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Sony Histograms, Zebras and Highlight warnings Sony A1 experience

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Interceptor121

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Today I had time to do some tests in my light box. Apologies for the soft images the lens is super close and the edges blur a lot.

I wanted to stress the validity of the Zebra +109 highlight warning as well as the highlight warning in playback

WIth controlled light I took several shots as follows in multimeter with creative look Standard no picture profile

The results were as follows, as common factor ALL shots shows highlight warning on the camera playback.

I then imported the RAW and JPEG in lightroom and applied the color style ST to try and match the camera.

First observation adobe lightroom images, net of color differences are 0.25 ev darrker than camera jpeg. This is consistent with DxOmark observed ISO delta of 0.5 while adobe is applying a 0.25 correction.

First sample an image taken so that the zebra would not show at all at +109. Multi meter reading -0.3 ev



SOOC
SOOC





RAW
RAW

You will notice that distortion correction is not consistent either but thats another story

Here the same with adjustment of +0.25 ev which brings it closer to the SOOC



RAW +0.25
RAW +0.25

You can see there is no clipping in either despite the camera is already issuing highlight warning in playback

Second set is the image with meter at 0 Ev



SOOC 0 Ev
SOOC 0 Ev

You can see the small highlight warning which showed as very little zebra in the EVF



RAW 0 Ev +0.25 ev
RAW 0 Ev +0.25 ev

The RAW file however even with the additional 0.25 Ev is not clipping

I now increase exposure until I have a bit more zebra on the white bar



SOOC 0.3 Ev zebra on the white bar
SOOC 0.3 Ev zebra on the white bar

The raw file still not clipping

RAW filw 0.3 Ev +0.25
RAW filw 0.3 Ev +0.25

At +2/3 EV I get lots of zebras and clipping in the jpeg



SOOC 2/3 Ev lots of zebra
SOOC 2/3 Ev lots of zebra

There is now a little clipping on the RAW but only if I apply the 0.25 ev adjustment



RAW 2/3 Ev +0.25
RAW 2/3 Ev +0.25

Here a shot where the whole screen was full of zebra stripes



SOOC +1 Ev
SOOC +1 Ev

and corresponding RAW showing some more clipping



RAW +1Ev with 0.25 applied
RAW +1Ev with 0.25 applied



If you are familiar with baseline exposure correction you know that adobe increase the brightness of raw files of 1 stop and increase constrast lowering the black point it also applies a curve. If you reset those adjustments you see that even the +1 Ev file was not clipped



LIghtroom reset of presets and camera baseline
LIghtroom reset of presets and camera baseline

In summary if you are shooting a scene with black and white like the test chart here that has some dynamic range and you use zebra not to clip you may be over 1 stop below the clipping point.

This creates some challenges for those users that believe in ETTR as clearly the camera metering system is not well set and gives false positives.

In this instance a bracketing of 3 shots -1 0 +1 would have made the +1 shot the favourite and therefore lacking any better camera tools euristic approaches are preferrable

Other camera may exhibit different behaviours as manufaturers and software setting differs

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what sensitivity did you set the zebras at ?
 
As I understand it, and I might be wrong, the histogram readings (and therefore the zebras and clipping) are based on the jpegs. Therefore, if you are shooting RAW, you have some headroom left.

As I understand it, and again, I might be wrong and I'd welcome a Sony guru contributing to this, you can adjust the Sony inbuilt histogram to more accurately reflect RAW by using the DRO settings. Adding DRO changes the dynamic range of the jpegs so that the reading can be set so they are closer to what you will get from RAW. DRO settings only affect jpegs so your RAW files wont be altered. I don't know what the appropriate DRO settings should be to do this.
 
anfat said:
you have to use raw digger to see the real clipping of the raw
Click to expand...
The point of the post is to understand the exposure aids when shooting not afterwards as there are claims zebra can be used for ETTR it does not seem the case

I will download a demo version of Rawdigger to see what it says

I also do not know if adobe has a logic for highlight recovery which cleans some of the clipping info in case one channel clips and the other not

