Zoom lens vs cropping

When you crop from 20 mm to 30 mm equivalent field of view, you throw away 25 of 45 Mp.

I don't think the IQ is that much better with a prime.

And what about the gap from 30 to 40?

Good luck and good light.
Well, I just did some calculations. If shooting with a 61mp camera, you can crop 2x and be left with 16mp, or 2.5x and still have 10mp. For me, 16mp is great and 10mp is decent enough for most of my needs (small or medium sized prints, or cover a full 27 inch 4k monitor).
I think you are forgetting some things.

The sharpness of an even doesn't depend just upon the njuber of pixels on the sensor. It also depends on the lens resolution.

I don't doubt you'd be happy with 16MP if the lens was OK. But when you crop to 16MP from 61 (actually to 15.25MP) you are also thowing away lens resolution.
Sure, but when reading tests on lenstip, lensrentals etc it seems that many modern lenses can resolve much more than 60mp. So when they test a lens with a 30mp sensor and then a 60mp one, the lw/ph number will be significantly (2x?) higher on the latter.
No, it will be less than 1.4x as high. How much less depends on how sharp the lens is. An infinitely sharp lens would produce images 1.4 times as sharp from a 60MP sensor compared to a 30MP sensor. A not particularly sharp lens might not see very much improvement at all.
If resolution would stay the same no matter how many pixels your sensor had, then there would be no reason to have more megapixels.

But I get your point. I wonder how much lens resolution you lose though (if you use very high quality glass). Surely it cannot be 75%.
Image resolution is measured linearly, in lp/ph. It is the result of digitising the analog image cast by the lens. Lens resolution is often measured in lp/mm.

When you crop from 61MP to 15.25MP you are cutting out 1/2 the horizontal and 1/2 the vertical dimension of the image. So the number of line pairs cast by the lens on the retained part of the image is cut in half. It is digitized at the same rate (the pixel pitch didn't change) so you should expect to have 1/2 the lp/ph in the cropped image compared to what you had in the uncropped image.

However, if you kept a centre crop, and the lens is sharper in the centre than at the edges, you'd retain a bit more than half the resolution. Perhaps 55%. In contrast, using a zoom and not cropping probably yields something closer to 80-90%. Your suggested approach therefore loses 2.5-4.5 times as much resolution
Theoretically, it should be the same as using a 2x teleconverter.
Why? A 2x teleconverter gets half the lens resolution cast on the sensor, but doesn't halve the pixel rows as well.
A smaller area of the glass has to supply a larger amount of pixels with information.
In one case the information per pixel changed, in the other case it didn't.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As above.
So cropping to 15MP doesn't give you as sharp an image as a photo on a 15MP camera with a good lens. Instead it's like taking a 15MP Photo with a really bad lens - much owrse thtn your zoom would have been.

The noisiness of an image depends on how much light is captured in it. If you crop your 61MP image tp 15MP, you will have thrown away 3/4 of the captured light. Your cropped image would be as noisy as a 61MP image taken with two stop less exposure.
This makes sense on one level. But wouldn't this only be true if you downsized the original (non-cropped) version to the same size as the crop? Let's say the original image is 10k x 6.1k pixels, and you print it at full size. Then you take a pair of scissors and cut away 3/4ths of the picture, leaving only 10k x 1.6k intact. Where is the additional noise coming from?
Why would you assume there is additional noise? An image doesn't look noisier because it has more noise. It looks noisier because it has a lower Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR). An image with a lower SNR almost always has less noise than an image with a higher SNR but it also has an even smaller signal than the image with the higher SNR. If image A has half the SNR of image B, then image A will look noisier than image B. Image A will probably have about half the noise of image B and about 1/4 the signal of Image B. That's what you get when you crop to 1/4 of a 61MP image.

Or to put it another way, noise isn't something separate that exists alongside of pixel values. instead it is a relationship between pixel values. For any given pixel it is a relationship with all the other pixels in what you are looking at. If you change the number of pixels looked at, you change the set of relationships a pixel has even though you don't change the value of the pixel itself.

