Sony A7R V ETTR

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

anfat said:

What are the best settings for a good ETTR with the Sony A7R V? Thanks

Click to expand...

Do your own tests. Start with setting Zebra 109+ for highlights. Expose so that the brightest white still has some detail after post processing, that is, no zebra pattern visible in the viewfinder, but very close.

Sure, there might be rare situations with light quality that doesn't match this perfectly, but this is about experience.

For jpg, expose so the files look good straight out of the camera, about 1.5-2 stop less than for raw and ETTR. You can't have both in a single exposure.

Click to expand...

My A1 has only 100+ for zebra without a picture profile

Click to expand...

Then use 100 and add 1.5-2 stop exposure.

Member said:

are you sure the a7rv has 109? This would typically be available for altered gamma curves for video only

Click to expand...

This is common for most Sony A7 series cameras. Even the older A7rIII has this setting that is not bound to any profiles. You need to go to the Zebra > C1-Custom menu to set values higher than 100, for ultimate highight control with raw, set lower limit to 109+ value.

Note that the light meter reads reflected light, not the light value from the light source. This is why I totally skip the light meter reding and use Zebra only for much more reliable and consistently exposed files. I have done this for many years now, from my first mirrorless, the original A7.

Click to expand...

Even my 2017 A9 has 109+.

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

anfat said:

What are the best settings for a good ETTR with the Sony A7R V? Thanks

Click to expand...

Do your own tests. Start with setting Zebra 109+ for highlights. Expose so that the brightest white still has some detail after post processing, that is, no zebra pattern visible in the viewfinder, but very close.

Sure, there might be rare situations with light quality that doesn't match this perfectly, but this is about experience.

For jpg, expose so the files look good straight out of the camera, about 1.5-2 stop less than for raw and ETTR. You can't have both in a single exposure.

Click to expand...

My A1 has only 100+ for zebra without a picture profile

Click to expand...

Then use 100 and add 1.5-2 stop exposure.

Member said:

are you sure the a7rv has 109? This would typically be available for altered gamma curves for video only

Click to expand...

This is common for most Sony A7 series cameras. Even the older A7rIII has this setting that is not bound to any profiles. You need to go to the Zebra > C1-Custom menu to set values higher than 100, for ultimate highight control with raw, set lower limit to 109+ value.

Note that the light meter reads reflected light, not the light value from the light source. This is why I totally skip the light meter reding and use Zebra only for much more reliable and consistently exposed files. I have done this for many years now, from my first mirrorless, the original A7.

Click to expand...

I have checked the settings you are correct there is a custom that can go to 109%

However on a standard gamma curve the difference between 100% and 109% is around 0.3 stops.

In addition you can use zebra only with live view on otherwise the results are incorrect

There are no in camera tools that can tell you how much headroom the camera has, there have been attempt using UNIWB but is really not practical on the field

At the end you do exposure bracketing and if you take say 5 shots at 1 stop you cover most situations.

Sony cameras tend to dig very well into the shadows so exposure to the right is not really fundamental. The cameras have very little highlight protection built in around 0.3-0.4 stops. Effectively using 109% you are eliminating that protection but not necessarily exposing to the right.

Using my A1 I have managed to extract plenty of dynamic range from most scene I do not see the need for extensive bracketing while on micro four third I was shooting landscape with bracketing all the time

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

anfat said:

What are the best settings for a good ETTR with the Sony A7R V? Thanks

Click to expand...

Do your own tests. Start with setting Zebra 109+ for highlights. Expose so that the brightest white still has some detail after post processing, that is, no zebra pattern visible in the viewfinder, but very close.

Sure, there might be rare situations with light quality that doesn't match this perfectly, but this is about experience.

For jpg, expose so the files look good straight out of the camera, about 1.5-2 stop less than for raw and ETTR. You can't have both in a single exposure.

Click to expand...

My A1 has only 100+ for zebra without a picture profile

Click to expand...

Then use 100 and add 1.5-2 stop exposure.

Interceptor121 said:

are you sure the a7rv has 109? This would typically be available for altered gamma curves for video only

Click to expand...

This is common for most Sony A7 series cameras. Even the older A7rIII has this setting that is not bound to any profiles. You need to go to the Zebra > C1-Custom menu to set values higher than 100, for ultimate highight control with raw, set lower limit to 109+ value.

