Never Too Many Thoughts on Nikon DX

ghostfox_1 said:

BackToNature1 said:

Those in photography will always talk about user skill or camera gear. What many don't seem to talk about, location, location, location. A ton on folks will ensure a potentially higher success rates, simply by the location alone.

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Well, yes, but you can get good shots in a lot of places, and still get a ton of bad shots because someone isn't used to birds at all.

We also can't fix where someone is, and saying "well, you should just move" isn't helpful. I thought it was obvious you'd need to have birds to shoot to get practice, and finding good spots is often part of the learning experience, or it was for me.

ghostfox_1 said:

Then there is the issue of shooting in the right Light for the type of subjects one is shooting and the desired effect. There can be a boat load of Swallows just sitting there waiting to be shot, but if one has only 300mm when the Min needed is 600mm, user skill really won't matter much.

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He's getting a 180-600, he'll be fine on reach.

ghostfox_1 said:

Gordan Lang stated it best, sure, it's good to have all these different AF modes, but having at least 1 mode that basically can ascertain, most subjects, makes one's life, a whole lot easier. Which is a big selling point, for certain brands.

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Wide small works pretty well provided you can track a bird well. Wide large if you can't.

I found them to be good enough on my z7.

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Other Photographers see wildlife images, especially birding, then sometimes wonder why they aren't getting the same results. Well the fact of the matter is this, not everyone is shooting under the same premium type conditions.

There are those they have ideal spots/locations along with decent enough gear, to get the job done. So no, it's not just about what setting you are using. Some have special apps to let them know ideal spots are even friends that do literally the same.

Some Bait, use Blinds, and any number of other methods to ensure better opportunities. So again, it's hardly just about what settings, somebody else is using. It is however when comparing images, were they shot under similar conditions. Otherwise, the comparisons really don't matter.

And no , I don't believe this is well understood.

I am done with Nikon now for Cropped DX not waiting anymore.

I have many thoughts on Nikon DX.

I pilled the trigger and did the pre order on the Sony new A6700 and a set of lens.

I just can not see Nikon coming even close to this any Time soon.

And the lens I ordered Nikon has nothing that comes close to them for DX.

Now what's next for FF - Will we see a Nikon Z6III or will we see the next Sony FF that is expected soon to be in a small body with all the features of the Nikon Z8 and 9 plus a lot more to move to next.

Will I stay or will I go - Its up to Nikon.

I got into the Z system for the advertised smaller size and smaller lens but now we get larger and larger everything and smaller lens ranges of more of the z lens VS the F mount versions.

Seems like they could have just come out with a new lens line for the F mount and it would have been the same.

Did we see any advantage to the Z mount over the F mount system ?. Except for making us louse a lot of money making the move to the Z system.

I will stay a little and keep my Z6s and move them to web and video cams as the used resale price is so low on them its not worth selling them.

Leonard Shepherd said:

I used DX alongside FX extensively when the D810 was 30 megapixel and the D500 was 24 megapixels.

When I did not have a longer focal length lens (mainly a money issue), DX put usefully more Pixels on the subject with only a minor few trade-offs at low ISOs. In addition AF point coverage of the DX screen was 50% greater than on the D810.

To usefully better Z7/8/9 MP on the subject otherwise benefiting from cropping, DX ideally needs at least 40 MP.

Although 40 MP exists for Fuji DX, it is not a BSI sensor to help get fast processing at Z8/9 levels.

When a 40 MP BSI sensor becomes available a high performing Nikon DX body at perhaps £3000 would interest many wildlife photographers.

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I agree although anything over around 30mp would be OK for me. It needs to be a stacked sensor to eliminate viewfinder blackout.

MotoDave said:

So after reading two threads on DX thoughts with lots of talk of the new A6700, is there a general consensus that the 6700 is the level of performance similar to a D500? I'm talking roughly, but is that what we are hoping for in a Z70 high end type crop? Or something more?
I've never used a D500. I do currently shoot a D7200 and have owned (briefly) the Z50 and A6600. I'm one of those guys that don't see FF as a huge improvement for what I do most of the time. I'd like to get into the mirrorless world, but am waiting right now.

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The electronics may be good on the Sony, but the body is a Dogs Dinner.

