expand...

I think forums are settling on 61mp plus. The rest of the world out there earning, not so much.

Click to expand...

not sure what that means

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

Not sure what your point is? Does another brand have a more cohesive range?

Click to expand...

it’s easier to understand who the various full frame canon bodies are for. A bit the same with Nikon - the z8 is for everyone, and the z6iii for working pros who can’t justify the z8. The zf is the enthusiast cam.

Click to expand...

The Z8 is a brick.

Click to expand...

True, that’s Nikons Achilles heal

ray_burnimage said:

The Z6III is behind the 2019 A9II for stills

Click to expand...

yes, even the a9 is a steal used.

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

That said, I think Sony have a gap. Thats a £4000 stacked sensor camera to compete with Z8.

Click to expand...

i agree with this. It would make a lot of sense if Sony launched the a1ii as a 3999 stacked camera, maybe ditching the physical shutter, but adding back in all the recent updates. I don’t think that is going to happen though, I think it will be a 50-60mp global shutter at 7999. And it’s not clear that global shutter sensors are inherently more expensive than stacked.

Click to expand...

Nobody is perfect.

Click to expand...

For now

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

ray_burnimage said:

But, that's it?

Click to expand...

there is nothing really in Sony’s lineup that competes with the r8, zf, and in many ways the r6ii /s5ii / z6iii - but presumably the a7siv or a7v will

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. In fact, for stills, a used A9 for £1100 will beat all those!

Click to expand...

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

SafariBob said:

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

ray_burnimage said:

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor

Click to expand...

I'm stills only so I have no idea on the video front, aside from choice is good?

Click to expand...

it causes fragmentation and artificial limitations in certain cameras, as well as insufficient investment in supporting longevity of the product

Click to expand...

OK?

Click to expand...

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking. If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

Click to expand...

You either need stacked sensors or you dont. Nobody has a better range than Sony.

Click to expand...

pretty much everyone benefits from stacked and gs, especially beginners, who are much more dependent on mind reading af

Click to expand...

I'm assuming this is tongue in cheek. Clearly those NEEDING a stacked sensor know why they need it.....

Click to expand...

Stacked and gs makes everything simpler, thus benefiting all users. Nobody needs it presumably, as it didn’t exist 10 years ago

Click to expand...

For my genre its essential

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

To me, Sony has it all. You have full sized FF bodies or compact ones.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there is little thought towards actual use cases. You often just want the latest cam, irrespective of product line.

Click to expand...

Use cases are the realm of the user to choose. Is there another brand that offers a more dialled in choice?

Click to expand...

I think to a certain extent it is an industry wide problem, but Nikon has been doing better at least since d850, and Sony also released the a99ii

Click to expand...

If you like Nikon body and lens sizes!

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

You have stacked or non stacked sensors

You can choose from 24mp up to 61mp

Click to expand...

its pretty much clear that the market is settling on 61mp as the standard for full frame, much like 24mp for apsc and i guess 100mp for medium format.

Click to expand...

I think forums are settling on 61mp plus. The rest of the world out there earning, not so much.

Click to expand...

not sure what that means

Click to expand...

In the real world, outside of forums, many working photographers think 24mp is the UPPER limit.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

Not sure what your point is? Does another brand have a more cohesive range?

Click to expand...

it’s easier to understand who the various full frame canon bodies are for. A bit the same with Nikon - the z8 is for everyone, and the z6iii for working pros who can’t justify the z8. The zf is the enthusiast cam.

Click to expand...

The Z8 is a brick.

Click to expand...

True, that’s Nikons Achilles heal

Click to expand...

Well, there you go!

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

The Z6III is behind the 2019 A9II for stills

Click to expand...

yes, even the a9 is a steal used.

Click to expand...

Well, there you go..... again!

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

That said, I think Sony have a gap. Thats a £4000 stacked sensor camera to compete with Z8.

Click to expand...

i agree with this. It would make a lot of sense if Sony launched the a1ii as a 3999 stacked camera, maybe ditching the physical shutter, but adding back in all the recent updates. I don’t think that is going to happen though, I think it will be a 50-60mp global shutter at 7999. And it’s not clear that global shutter sensors are inherently more expensive than stacked.

Click to expand...

Nobody is perfect.

Click to expand...

For now

Click to expand...

Nope, no brand is ever perfect for everybody all of the time.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

But, that's it?

Click to expand...

there is nothing really in Sony’s lineup that competes with the r8, zf, and in many ways the r6ii /s5ii / z6iii - but presumably the a7siv or a7v will

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. In fact, for stills, a used A9 for £1100 will beat all those!

Click to expand...

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

Click to expand...

Your choices are yours. Fair enough. Does another brand now have a better range of bodies and lenses for your needs?

their "interesting" habit of selling older models next to the new stuff for yonks; ups that count considerably.