Note that the light meter reads reflected light, not the light value from the light source. This is why I totally skip the light meter reding and use Zebra only for much more reliable and consistently exposed files. I have done this for many years now, from my first mirrorless, the original A7.

Click to expand...

I have checked the settings you are correct there is a custom that can go to 109%

However on a standard gamma curve the difference between 100% and 109% is around 0.3 stops.

Click to expand...

Can't be correct for the white point, which is essential for highlights. You can add at least 1-1.5 more exposure that what the histogram indicate.

Interceptor121 said:

In addition you can use zebra only with live view on otherwise the results are incorrect

Click to expand...

We use live view all the time, except for flash photography, or what?

Interceptor121 said:

There are no in camera tools that can tell you how much headroom the camera has, there have been attempt using UNIWB but is really not practical on the field

Click to expand...

Real world tests will learn you the limits to know, and also what is acceptable for your photography. Take a pragmatic approach to exposure, and don't overthink. ;-)

Interceptor121 said:

At the end you do exposure bracketing and if you take say 5 shots at 1 stop you cover most situations.

Click to expand...

But bracketing doesn't work at all for action, and many other types of photography. Better set correct exposure before you shoot.

Interceptor121 said:

Sony cameras tend to dig very well into the shadows so exposure to the right is not really fundamental. The cameras have very little highlight protection built in around 0.3-0.4 stops. Effectively using 109% you are eliminating that protection but not necessarily exposing to the right.

Click to expand...

If you want to take advantage of the dynamic range, expose "to the right". This will give you 1-1-5 stop less noise, and you will also go 1-1-5 stop deper into extreme shadow detail.

Interceptor121 said:

Using my A1 I have managed to extract plenty of dynamic range from most scene I do not see the need for extensive bracketing while on micro four third I was shooting landscape with bracketing all the time.

Click to expand...

Nothing beats setting optimum exposure before you start shooting. For landscapes you have plenty of time to set the ideal exposure.

There is a published table for rec709 which is what the camera display uses and 109% is 0.3ev

In essence 109% says to the camera to look at the full display

and no I don’t use live view all the time as otherwise you can’t compose the shot in high dynamic range scenes where you have dark and bright

a landscape scene that is bright doesn’t actually have lots of dynamic range neither noise issues

Bracketing is the only way to push the limit of the camera. In camera tools are useless and mostly good for video or studio

Interceptor121 said:

There is a published table for rec709 which is what the camera display uses and 109% is 0.3ev

Click to expand...

But this is a profile, not the defaut setting used for stills.

Interceptor121 said:

and no I don’t use live view all the time as otherwise you can’t compose the shot in high dynamic range scenes where you have dark and bright.

Click to expand...

Still there are stategies for setting the optimum exposure withiut using bracketing.

Interceptor121 said:

a landscape scene that is bright doesn’t actually have lots of dynamic range neither noise issues.

Click to expand...

The challenging scenes are high contrast scenes, like sunit and deep shadow areas in the same frame, sunrise/sunsets, and night scenes with artificial light. For ordinary landscapes, we don't need or use all the dynamic range.

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is the only way to push the limit of the camera.

Click to expand...

I don't agree. As said, there are many strategies to set the correct exposure. You could even use an exteernal incident light meter, without worrying about the reflection from the surface of the subject/scene.

Interceptor121 said:

In camera tools are useless and mostly good for video or studio.

Click to expand...

No. You're just limiting your mindset unnecessarily here.

With the in-camera tools I am within 0.5 to 0.3 stop for "safety zone" both for stills/raw and video capture, and this is as goo as you can get it when you want to take full benefit of the dynamic range of the sensor and also ensure as low noise as possible.

No the still profiles with picture profile cap at 109 as absolute max and that is based on a gamma curve as displays are not linear

There have been long discussions about taw exposure but there is no solution using the display that is about middle grey again non linear

you can find some strategies for scenes that you know but a recipe doesn’t exist

for dynamic range testing in fact you set an exposure then bracket iso and calculate snr

this is a long term issues of exposure metering that continues even in the mirrorless world

in general i find sony exposures a bit dark so you can push 1 or 2 thirds or if you want permanently set an offset but at the end there’s not much in it

the sony cameras have more dynamic range that a displayed image can hold which is at best 10 stops net of hdr imaging so your focus move to noise in the shadows but again the sensor is really competent

try bracketing exposures in 3rds and you will see it matches your 109 but of course it goes further

i think ettr is a really dated concept and can lead to lots of effort for nothing because it interferes with composition and can be easily beaten by bracketing

a default increase of exposure of 1/3 is generally free of side effects but also immaterial in terms of noise improvement

Interceptor121 said:

you can find some strategies for scenes that you know but a recipe doesn’t exist

Click to expand...