As you increase the number of pixels included in an image the effect of the noise of any one pixel (or of any specific set of pixels) on the noisiness of a whole image is reduced. The effect of the noisiness of a small set is drowned our by the greater signal and total noise of the larger set.
The part you leave hanging is still untouched.
The noisiness of any sub-part of an image is always greater than the noisiness of the whole image. even though the pixels in the sub-part do not change,. How noisy a viewed image looks depends on the SNR of what you are looking at, which depends primarily on how much light was captured in what you are looking at.

A sub-part of an image has less light captured in it than was captured in the whole image, so the sub-part has a lower SNR, so the sub-part looks noisier than the whole image.
 
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Just to start out, I'm almost entirely a zoom user, so for me, the answer is zooms for the most part.
I don't think you need to overthink this. Ultimately for the purpose of reducing "noise" or capturing detail, you want to get as much of the final image on as large a part of the sensor as you can to start with. Although, one might want to leave room to consider different image aspect ratios, too. So, the more primes one has, the easier it is to accomplish that. This works for any sensor size or resolution. It's a basic zoom versus prime choice.

Other considerations? Although you are wanting to start from the highest resolution bodies, if you intend to limit this to on-screen viewing or fairly small prints, it works from lower resolution bodies, too. Some folks find a 24 or 33 mp body works fine for them, reduces file size handling, storage and processing overhead. Those bodies can be less expensive.

I hesitate to point out at the risk of side discussions, that some suggest higher resolution bodies are noisier than lower. (I have an A7Riv, there are many who have commented that they want their A7Riii because it's not as noisy. I don't think we need the resolution within a sensor size here, just noting that it's something that might come up as you investigate things.)

There's the risk that at some point one might want a big print and I'm not sure just how well the resolution enhancing processes do or what limits might be.

Generally, it is possible to select wider aperture primes compared to zooms. May have some size and price impacts. some shallower depth of field possible (again, not sure what recent software does for that in post). Legend has it, primes are better than zooms. May be the case. It may depend on which lenses are selected and the photographers' skills and editing prowess. One might spend more buying good primes than a zoom.
 
SO much restriction vs zooms and the image quality is negligible if the zoom is of high quality glass. Why restrict yourself and carry many lenses.
...............................

"Why restrict yourself and carry many lenses"

I 100% agree with this statement. But each of

us has there own agenda. I'm a jungle journalist.

Which means my subjects are moving all the time.

I've tried primes in the past but overall many of the

shots were missed due to distance from the subjects.

.

Good luck with your decision ;-)

.
 
For sure everyone's allowed their down preferences, its just they are wrong lol, hides...

I remember back in early 2000's reading books and websites and listening to people telling me to start off with a 50mm and zoom with my feet. F did that waste my time for 6 months untill I got a 24mm Kiron lens and then a standard 28mm+ zoom. A whole new world of FOV possibilities opened up for me and never look back. Zooms all the way.
 
What are your thoughts on replacing a standard zoom with 2-3 primes and then cropping in post (on a high/45mp+ camera)? Pros/cons?

For example, switching out a 24-105mm f4 for a 20mm (crop from 21-30), 40mm (crop from 41-60) and 85mm (crop from 86-135). Is the "prime look" still there after cropping? Is it worth the hassle?

Potential benefits I see are ability to use faster apertures at certain intervals and better image quality overall (although not sure if its still there after cropping). Negatives would be needing to switch lenses, (potentially) harder to compose (as you need to remember how you're going to crop the picture later when viewing it on your computer), and loss of pixels/resolution.
It's situation dependent, but remember your Mp decreases with the square of the size factor. A 3X crop reduces your pixel resolution by 88% and brings zero new detail into the shot.

True, primes are often faster and possibly sharper, but I can't see justification for anything other than a small magnification.
 