Ron Poelman said:

their "interesting" habit of selling older models next to the new stuff for yonks; ups that count considerably.

Click to expand...

Joking aside, keeping older lines alive at a lower price seems sensible. It gives more price entry point points for folk on a budget, and Sony can use up their parts bin over time rather than scrapping them.

SafariBob said:

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking.

Click to expand...

Didn't have the updated processor. The new Bionz processor is responsible for a lot of the upgrades.

SafariBob said:

If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

Click to expand...

The A1 has been updated, and the a9 is such a specialized camera, why would a pro video person use it?

SafariBob said:

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

Click to expand...

I see it as just the opposite. I know quite a few people who have purchased the "next version of the camera" rather than holding on to the older cameras. Most of the people I discuss this with sold their a7c for the a7c2 or a7cr (I did). Now that aspect does lead to a vibrant used market, but also to

SafariBob said:

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

Click to expand...

You can find plenty of entry level models for around $1000 if you don't need the latest features.

But in the main, the more cameras the more better. Doesn't cost us anymore for Sony to make as many variations in cameras as they desire, why complain about having too many choices?

Next it is all about the sensors (and budgets), and Sony still hasn't made my ideal camera the A1C (with the latest Bionz/Software). But you have choices in sensors:


A7s3 low light video

A93 global shutter

A1 Fast High MP stacked

A7R5 Highest MP Slow

A74 Best compromise of all of the above sensors for less money.

A6700 Excellent performing apsc

And too many 1" sensor cameras to count.

If you have a kit with multiple cameras/needs Sony will meet them. My ideal two camera setup would be the A1(or a7rv) and a6700.

I love discussing gear, but I don't see much merit in complaining about choice.

jhunna said:

SafariBob said:

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking.

Click to expand...

Didn't have the updated processor. The new Bionz processor is responsible for a lot of the upgrades.

Click to expand...

All the early cameras have the same processor.

jhunna said:

jhunna said:

If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

Click to expand...

The A1 has been updated,

Click to expand...

in the end yes, modest update. Is stacking still missing?

jhunna said:

and the a9 is such a specialized camera, why would a pro video person use it?

Click to expand...

it’s actually an awesome video camera. It just lacks many of the features videographers use

jhunna said:

jhunna said:

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

Click to expand...

I see it as just the opposite. I know quite a few people who have purchased the "next version of the camera" rather than holding on to the older cameras. Most of the people I discuss this with sold their a7c for the a7c2 or a7cr (I did). Now that aspect does lead to a vibrant used market, but also to

Click to expand...

there isn’t that much on the used market compared to sales as far as I can tell (subjective opinion)

jhunna said:

jhunna said:

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

Click to expand...

You can find plenty of entry level models for around $1000 if you don't need the latest features.

Click to expand...

used? Any real time tracking enabled camera new for less than $1k?

jhunna said:

But in the main, the more cameras the more better. Doesn't cost us anymore for Sony to make as many variations in cameras as they desire, why complain about having too many choices?

Click to expand...

because Sony tends to release a new camera every time they have a singular new feature and abandon all previous cameras firmware wise. The only real differentiator in the recently released cameras is the sensor, so maybe just base it on that and give all cameras all features?

jhunna said:

Next it is all about the sensors (and budgets), and Sony still hasn't made my ideal camera the A1C (with the latest Bionz/Software). But you have choices in sensors:

A7s3 low light video

A93 global shutter

A1 Fast High MP stacked

A7R5 Highest MP Slow

A74 Best compromise of all of the above sensors for less money.
A6700 Excellent performing apsc

And too many 1" sensor cameras to count.
If you have a kit with multiple cameras/needs Sony will meet them. My ideal two camera setup would be the A1(or a7rv) and a6700.

I love discussing gear, but I don't see much merit in complaining about choice.

Click to expand...

Not complaining per se, and products are sufficiently mature for firmware updates not to be critical, but I do think Sony developers would benefit from a more focused approach, and Sony users from not having to overdefine their use case prior to purchase.

ray_burnimage said:

Joking aside, keeping older lines alive at a lower price seems sensible. It gives more price entry point points for folk on a budget, and Sony can use up their parts bin over time rather than scrapping them.

Click to expand...

would call it resale price maintenance, a crime in some parts. I'ld be an A7RIII owner today if the price had ever come down to a realstic run-out level in OZ.
FWIW. I doubt a "parts bin" ever existed, a fixed quantity of each model is made and that is that. The line is converted to the new model. and remaining stock drip fed down to a hapless third world.

SafariBob said:

tqlla said:

I would cut the A7siii, its not needed with the Fx3 there. I would also cut the A7CR, its slower then the A7Rv.

Sony really needs an entry level, as most people starting arent going to spend $850 for the A6100 with kit lens.