The strategies can easily and precicely be described This makes it a recipe.

Interceptor121 said:

for dynamic range testing in fact you set an exposure then bracket iso and calculate snr

Click to expand...

Or just read the Bill Claff/phtons to photos curves!

Interceptor121 said:

the sony cameras have more dynamic range that a displayed image can hold which is at best 10 stops net of hdr imaging so your focus move to noise in the shadows but again the sensor is really competent

Click to expand...

The viewfinder/sceen view is not the final raw file.

Interceptor121 said:

try bracketing exposures in 3rds and you will see it matches your 109 but of course it goes further

Click to expand...

As said, bracketing is not an option for most of my work. This will only work for static scenes. Other than that, I find braceted exposures a waste when I can get it right with just one exposure - less files to go trough at post processing.

Interceptor121 said:

i think ettr is a really dated concept and can lead to lots of effort for nothing because it interferes with composition and can be easily beaten by bracketing

Click to expand...

Not at all. It is a well proven and excellent method for those of us who want to keep as much dynamic range and/or little noise as possible for any scene/subject for our raw files.

Bracketing is for unsure photographers.

Interceptor121 said:

a default increase of exposure of 1/3 is generally free of side effects but also immaterial in terms of noise improvement

Click to expand...

Auto exposure often leads to way more errors than 0.5 to 1 stop, and will make a visibe difference if dynamic range and/or noise is an issue.

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

you can find some strategies for scenes that you know but a recipe doesn’t exist

Click to expand...

The strategies can easily and precicely be described This makes it a recipe.

Member said:

for dynamic range testing in fact you set an exposure then bracket iso and calculate snr

Click to expand...

Or just read the Bill Claff/phtons to photos curves!

Member said:

the sony cameras have more dynamic range that a displayed image can hold which is at best 10 stops net of hdr imaging so your focus move to noise in the shadows but again the sensor is really competent

Click to expand...

The viewfinder/sceen view is not the final raw file.

Member said:

try bracketing exposures in 3rds and you will see it matches your 109 but of course it goes further

Click to expand...

As said, bracketing is not an option for most of my work. This will only work for static scenes. Other than that, I find braceted exposures a waste when I can get it right with just one exposure - less files to go trough at post processing.

Member said:

i think ettr is a really dated concept and can lead to lots of effort for nothing because it interferes with composition and can be easily beaten by bracketing

Click to expand...

Not at all. It is a well proven and excellent method for those of us who want to keep as much dynamic range and/or little noise as possible for any scene/subject for our raw files.

Bracketing is for unsure photographers.

Member said:

a default increase of exposure of 1/3 is generally free of side effects but also immaterial in terms of noise improvement

Click to expand...

Auto exposure often leads to way more errors than 0.5 to 1 stop, and will make a visibe difference if dynamic range and/or noise is an issue.

Click to expand...

I have given Bill several data set for collaboration I know pretty well know how things work

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time. Besides I never suggested auto exposure is a tool either.

Normally I would now go take some example that demolish the theory of your 109% which by the way you can find out yourself if you look at how a gamma curve works, but as someone recently said I am at a stage in life that if someone wants to believe red is blue that's just great and move on

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time.

Click to expand...

Well, more than ten years with using zebra, also for pretty technical stuff, real world experience and results tells that this is a very good tool when you want consistent results and less time consuming post processing.

Interceptor121 said:

Normally I would now go take some example that demolish the theory of your 109% which by the way you can find out yourself if you look at how a gamma curve works, but as someone recently said I am at a stage in life that if someone wants to believe red is blue that's just great and move on

Click to expand...

There are different tools, and using zebra is great when you want to expose close to burned highlights, or to differ between highlighs and shiny highlights. This works within a 0.3 to 0.5 stop "security range" for the white point of the raw files. I find this excellent when we want to take advantage of the full data range from the sensor. As said earlier, this is about as good as you get it.