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IMO, you do not have enough MPs for cropping to implement this plan. However, I think the plan is a good one for the speed. How fast are the apertures you are considering? You should try to acquire the primes and keep the zoom if you can.
What are your thoughts on replacing a standard zoom with 2-3 primes and then cropping in post (on a high/45mp+ camera)? Pros/cons?

For example, switching out a 24-105mm f4 for a 20mm (crop from 21-30), 40mm (crop from 41-60) and 85mm (crop from 86-135). Is the "prime look" still there after cropping? Is it worth the hassle?

Potential benefits I see are ability to use faster apertures at certain intervals and better image quality overall (although not sure if its still there after cropping). Negatives would be needing to switch lenses, (potentially) harder to compose (as you need to remember how you're going to crop the picture later when viewing it on your computer), and loss of pixels/resolution.
 
What are your thoughts on replacing a standard zoom with 2-3 primes and then cropping in post (on a high/45mp+ camera)? Pros/cons?

For example, switching out a 24-105mm f4 for a 20mm (crop from 21-30), 40mm (crop from 41-60) and 85mm (crop from 86-135). Is the "prime look" still there after cropping? Is it worth the hassle?

Potential benefits I see are ability to use faster apertures at certain intervals and better image quality overall (although not sure if its still there after cropping). Negatives would be needing to switch lenses, (potentially) harder to compose (as you need to remember how you're going to crop the picture later when viewing it on your computer), and loss of pixels/resolution.
If you want natural (non-aliased, non-pixelated) subject detail, cropping hard from a fast, short lens that is sharp wide open is not the best way to go.

You must also remember that all diffraction that you may associate with f-numbers changes when you crop, as it gets larger, relative to subject size or kept sensor area, and lens aberrations do, too. A hard crop from a "better" shorter lens can actually give a worse capture than using the whole frame with a slower-, softer lens.
 
Is it worth the hassle?
Not for me - I'd rather have a 2nd camera/lens than carry a bunch of lenses. That said, as you realize: if you need f/1.8 you aren't going to get it from a zoom that only opens to f/4.
That is a meaningful comparison of two lenses of the same (or similar) focal length. If you crop enough, though, everything you value in a faster lens may disappear. Say it was 50/1.8 vs 200/4 (long end of a 70-200/4). If you were photographing a painting, and stepped back 4x as far with it at 200mm, then that 1.8 would definitely mean 1/4 the ISO or 4x the shutter speed, and if aberration was low enough to reveal it, 0.4x as much diffraction.

If you shot both at the same distance as you would need to with 200mm, to get the entire painting in the frame, now at 50mm you're cropping only 1/16 the area, or 1/4 the width and height of the sensor, with 1/16th of its pixel count, say 1.5MP from a 24MP sensor. Your FF-equivalent f-number is now f/1.8 x 4 = f/7.2, and your aberrations, which most f/1.8 lenses designed for larger sensors have in spades, wide open, are 4x as wide and high at the image level, from the 4x cropping.
 
What are your thoughts on replacing a standard zoom with 2-3 primes and then cropping in post (on a high/45mp+ camera)? Pros/cons?

For example, switching out a 24-105mm f4 for a 20mm (crop from 21-30), 40mm (crop from 41-60) and 85mm (crop from 86-135). Is the "prime look" still there after cropping? Is it worth the hassle?

Potential benefits I see are ability to use faster apertures at certain intervals and better image quality overall (although not sure if its still there after cropping). Negatives would be needing to switch lenses, (potentially) harder to compose (as you need to remember how you're going to crop the picture later when viewing it on your computer), and loss of pixels/resolution.
Cropping throws away much of the resolution and results in a large sensor having the performance of a smaller one. As such I think using optical zoom is a better idea.
 
Maybe I am off topic........