The A7iv is also way too expensive to be entry level. The A7iii is 6 years old and is behind in AF compared to the often cheaper Canon R8.

Click to expand...

I agree.

Click to expand...

Great to see the commentariat cutting out models (A7CR) that they wouldn't personally choose as if reducing choice would make the brand in some way better. Ironically the A7C series is one of Sony's unique offerings - it has no similar competition from anyone - and the reports are that both new A7C cameras are selling.

The A7CR isn't about speed - it's about high res and portability. There's clearly a market for it and that market is differentiated from those seeking faster full size models. A7C series buyers accept the feature set. All good. Thank you Sony.

Cheers, Rod

SafariBob said:

jhunna said:

SafariBob said:

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking.

Click to expand...

Didn't have the updated processor. The new Bionz processor is responsible for a lot of the upgrades.

Click to expand...

All the early cameras have the same processor.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

Click to expand...

The A1 has been updated,

Click to expand...

in the end yes, modest update. Is stacking still missing?

SafariBob said:

and the a9 is such a specialized camera, why would a pro video person use it?

Click to expand...

it’s actually an awesome video camera. It just lacks many of the features videographers use

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

Click to expand...

I see it as just the opposite. I know quite a few people who have purchased the "next version of the camera" rather than holding on to the older cameras. Most of the people I discuss this with sold their a7c for the a7c2 or a7cr (I did). Now that aspect does lead to a vibrant used market, but also to

Click to expand...

there isn’t that much on the used market compared to sales as far as I can tell (subjective opinion)

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

Click to expand...

You can find plenty of entry level models for around $1000 if you don't need the latest features.

Click to expand...

used? Any real time tracking enabled camera new for less than $1k?

SafariBob said:

But in the main, the more cameras the more better. Doesn't cost us anymore for Sony to make as many variations in cameras as they desire, why complain about having too many choices?

Click to expand...

because Sony tends to release a new camera every time they have a singular new feature and abandon all previous cameras firmware wise. The only real differentiator in the recently released cameras is the sensor, so maybe just base it on that and give all cameras all features?

SafariBob said:

Next it is all about the sensors (and budgets), and Sony still hasn't made my ideal camera the A1C (with the latest Bionz/Software). But you have choices in sensors:

A7s3 low light video

A93 global shutter

A1 Fast High MP stacked

A7R5 Highest MP Slow

A74 Best compromise of all of the above sensors for less money.
A6700 Excellent performing apsc

And too many 1" sensor cameras to count.
If you have a kit with multiple cameras/needs Sony will meet them. My ideal two camera setup would be the A1(or a7rv) and a6700.

I love discussing gear, but I don't see much merit in complaining about choice.

Click to expand...

Not complaining per se, and products are sufficiently mature for firmware updates not to be critical, but I do think Sony developers would benefit from a more focused approach, and Sony users from not having to overdefine their use case prior to purchase.

Click to expand...

Sony has the widest choice of bodies and lenses.

Are they perfect? No!

Does another brand have a more rounded set of choices? I'd say no!

Ron Poelman said:

ray_burnimage said:

Joking aside, keeping older lines alive at a lower price seems sensible. It gives more price entry point points for folk on a budget, and Sony can use up their parts bin over time rather than scrapping them.

Click to expand...

would call it resale price maintenance, a crime in some parts. I'ld be an A7RIII owner today if the price had ever come down to a realstic run-out level in OZ.

Click to expand...

Dunno about OZ prices

Ron Poelman said:

FWIW. I doubt a "parts bin" ever existed, a fixed quantity of each model is made and that is that.

Click to expand...

Absolutely no way!!!!!! Sony keeps old models on the market for YEARS!!!! In the UK the A7R II was only discontinued last year!!!!!!

Ron Poelman said:

The line is converted to the new model. and remaining stock drip fed down to a hapless third world.

Click to expand...

Nope!!!!!!

They just have something for everyone.

Rod McD said:

SafariBob said:

tqlla said:

I would cut the A7siii, its not needed with the Fx3 there. I would also cut the A7CR, its slower then the A7Rv.

Sony really needs an entry level, as most people starting arent going to spend $850 for the A6100 with kit lens.

The A7iv is also way too expensive to be entry level. The A7iii is 6 years old and is behind in AF compared to the often cheaper Canon R8.

Click to expand...

I agree.

Click to expand...

Great to see the commentariat cutting out models (A7CR) that they wouldn't personally choose as if reducing choice would make the brand in some way better. Ironically the A7C series is one of Sony's unique offerings - it has no similar competition from anyone - and the reports are that both new A7C cameras are selling.

The A7CR isn't about speed - it's about high res and portability. There's clearly a market for it and that market is differentiated from those seeking faster full size models. A7C series buyers accept the feature set. All good. Thank you Sony.

Cheers, Rod

Click to expand...