That bracketing does the job, doesn't mean that other tools can't be reliable and very helpful when setting the optimal exposure. But you have to know the tools.

Also note that the difference for highlight exposure between Zebra 100 and 109+ is a tad more than 1.5 stop. Just set up the values for your camera and try this for yourself! Better than posting false info.

So there are two ways to do this: the quick'n'easy and the accurate. The histogram is based on jpg, useless for raw. A quick and easy solution is to set +2EV exposure compensation. With my a7 iii and a7 iv this tended to be a good approximation of etty

Now if you want to be accurate and are shooting raw only, you can get raw highlight clipping. The trick is to switch the camera's picture profile to an HLG profile and set zebras to 100+. This will show you raw highlight clipping, not jpg.

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time. Besides I never suggested auto exposure is a tool either.

Click to expand...

While you don't have a raw histogram, Sony bodies with an HLG picture profile and 100+ zebras will show you raw highlight clipping. Its been pretty reliable for me.

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome

them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time.

Click to expand...

Well, more than ten years with using zebra, also for pretty technical stuff, real world experience and results tells that this is a very good tool when you want consistent results and less time consuming post processing.

Member said:

Normally I would now go take some example that demolish the theory of your 109% which by the way you can find out yourself if you look at how a gamma curve works, but as someone recently said I am at a stage in life that if someone wants to believe red is blue that's just great and move on

Click to expand...

There are different tools, and using zebra is great when you want to expose close to burned highlights, or to differ between highlighs and shiny highlights. This works within a 0.3 to 0.5 stop "security range" for the white point of the raw files. I find this excellent when we want to take advantage of the full data range from the sensor. As said earlier, this is about as good as you get it.

That bracketing does the job, doesn't mean that other tools can't be reliable and very helpful when setting the optimal exposure. But you have to know the tools.

Also note that the difference for highlight exposure between Zebra 100 and 109+ is a tad more than 1.5 stop. Just set up the values for your camera and try this for yourself! Better than posting false info.

Click to expand...

Sorry but what you are saying is incorrect and complete non sense

Zebra have been using since forever to expose video (not stills not raws) together with other tools like false colour, histograms, waveforms

Zebra is together with luminance histogram one of the worse tools to judge exposure.

The reason is that luminance taken from an RGB signal (or sensor) is a sum of 3 channels and one of the channels may be clipped while the overall sum is still not clipping. So zebra for photography are not a good idea and on the field for video are only used if you don't have anything else. Normally you do not set zebra to more than 100% because you may clip one of the channels even before.

Luminance histograms have the same issue while RGB histograms are better. This is why tools like UNIWB advocate equalising the white balance so that the luminance histogram which is available when shooting is more in check.


If you use UNIWB you can try to have ETTR a bit more say like that.

Now for Zebras those are based on a very simple function





this is rec709 which is what the camera display uses.

If you set L to 1.09 you get a value of 1.043 which is 4.3% or log2(1.043/1)=0.061stops higher

In reality the 109% comes from the original discussion about legal and video IRE level. The legal level limit bit codes to 16-235 instead of using the full range. Whatever the coding precision (and the display is not more than 8 bits anyway on cameras) the delta between full and legal range is around 0.2 Ev (960-64=9.8 Ev vs log2(1024)=10.

This is what the zebra is for and again one of the channels may have clipped so zebra is the poor videographer tool for exposure

I have seen some videos with title Sony Zebra 109+ for raw photographers which make magic statement about 109%

You can also prove that yourself. Take your camera with zebra at 100% and get the clip point. Then switch to 109% and see that clipping occurs at 1/3 more nowhere near 1 or 2 stops when using a standard curve

I am checking out on this as I have already been reprimanded for addressing other similar situations however people need to be careful to say other people post false information when they themselves don't know more



--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/
If you want to get in touch don't send me a PM rather contact me directly at my website/social media

liopleurodon said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time. Besides I never suggested auto exposure is a tool either.

Click to expand...

While you don't have a raw histogram, Sony bodies with an HLG picture profile and 100+ zebras will show you raw highlight clipping. Its been pretty reliable for me.

Click to expand...