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Last edited:
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
what sensitivity did you set the zebras at ?
Click to expand...
As per post 109+
Click to expand...
thats not sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Zebra has not sensitivity it has levels and so does peaking on my A1

The level for low is 109+ there is nothing higher

If you refer to exact zebra values there is a range but this is to nail a specific exposure i.e. skin at 65% +-5 not relevant for clipping monitoring where you want low limit that has no range

--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
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If you want to get in touch don't send me a PM rather contact me directly at my website/social media
 
Mike Fewster said:
As I understand it, and I might be wrong, the histogram readings (and therefore the zebras and clipping) are based on the jpegs. Therefore, if you are shooting RAW, you have some headroom left.

As I understand it, and again, I might be wrong and I'd welcome a Sony guru contributing to this, you can adjust the Sony inbuilt histogram to more accurately reflect RAW by using the DRO settings. Adding DRO changes the dynamic range of the jpegs so that the reading can be set so they are closer to what you will get from RAW. DRO settings only affect jpegs so your RAW files wont be altered. I don't know what the appropriate DRO settings should be to do this.
Click to expand...
DRO affects raw as it changes exposure

I revisited this topic as there was discussion on zebra and ettr which in my view is not a good combination
 
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
what sensitivity did you set the zebras at ?
Click to expand...
As per post 109+
Click to expand...
thats not sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Zebra has not sensitivity it has levels and so does peaking on my A1

The level for low is 109+ there is nothing higher

If you refer to exact zebra values there is a range but this is to nail a specific exposure i.e. skin at 65% +-5 not relevant for clipping monitoring where you want low limit that has no range
Click to expand...
its the same as adjusting focus peaking for a more precise measurement.
 
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
what sensitivity did you set the zebras at ?
Click to expand...
As per post 109+
Click to expand...
thats not sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Zebra has not sensitivity it has levels and so does peaking on my A1

The level for low is 109+ there is nothing higher

If you refer to exact zebra values there is a range but this is to nail a specific exposure i.e. skin at 65% +-5 not relevant for clipping monitoring where you want low limit that has no range
Click to expand...
its the same as adjusting focus peaking for a more precise measurement.
Click to expand...
also from my vast experimenting in the past the in camera histogram and blinkies are perfectly reflected using fast raw viewer and ACR and within there default programed 0.25 stop margin of error. which you can turn off if you like..
 
Interceptor121 said:
Mike Fewster said:
As I understand it, and I might be wrong, the histogram readings (and therefore the zebras and clipping) are based on the jpegs. Therefore, if you are shooting RAW, you have some headroom left.

As I understand it, and again, I might be wrong and I'd welcome a Sony guru contributing to this, you can adjust the Sony inbuilt histogram to more accurately reflect RAW by using the DRO settings. Adding DRO changes the dynamic range of the jpegs so that the reading can be set so they are closer to what you will get from RAW. DRO settings only affect jpegs so your RAW files wont be altered. I don't know what the appropriate DRO settings should be to do this.
Click to expand...
DRO affects raw as it changes exposure
Click to expand...
But the answer is complicated. Sony has always been coy in explaining just what DRO does. I'm going back many years here, but I seem to remember that Sony first licenced and eventually bought the rights to the tech from British firm.

Here's more discussion on it.

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

In my experience, and from what I have read over the years, DRO makes no difference at all to RAW images unless you use processing that takes it into account. The question here is whether or not clipping warnings are based on RAW or jpeg. I'm suggesting that they are based on the jpeg files, which is what you see in the evf even if you are shooting only RAW. I'm also suggesting that DRO settings change the clipping indicators because they are reading from the adjusted jpegs. ie., the dro settings can be used to give more accurate clipping indication, especially of highlights, without changing the rAW file.

But I'd welcome more input on this from others. If I remember correctly, and I'm going back to Sony A700 era, this question was asked specifically of Sony and no definitive answer was forthcoming.
Interceptor121 said:
I revisited this topic as there was discussion on zebra and ettr which in my view is not a good combination
Click to expand...
I agree. I have always wanted a definitive answer on the use of DRO, RAW and clipping readings.
 