I sum it up by saying the A7CR is about options. It is fast enough for sports photos in apsc mode, it has every type of popular video mode except 8k and 4k60p, you can even get raw video is you at an atomos, you can go to a scenic look out and grab a 240MP file without a tripod, and if you have a phone you can store those pictures on your computer from your location.

And when you are done with all of that you can put it in a small bag, and take pictures of your evening on the town with the misses.

SafariBob said:

jhunna said:

SafariBob said:

yes. Why didn’t the a7iii get real time tracking.

Click to expand...

Didn't have the updated processor. The new Bionz processor is responsible for a lot of the upgrades.

Click to expand...

All the early cameras have the same processor.

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

If they had updated the color science of the a7r2 it would have been a viable camera several years longer. The list goes on, see the uproar about the lack of updates on the a1 for example. Why doesn’t the a9 have more pro video options?

Click to expand...

The A1 has been updated,

Click to expand...

in the end yes, modest update. Is stacking still missing?

SafariBob said:

and the a9 is such a specialized camera, why would a pro video person use it?

Click to expand...

it’s actually an awesome video camera. It just lacks many of the features videographers use

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

a lot of these things I personally don’t care about, but it ends up having the opposite effect of what Sony intends. Instead of updating frequently and a vibrant used market, people hold on to bodies for as long as possible to max out the upgrade delta.

Click to expand...

I see it as just the opposite. I know quite a few people who have purchased the "next version of the camera" rather than holding on to the older cameras. Most of the people I discuss this with sold their a7c for the a7c2 or a7cr (I did). Now that aspect does lead to a vibrant used market, but also to

Click to expand...

there isn’t that much on the used market compared to sales as far as I can tell (subjective opinion)

SafariBob said:

SafariBob said:

Yes. I think the a7cii also is good feature wise, and the first entry level Sony without significant compromises, but the entry level is max 1500 for full frame, and really is more in the 999-1199 territory

Click to expand...

You can find plenty of entry level models for around $1000 if you don't need the latest features.

Click to expand...

used? Any real time tracking enabled camera new for less than $1k?

SafariBob said:

But in the main, the more cameras the more better. Doesn't cost us anymore for Sony to make as many variations in cameras as they desire, why complain about having too many choices?

Click to expand...

because Sony tends to release a new camera every time they have a singular new feature and abandon all previous cameras firmware wise. The only real differentiator in the recently released cameras is the sensor, so maybe just base it on that and give all cameras all features?

SafariBob said:

Next it is all about the sensors (and budgets), and Sony still hasn't made my ideal camera the A1C (with the latest Bionz/Software). But you have choices in sensors:

A7s3 low light video

A93 global shutter

A1 Fast High MP stacked

A7R5 Highest MP Slow

A74 Best compromise of all of the above sensors for less money.
A6700 Excellent performing apsc

And too many 1" sensor cameras to count.
If you have a kit with multiple cameras/needs Sony will meet them. My ideal two camera setup would be the A1(or a7rv) and a6700.

I love discussing gear, but I don't see much merit in complaining about choice.

Click to expand...

Not complaining per se, and products are sufficiently mature for firmware updates not to be critical, but I do think Sony developers would benefit from a more focused approach, and Sony users from not having to overdefine their use case prior to purchase.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to use the word complain.

SafariBob said:

Sony seems to be making an endless number of cameras within what is ostensibl one segment:

video-centric:

a7siii - supposedly sensitivity

fx3

fx30

zv e10

zv e1

imo, there is room for two products here, zv e10 and an a7siii in a handicam form factor.

photocentric:

a7rv - essentially a portrait camera now

a7cr - landscape and tripod

a1 - overkill

a9 - pro sports/ photojournalism (1D /D6)

it’s hard to understand what truly differentiates the a1 and a9 lines, and you are presumably likely to buy the latest release. It’s also a bit hard to understand why one might buy an a7rv at this stage, but everything depends on pricing Offcourse. Not clear to me why a9 line doesn’t offer more in the way of video, but not an expert in this.

true hybrids:

a7iv - more of a budget pro

a7cii - essentially Sonys entry level offering

Again, a7cii seems to outshine a7iv in most regards.

ultimately, you are left with the impression that a7cii and a9 (or a potential a1ii) almost cover all bases, while segments such as more vintage (zf or original a7), true entry level (canon r8) and potentially monochrome is left unserved.

many of the differentiating points seem to essentially be firmware, and then I think they could go back to the playmemories model or paid upgrades.

Click to expand...

A1 - high-res. A9 - high frame. The distinction from A9/A9II and A1 is a bit weirder but justified with the A9II coming in $2000 USD lower than the A1. The A9III truly differentiates it by having a GS and 120fps. Do you want/need 120 fps, or higher res? For most wildlife applications, the A1 is the superior application. For sports and very fast action, the A9III is superior.