HLG and LOG apply a log curve to the gamma. They are in fact correct however this changes the camera gain and sends post processing tools nuts

Still luminance does not mean one of the RGB channels did not clip earlier and yet the luminance zebra did not catch it

You need RGB tools or histograms to understand if you are clipping or not

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome

them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time.

Click to expand...

Well, more than ten years with using zebra, also for pretty technical stuff, real world experience and results tells that this is a very good tool when you want consistent results and less time consuming post processing.

Interceptor121 said:

Normally I would now go take some example that demolish the theory of your 109% which by the way you can find out yourself if you look at how a gamma curve works, but as someone recently said I am at a stage in life that if someone wants to believe red is blue that's just great and move on

Click to expand...

There are different tools, and using zebra is great when you want to expose close to burned highlights, or to differ between highlighs and shiny highlights. This works within a 0.3 to 0.5 stop "security range" for the white point of the raw files. I find this excellent when we want to take advantage of the full data range from the sensor. As said earlier, this is about as good as you get it.

That bracketing does the job, doesn't mean that other tools can't be reliable and very helpful when setting the optimal exposure. But you have to know the tools.

Also note that the difference for highlight exposure between Zebra 100 and 109+ is a tad more than 1.5 stop. Just set up the values for your camera and try this for yourself! Better than posting false info.

Click to expand...

Sorry but what you are saying is incorrect and complete non sense

Zebra have been using since forever to expose video (not stills not raws) together with other tools like false colour, histograms, waveforms

Zebra is together with luminance histogram one of the worse tools to judge exposure.

The reason is that luminance taken from an RGB signal (or sensor) is a sum of 3 channels and one of the channels may be clipped while the overall sum is still not clipping. So zebra for photography are not a good idea and on the field for video are only used if you don't have anything else. Normally you do not set zebra to more than 100% because you may clip one of the channels even before.

Luminance histograms have the same issue while RGB histograms are better. This is why tools like UNIWB advocate equalising the white balance so that the luminance histogram which is available when shooting is more in check.

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/uniwb/index_en.htm

If you use UNIWB you can try to have ETTR a bit more say like that.

Now for Zebras those are based on a very simple function

this is rec709 which is what the camera display uses.

If you set L to 1.09 you get a value of 1.043 which is 4.3% or log2(1.043/1)=0.061stops higher

In reality the 109% comes from the original discussion about legal and video IRE level. The legal level limit bit codes to 16-235 instead of using the full range. Whatever the coding precision (and the display is not more than 8 bits anyway on cameras) the delta between full and legal range is around 0.2 Ev (960-64=9.8 Ev vs log2(1024)=10.

This is what the zebra is for and again one of the channels may have clipped so zebra is the poor videographer tool for exposure

I have seen some videos with title Sony Zebra 109+ for raw photographers which make magic statement about 109%

You can also prove that yourself. Take your camera with zebra at 100% and get the clip point. Then switch to 109% and see that clipping occurs at 1/3 more nowhere near 1 or 2 stops when using a standard curve

I am checking out on this as I have already been reprimanded for addressing other similar situations however people need to be careful to say other people post false information when they themselves don't know more

Click to expand...

Exposure is about the amount of light hitting the sensor, and highlight detail is about not expose to white without detail. The sensitivity range of the sensor is what we have to deal with. Then we can apply wathever curve we want afterwards, and tone map whatever suits the results best.

When using zebra 109+ there is not clipping of color, except for some situations with very warm or cold light. As an aware photographer, you will soon learn the exceptions to know, so taht you can add some extra headroom for the color data.
The best with this method: It is blistering fast, with reliable results, and you don't waste dynamic range or add unnessecarily noise. Good enough for real world use. Or should I spend much time worrying about plus/minus one third stop or less?

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome

them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time.

Click to expand...

Well, more than ten years with using zebra, also for pretty technical stuff, real world experience and results tells that this is a very good tool when you want consistent results and less time consuming post processing.

Member said:

Normally I would now go take some example that demolish the theory of your 109% which by the way you can find out yourself if you look at how a gamma curve works, but as someone recently said I am at a stage in life that if someone wants to believe red is blue that's just great and move on

Click to expand...