MotoDave said:

So after reading two threads on DX thoughts with lots of talk of the new A6700, is there a general consensus that the 6700 is the level of performance similar to a D500? I'm talking roughly, but is that what we are hoping for in a Z70 high end type crop? Or something more?
I've never used a D500. I do currently shoot a D7200 and have owned (briefly) the Z50 and A6600. I'm one of those guys that don't see FF as a huge improvement for what I do most of the time. I'd like to get into the mirrorless world, but am waiting right now.

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I used the D500 for many years before moving to the Z6. I also had the D7200 and D7500 and D750, D700 and more

I just pre ordered the a6700.

The A6700 lacks a few things the D500 has like 8000 shutter speed and the flash sync is only 160.

Other then that the A6700 should be much better the the D500. Even back when I had the D500 I also had the a6000 and a6300,

Any time I shot video the Sonys did 100% better job then the D500 by far.

Now to the a6700. It has the newer 26mp chip we most likely will see in a new Nikon at some point but you can get it now well next month when they start shipping.

The focus system is much better than the D500 or many other cameras out, It now includes the AI Sony focus system like for birds and animals and more.

For video it has the new flowing box of 4k in a 6k box for self shooting so it looks like the camera is moving to follow you as you move around in front of the camera Nikon not just focus tracking.

It has 4k 60 video and 4k 120 video and in 10 bit. Will we ever see that in a Nikon DX camera any time soon ?. and at this price point.

Then all the advanced video features no Nikon DX camera has.

Also the larger battery. And the top hot mounting system and the new mikes the have for it.

Then for photos the focus system is so advanced vs anything in any Nikon DX camera its more like what you see in the high end Nikon FF cameras out now but with some extra features for different subjects.

I do wish it was a little better with the faster shutter speed but it dose have a elc shutter that can shoot fast past 4000 for portraits and non fast moving things.

Nikon has nothing like this and may never.

Then look at the lens available from Sony, Sigma and Tamron and others you can get that you can not get for Nikon. So you lens cost can be much lower not needing to use FF lens on the DX camera that are larger and cost more.

As for FF VS cropped with the right lens the difference is a non issue Till you get into much darker areas and higher ISOs. For me I almost never shoot over around iso 1600 for anything on any job we ever shoot.

I did order the Sigma 56mm 1.4 lens for the a6700 lens so this will give me the same look as my FF camera using my Nikon z 85mm 1.8 at f2 in a smaller light and much lower cost setup. I also ordered the Sigma 18-50 2.8 lens this gives me a 27-75 2.8 FF= its so small and lite. I still have the old F mount Nikon 17-55 2.8 it so big and heavy in comparison.

Then I ordered the Sony 11mm 1.8 lens to give around a 16mm FF = 1.8 lens.

Also looking at the Sony very lite 70-350 this will give a 525mm on the zoom end on the a6700 for under $1000 that is very sharp. Compare it to a FF 600mm zoom lens for price, size and weight.

So for the camera and three great lens I am in at under $3k including the taxes. With 1.4, 1.8 and 2.8 Lens.

ghostfox_1 said:

finding good spots is often part of the learning experience, or it was for me.

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This is probably the number one requirement for landscape as well as wildlife.

I am sorry of i wasn't clear. I have not shot BIF with Z. I am saying that if someone as respected as Thom says he finds the Z50 wanting for BIF focus ability, then I am not willing to move to Z DX and away from my D7500. He has also indicated that the Z focus modules, while good, require a steep learning curve.

Your pictures and experience indicate you find the Z50 superior to the D7500. I bow to your considerable expertise, but I hope you will understand my reluctance to move from a proven quantity, to one that at the least will require a long apprenticeship.

jgreg said:

Thom was an early proponent of the Z6/7 focus as being good. If he now finds the DX Z as being wanting for it's AF-C for BIF, i think that is a problem for Nikon. To be clear, he is very complementary otherwise on the Z50.

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Perhaps some caution is needed.

Thom was no doubt an early proponent because when the Z 6/7 were launched they had good AF relative to the then competition.

As is not uncommon in the nearly 5 years time scale, ML AF performance has improved significantly.

I think what Thom is saying is the Z50 is not up to the best now available in the market (including from Nikon) - usually at a much, much higher price point than the Z50 - though Z50 AF seems as good as the now aging Z6/7.

Leonard Shepherd said:

jgreg said:

Thom was an early proponent of the Z6/7 focus as being good. If he now finds the DX Z as being wanting for it's AF-C for BIF, i think that is a problem for Nikon. To be clear, he is very complementary otherwise on the Z50.

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Perhaps some caution is needed.

Thom was no doubt an early proponent because when the Z 6/7 were launched they had good AF relative to the then competition.