I quickly learned that my 4 mp Nikon or 8 MP Canon had no problems making high ISO low light 2 m sized images of dance and sports with primes or zooms. It all depends upon the needs of the customer. I have made hundreds of 16x20 mounted prints on various sensors (3 mp to 24 mp). Admittedly, I have to be careful shooting and printing.
 
I have now done some testing on this. I used my 20mp Canon R6 and the RF 24-105mm f4L as well as the Sigma 40mm f1.4 Art.

I shot RAW and imported into DXO Photolab 6. I let the software apply the basic stuff like distortion and vignette control. Sharpening is applied on the 60mm and 80mm pictures but not at the 105mm picture (I forgot to turn them off at the 60/80 crops and didn't want to re-do the crops). All used the same settings (100 ISO, 1/1000, f4).

First, here is the Sigma Art shot at 40mm (resized to 3470x2313 to match the later 60mm crop). I noticed that this lens is slightly wider than 40mm (somewhere like 37-38mm). But nonetheless:

Sigma Art 40mm f1.4 EF @ 40mm
Sigma Art 40mm f1.4 EF @ 40mm

Next is the RF 24-105mm f4L, shot at 60mm (resized to 3470x2313):

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 60mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 60mm

And here is the crop of the Sigma picture at 60mm (more or less):

Sigma Art 40mm f1.4 EF @ 40mm - Cropped to 60mm FOV
Sigma Art 40mm f1.4 EF @ 40mm - Cropped to 60mm FOV
 
Continuing on...

Here is the zoom lens at ∼80mm (really 77mm):

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm

And here is the prime after a 2x crop:

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm

And lastly, I went all the way in to 105mm on the zoom:

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm

And here is the prime lens crop to the same 105mm fov (about nearly 3x crop from the original):

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm

What are your thoughts? I cannot see any deterioration in quality at a 2x crop (I still find the Sigma prime slightly better than the Canon zoom here), but a slight deterioration at 3x where the zoom finally wins. If you don't zoom in on that 3x crop however, there really isn't much if any perceivable difference.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to test this out. That is really the only way to find out what matters.

If you can't see the difference and can afford the change in gear, the choice is easy.

I'm not in doubt, and I can see a difference, but that only goes to show that we have different standards, not that I am right and you are wrong.

Good luck and good light.
 
The brickwork at the left side of the photo shows the Sigma is sharper at the edges.
 
Continuing on...

Here is the zoom lens at ∼80mm (really 77mm):

And here is the prime after a 2x crop:

And lastly, I went all the way in to 105mm on the zoom:

And here is the prime lens crop to the same 105mm fov (about nearly 3x crop from the original):

What are your thoughts? I cannot see any deterioration in quality at a 2x crop (I still find the Sigma prime slightly better than the Canon zoom here), but a slight deterioration at 3x where the zoom finally wins. If you don't zoom in on that 3x crop however, there really isn't much if any perceivable difference.

You are reducing your pixel count by a factor of 9. As long as the picture is displayed small, you won't see much, and a lot of display/printing software will try to smooth out any 'blockiness'.

However the optical zoom actually adds detail that simply does not exist in the cropped image. For true comparison, view the optical enlargement at full pixel resolution, and then enlarge the cropped image to the same size. The two will be different.
 
Continuing on...

Here is the zoom lens at ∼80mm (really 77mm):

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm

And here is the prime after a 2x crop:

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm

And lastly, I went all the way in to 105mm on the zoom:

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm

And here is the prime lens crop to the same 105mm fov (about nearly 3x crop from the original):

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm

What are your thoughts? I cannot see any deterioration in quality at a 2x crop (I still find the Sigma prime slightly better than the Canon zoom here), but a slight deterioration at 3x where the zoom finally wins. If you don't zoom in on that 3x crop however, there really isn't much if any perceivable difference.
Something does not make sense. Those last two images, for example are different resolutions. but not 3x cropping. The 40mm has about 4.8 M pixels while the 'full zoom' is only about 2.8M. As a comparison test, the full zoom should be the full resolution of your sensor, and the prime version should be about 1/3 of both height and width (about 1/9 of full resolution.
 