There are different tools, and using zebra is great when you want to expose close to burned highlights, or to differ between highlighs and shiny highlights. This works within a 0.3 to 0.5 stop "security range" for the white point of the raw files. I find this excellent when we want to take advantage of the full data range from the sensor. As said earlier, this is about as good as you get it.

That bracketing does the job, doesn't mean that other tools can't be reliable and very helpful when setting the optimal exposure. But you have to know the tools.

Also note that the difference for highlight exposure between Zebra 100 and 109+ is a tad more than 1.5 stop. Just set up the values for your camera and try this for yourself! Better than posting false info.

Click to expand...

Sorry but what you are saying is incorrect and complete non sense

Zebra have been using since forever to expose video (not stills not raws) together with other tools like false colour, histograms, waveforms

Zebra is together with luminance histogram one of the worse tools to judge exposure.

The reason is that luminance taken from an RGB signal (or sensor) is a sum of 3 channels and one of the channels may be clipped while the overall sum is still not clipping. So zebra for photography are not a good idea and on the field for video are only used if you don't have anything else. Normally you do not set zebra to more than 100% because you may clip one of the channels even before.

Luminance histograms have the same issue while RGB histograms are better. This is why tools like UNIWB advocate equalising the white balance so that the luminance histogram which is available when shooting is more in check.

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/uniwb/index_en.htm

If you use UNIWB you can try to have ETTR a bit more say like that.

Now for Zebras those are based on a very simple function

this is rec709 which is what the camera display uses.

If you set L to 1.09 you get a value of 1.043 which is 4.3% or log2(1.043/1)=0.061stops higher

In reality the 109% comes from the original discussion about legal and video IRE level. The legal level limit bit codes to 16-235 instead of using the full range. Whatever the coding precision (and the display is not more than 8 bits anyway on cameras) the delta between full and legal range is around 0.2 Ev (960-64=9.8 Ev vs log2(1024)=10.

This is what the zebra is for and again one of the channels may have clipped so zebra is the poor videographer tool for exposure

I have seen some videos with title Sony Zebra 109+ for raw photographers which make magic statement about 109%

You can also prove that yourself. Take your camera with zebra at 100% and get the clip point. Then switch to 109% and see that clipping occurs at 1/3 more nowhere near 1 or 2 stops when using a standard curve

I am checking out on this as I have already been reprimanded for addressing other similar situations however people need to be careful to say other people post false information when they themselves don't know more

Click to expand...

Exposure is about the amount of light hitting the sensor, and highlight detail is about not expose to white without detail. The sensitivity range of the sensor is what we have to deal with. Then we can apply wathever curve we want afterwards, and tone map whatever suits the results best.

When using zebra 109+ there is not clipping of color, except for some situations with very warm or cold light. As an aware photographer, you will soon learn the exceptions to know, so taht you can add some extra headroom for the color data.
The best with this method: It is blistering fast, with reliable results, and you don't waste dynamic range or add unnessecarily noise. Good enough for real world use. Or should I spend much time worrying about plus/minus one third stop or less?

Click to expand...

Even 100% zebra can clip a channel 109% more

Zebra is not an ettr tool

either use uniwb and try or use a log profile but then you have a problem with iso

As the problem has no solution exposure brack ting will work

for non critical situations you expose on what matters as you like and if required do noise reduction in post you push the exposure and clip no tools can recover

i guess we have how cleared that 109% is less than 0.3 ev and you are not doing ettr anyway

--
instagram http://instagram.com/interceptor121
My flickr sets http://www.flickr.com/photos/interceptor121/
Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/interceptor121
Underwater Photo and Video Blog http://interceptor121.com
Deer Photography workshops https://interceptor121.com/2021/09/26/2021-22-deer-photography-workshops-in-woburn/
If you want to get in touch don't send me a PM rather contact me directly at my website/social media

Interceptor121 said:

i guess we have how cleared that 109% is less than 0.3 ev and you are not doing ettr anyway

Click to expand...

So when you add 1.5 stop exposure (light to the sensor), compared to what is judged as "normal exposure", then you don't expose "to the right"?

The point with ETTR is to move the exposure for highlight closer to pure white, and still keep highlight detail. Right? Or is blown highlight what you define as ETTR?

Looks like you have not compared the 109+ setting to the 100 setting and judged the raw file data.

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

i guess we have how cleared that 109% is less than 0.3 ev and you are not doing ettr anyway

Click to expand...