Interceptor121 said:
blue_skies said:
Doesn't look like much has changed yet:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53544737

Zebra's for video, histogram for photos.

Zebra's over 100 for photos is not the way to go...
Click to expand...
I did this test because zebra 109+ were mentioned as a tool for ETTR there are even videos on YouTube of Sony ambassadors on this subject

my understanding corroborated by this test is that with no picture profile you are just using a standard sRGB gamma curve. The 109+ only shows the full rgb values instead of video but is still limited to the 10 stops of the srgb curve

the live histogram is affected by the same issues so it is not reliable either as of course both zebra and live histogram are monochrome so only consider luminance not saturation of individual channels

I will post the RGB histograms the camera produces in playback later we can see what those say
Click to expand...
Dpreview addresses the HLG capture mode, https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7r-mark-iii-review/4/, which essentially boosts HDR for video. But here you have to use the HLG profile.

Without a profile, you need 107+, 108+, or now 109+: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4259130
  • Ciriaco states: "The key is the zebras level to setup: 107+/108+ when no picture profile is enabled (or for Picture Profile 2 with its default gamma); 95+ for picture profiles using HLG2 gamma and 100+ for HLG/HLG3."
And he shows some results.

I would refer his description against some of the video gurus and the message boards post, and, indeed, do your own tests. I also read the comments from those that tout that zebras (at 109+) are better than bracketing.

Afaik, videographers usually set the video to the exposure range that they aim for. This will result in different shoots having the same exposure level on the subject (e.g. faces). In this mode, you use STD range + DELTA and the zebras should show up on your subject.

Lower Limit, especially 109+, got popular because it supposedly catches highlight clipping in the image better than the RGB. I am not sure, but the RGB I believe goes through the metering mode (spot measures in sensor), whereas the Zebras are applied in the EVF display, and cover the entire image. At least, that is what I remember users requesting a long time ago.

In this mode, when Zebras appear your highlights are clipping, so avoiding zebras translates into ETTR without overexposure, and there are numerous videos on this topic, as well as chat forums, that contest that this works for them. The noise spread is also a tad big, so do your research. The initial application, video exposure without clipping, works in the various slog formats. In RAW it should also work, but I wouldn't trust JPG (in camera conversions).

But ETTR in these 'almost' 'iso-less' cameras in RAW format might be overkill. In most (for sure daytime) images, there is sufficient HDR in the image to lift the shadows, and normal (under) exposure would do the trick. In video this is trickier to do, hence the zebras. If you develop from RAW, it may even be preferred to always underexpose, as one region that clips can destroy the entire photograph.

Let us know if your experiments for 109+ are conclusive!
 
blue_skies said:
Dpreview addresses the HLG capture mode, https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7r-mark-iii-review/4/, which essentially boosts HDR for video. But here you have to use the HLG profile.
Click to expand...
A rather thorough treatment of a variation of DPReview's hybrid log-gamma method (including numerous examples) was posted here:

Loading…

www.fredmiranda.com

The downside is that it doesn't work in silent-shutter mode (at least on my A7R III).

The settings can work like this:
  • viewfinder Gamma Display Assist = Auto
  • picture profile = PP10 (which defaults to HLG2)
  • zebras = Lower Limit 95+
This works best with the metering mode set to full screen (or matrix).

With these settings, the viewfinder displays zebras that correspond to overexposure as shown in the raw histograms in FastRawViewer. (The histograms displayed on the camer's replay, though, are wildly different, and the images are very low contrast.) When I process the resulting images in Capture One they are quite similar to those made with the zebras at like levels with a neutral Creative Style and zebra lower limit = 109+, although the exposure setting needed to get to those zebra levels may differ.
 