Is it worth the hassle?
Not for me - I'd rather have a 2nd camera/lens than carry a bunch of lenses. That said, as you realize: if you need f/1.8 you aren't going to get it from a zoom that only opens to f/4.
That is a meaningful comparison of two lenses of the same (or similar) focal length. If you crop enough, though, everything you value in a faster lens may disappear.
Your signature tag line seems to apply here John.

My reply offered an example of a severe crop on a 42MP image.

I then expressed my preference for not carrying a bunch of primes. My crop was from a "slow" zoom. In no case was I advocating severe cropping of a fast zoom my comment emphasized the OP's understanding that he would need faster lenses for certain images.

So, beware of correct replies that really have nothing to do with the message being replied to.
 
Is it worth the hassle?
Not for me - I'd rather have a 2nd camera/lens than carry a bunch of lenses. That said, as you realize: if you need f/1.8 you aren't going to get it from a zoom that only opens to f/4.
That is a meaningful comparison of two lenses of the same (or similar) focal length. If you crop enough, though, everything you value in a faster lens may disappear.
Your signature tag line seems to apply here John.

My reply offered an example of a severe crop on a 42MP image.

I then expressed my preference for not carrying a bunch of primes. My crop was from a "slow" zoom. In no case was I advocating severe cropping of a fast zoom my comment emphasized the OP's understanding that he would need faster lenses for certain images.

So, beware of correct replies that really have nothing to do with the message being replied to.
I have to go by what you wrote; not what you thought. What you wrote suggested that f/1.8 is superior to f/4, with no mention of focal lengths. If you meant f/1.8 and f/4 at the same focal length, you did not say so, and the background context here was, in fact, cropping from a shorter prime vs a longer zoom.
 
Is it worth the hassle?
Not for me - I'd rather have a 2nd camera/lens than carry a bunch of lenses. That said, as you realize: if you need f/1.8 you aren't going to get it from a zoom that only opens to f/4.
That is a meaningful comparison of two lenses of the same (or similar) focal length. If you crop enough, though, everything you value in a faster lens may disappear.
Your signature tag line seems to apply here John.

My reply offered an example of a severe crop on a 42MP image.

I then expressed my preference for not carrying a bunch of primes. My crop was from a "slow" zoom. In no case was I advocating severe cropping of a fast zoom my comment emphasized the OP's understanding that he would need faster lenses for certain images.

So, beware of correct replies that really have nothing to do with the message being replied to.
I have to go by what you wrote; not what you thought. What you wrote suggested that f/1.8 is superior to f/4, with no mention of focal lengths. If you meant f/1.8 and f/4 at the same focal length, you did not say so, and the background context here was, in fact, cropping from a shorter prime vs a longer zoom.
OK, that's fair.

Although I think what I said was if you need f/1.8 you aren't going to get it from a zoom that only opens to f/4.0. What I was thinking was that the shot needed a faster lens nothing about zoom or prime or cropping was implied.
 
Continuing on...

Here is the zoom lens at ∼80mm (really 77mm):

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 77mm

And here is the prime after a 2x crop:

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 77mm

And lastly, I went all the way in to 105mm on the zoom:

Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm
Canon RF 24-105mm f4L @ 105mm

And here is the prime lens crop to the same 105mm fov (about nearly 3x crop from the original):

Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm
Sigma EF 40mm f1.4 Art @ 40mm - Cropped to 105mm

What are your thoughts? I cannot see any deterioration in quality at a 2x crop (I still find the Sigma prime slightly better than the Canon zoom here), but a slight deterioration at 3x where the zoom finally wins. If you don't zoom in on that 3x crop however, there really isn't much if any perceivable difference.
To me, the brickwork on the building in the lower left corner is clearly sharper in the downsampled 105mm shot, compared to the cropped 40mm shot, as is to be expected. I don't have to zoom to 100% to see it.
 

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