So when you add 1.5 stop exposure (light to the sensor), compared to what is judged as "normal exposure", then you don't expose "to the right"?

The point with ETTR is to move the exposure for highlight closer to pure white, and still keep highlight detail. Right? Or is blown highlight what you define as ETTR?

Looks like you have not compared the 109+ setting to the 100 setting and judged the raw file data.

Click to expand...

nope exposure of the camera works on middle grey and whatever the metering logic is. If you expose a grey card +2 it still doesn’t clip

109 is 0.2 ev more and an image can still clip if middle grey is set correctly

in fact many high dynamic range scenes clip full stop and expose to the right is minus from middle grey

looks like there is also confusion on how the camera meter works?

an image in auto exposure at zero can clip

the camera exposure system is not designed not to clip is only designed to put middle grey at set ire

The 109 therefore can be even lower than the camera set at zero. Shoot backlit and you will see it yourself

liopleurodon said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time. Besides I never suggested auto exposure is a tool either.

Click to expand...

While you don't have a raw histogram, Sony bodies with an HLG picture profile and 100+ zebras will show you raw highlight clipping.

Click to expand...

Yup.

liopleurodon said:

Its been pretty reliable for me.

Click to expand...

Excactly. There are more stategies to ensure the best exposure.

Here is the difference between 100+ and 109+ exposure when using zebra for white clouds in a sunlit landscape - two exposures taken with the same light, manual shutter speed, aperture and ISO, guided by Zebra settings for the brightest part of the clouds, with about 30 seconds difference:


Files imported to Photoshop with Adobe standard profile, shown as the Levels histogram. Left zebra 100+, right zebra 109+. No editing at all. Guess which exposure is ETTR. ;-)

Magnar W said:

liopleurodon said:

Interceptor121 said:

Bracketing is for people that understand tools have limits and want to overcome them. ETTR is based on unreliable tools and therefore does not produce the expected results because you do not have a raw histogram so it is a waste of time. Besides I never suggested auto exposure is a tool either.

Click to expand...

While you don't have a raw histogram, Sony bodies with an HLG picture profile and 100+ zebras will show you raw highlight clipping.

Click to expand...

Yup.

Member said:

Its been pretty reliable for me.

Click to expand...

Excactly. There are more stategies to ensure the best exposure.

Here is the difference between 100+ and 109+ exposure when using zebra for white clouds in a sunlit landscape - two exposures taken with the same light, manual shutter speed, aperture and ISO, guided by Zebra settings for the brightest part of the clouds, with about 30 seconds difference:


Files imported to Photoshop with Adobe standard profile, shown as the Levels histogram. Left zebra 100+, right zebra 109+. No editing at all. Guess which exposure is ETTR. ;-)

Click to expand...

The histogram doesn’t show anything in terms of stops and hlg is logarithmic it doesn’t even get to 109+
lol more confusion it seems

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Interceptor121 said:

Magnar W said:

Interceptor121 said:

i guess we have how cleared that 109% is less than 0.3 ev and you are not doing ettr anyway

Click to expand...

So when you add 1.5 stop exposure (light to the sensor), compared to what is judged as "normal exposure", then you don't expose "to the right"?

The point with ETTR is to move the exposure for highlight closer to pure white, and still keep highlight detail. Right? Or is blown highlight what you define as ETTR?

Looks like you have not compared the 109+ setting to the 100 setting and judged the raw file data.

Click to expand...

nope exposure of the camera works on middle grey and whatever the metering logic is. If you expose a grey card +2 it still doesn’t clip

Click to expand...

Well, here we talk about exposing for the highlights ...

Interceptor121 said:

109 is 0.2 ev more and an image can still clip if middle grey is set correctly

Click to expand...

How do you explain that the zebra settings directs + 1.5 stop MORE exposure at 109+ than zebra 100 before the zebra pattern/highlight warning appears in the viewfinder/on the camera screen?

Interceptor121 said:

The 109 therefore can be even lower than the camera set at zero. Shoot backlit and you will see it yourself

Click to expand...

Any photographer with some training will be able to learn the raw files and clipping point for highlights to know, and also to adjust for warm/cold light if/when needed.

The 109+ advice stays as a good alternative - actually very good for photographers who work with a variery of subjects.