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
Interceptor121 said:
A74Me said:
what sensitivity did you set the zebras at ?
Click to expand...
As per post 109+
Click to expand...
thats not sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Zebra has not sensitivity it has levels and so does peaking on my A1

The level for low is 109+ there is nothing higher

If you refer to exact zebra values there is a range but this is to nail a specific exposure i.e. skin at 65% +-5 not relevant for clipping monitoring where you want low limit that has no range
Click to expand...
its the same as adjusting focus peaking for a more precise measurement.
Click to expand...
it does not exist for highlight clipping on the A1 and I think on most models

Zebra is based on luminance there is not such a thing to sensitivity a pixel is or isn't a certain RGB value
 
bpatient said:
blue_skies said:
Dpreview addresses the HLG capture mode, https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7r-mark-iii-review/4/, which essentially boosts HDR for video. But here you have to use the HLG profile.
Click to expand...
A rather thorough treatment of a variation of DPReview's hybrid log-gamma method (including numerous examples) was posted here:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1532253/0

The downside is that it doesn't work in silent-shutter mode (at least on my A7R III).

The settings can work like this:
  • viewfinder Gamma Display Assist = Auto
  • picture profile = PP10 (which defaults to HLG2)
  • zebras = Lower Limit 95+
This works best with the metering mode set to full screen (or matrix).

With these settings, the viewfinder displays zebras that correspond to overexposure as shown in the raw histograms in FastRawViewer. (The histograms displayed on the camer's replay, though, are wildly different, and the images are very low contrast.) When I process the resulting images in Capture One they are quite similar to those made with the zebras at like levels with a neutral Creative Style and zebra lower limit = 109+, although the exposure setting needed to get to those zebra levels may differ.
Click to expand...
It is not an issue to accomplish metering of highlights clipping using a picture profile I do this with slog3 all the time. The gamma curve is compressed and iso is shifted three stops

however while this is ok for controlled light set it doesn’t work in real life in ambient light and changing conditions so having a tool to expose better when you need it without changing camera settings is of value

with regards to natural creative style it doesn’t change the luma clipping point only the saturation is a bit less I measured this in the light ox and concluded natural is not worth it
 
As suggested I have downloaded rawdigger and checked for over and underexposure with this tool

The first shot where the Zebra were not showing and the meter was reading -0.3 shows up with no over clipping and some under exposure in the red and blue channel which i guess it is fine as that is meant to be black. The grey band is generally underexposed

-0.3 ev
-0.3 ev

The shot at zero show 0.1% clipping on green and still 2.5% underexposure now on the red channel

0 ev
0 ev

The next shot is the +0.3 Ev which did show zebra in the jpeg under exposure is now 0.3% only on red and over is 0.1% on green

Note the clipping is the background of the lightbox

+0.3 ev
+0.3 ev

Next shot has 0 underexposure however the clipping is now on the important area of the image

0.6 ev
0.6 ev

And finally the +1 is badly clipped

+1
+1

In summary the results of rawdigger and ACR agree

The first image has no highight clipping but the image is dark

The second image that was automatically produced by the camera and had some zebra showing has very small clipping and the underexposure is minimal

The third 0.3 Ev has some overexposure of the green but non on red and blue and to me is still acceptable in fact I would say the best one

Raw histograms of the 3 images

0 ev
0 ev

7322bdc796764e65bb3f68b076d0f239.jpg.png

0.3 ev
0.3 ev

In summary it appears that zebra 109+ does a good job at showing overexposure but of course the camera does not have any tools to show underesposure

It also appears the camera does a good job with the meter which is something I was already aware of course multmeter does not know what the subject is in the photo

It also seems a bad idea to take shots when the zebra 109 are on any important area of your frame

This of course simply based on the test shot in the light box real life conditions may vary

If you wanted to draw conclusion on this is that trusting the zebra 109+ blindly does ensure highlights don't clip however darks may clip and you don't know and the image is overall underexposed

So in general as long as you get those zebra in the parts of the image that do not matter you can go up a little but overall the 109+ appears reliable but I would not call it ETTR as the darks were indeed clipping

Having zebras all over the image does not appear a particularly good idea

--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/
If you want to get in touch don't send me a PM rather contact me directly at my website/social media
 
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