As is not uncommon in the nearly 5 years time scale, ML AF performance has improved significantly.

I think what Thom is saying is the Z50 is not up to the best now available in the market (including from Nikon) - usually at a much, much higher price point than the Z50 - though Z50 AF seems as good as the now aging Z6/7.

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One can now get the Sony a6600 with IBIS, great battery life, and decent AF for under a Grand. Plus they also reduced the price of the a6400.

Enter Canon with their latest mirrorless cropped cameras with their AF performance. So clearly not at much, much higher price points than the Z50. So yes, Nikon has to address this.

On the Z6/Z7 front, i have seen numerous threads saying that for birds in flight, users might be better off staying with their nikon Fx/Dx kits, but for AF-S, the Z6/Z7 is as good, and often better. I am unclear if the focus ability of the Z50 is more advanced than the Z6/Z7 or the ii's. This leads me to be extremely hesitant to make the switch.

Still, i have seen some quite remarkable shots with the Z50 here, and i am not calling it a bad camera at all. Just not a body compelling enough to cause me to switch. Now the z lenses are clearly better their Fx equivalents, and i suspect the same applies to the FX/Z Dx lenses. Primes

BackToNature1 said:

One can now get the Sony a6600 with IBIS, great battery life, and decent AF for under a Grand. Plus they also reduced the price of the a6400.

Enter Canon with their latest mirrorless cropped cameras with their AF performance. So clearly not at much, much higher price points than the Z50. So yes, Nikon has to address this.

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I agree - the issue seems to be Nikon being slow getting products to market.

There seems no doubt some defected to a Sony or Canon before the Z9 became available.

Similarly many bought a Sony 200-600 during the long delay by Nikon getting the Nikon 180-600 to market.

While CIPA figures suggest overall DX market is declining fairly rapidly, there will always be some Nikon DX photographers not prepared to wait for Nikon to get a high performance DX body to market.

Vandyu said:

ANAYV said:

Vandyu said:

You are doing very nicely with the Z50. Your work shows your ongoing mastery of this camera.

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Thanks Vandyu!

Still learning.

I do hope in the future a higher end Z DX camera comes out.

I would love faster AF...a bit more resolution than 20 MP...more custom function buttons, and more things to assign them to. Maybe higher resolution EVF..and maybe IBIS.

I have 2 cheap small sensor cameras that are faster to change EV and ISO...makes the Nikon cameras seem slower (why?).

They also have more assignable function buttons...and they are electronic companies, not camera companies, like Nikon.

Press a button and I've changed EV...turn a dial and ISO has changed already..come on Nikon..you can also do it.

Also have a Ricoh GXR that also can change things as soon as you press or move a lever....very intuitive.

Anyway..we can hope for a better than Z50/fc/30 DX model to do what the D500 can do, but a bit better.

time will tell

ANAYV

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Are you referring, by any chance to Panasonic?

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Yes!

Even Casio makes quick adjustments easier than Nikon..( EV and ISO) ....go figure

Vandyu said:

I spent some time with the FZ20, FZ150 and FZ200 before going back to Nikon.

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I owned and used all those...plus 10 other FZ's and ZS/TZ's

Vandyu said:

There were some things I liked about those small cameras, but not the EVF.

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My first superzoom was the. FZ10...back in 2004.

Terrible EVF.

We've come a long way since then.

Vandyu said:

I missed the optical VF, but now, guess I will get used to not having one when I finally move to mirrorless. The EVF on the Nikons, I believe, are larger and have more resolution, but still are not the same as seeing what the camera sees, not what the camera interprets. Maybe I'm wrong here. Others will illuminate me! ;-)

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Z9/8 will be closest thing to OVF..since they have separate feed just for the EVF...

ANAYV

Vandyu said:

Here's a chart with the EVF information listed on most recent models:

https://www.neocamera.com/article/evf_sizes

--
If someone is important to you, let them know every day. Life is never fair, it seems, and time is always too short. Every day give the world your very best.

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benelkind said:

These are incredible.

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Thanks!

benelkind said:

Can you share your autofocus settings?

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Sure....bSure....but add some patience when sooting fast BIF.

Most times I use Auto Area Wide Small.

Sometimes I will switch to dynamic AF.

Idont use subject tracking on my Z 50

benelkind said:

I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!

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Should be a good combo.

Seems a good lens at a good price.

Might be too big/ heavy for me

ANAYV

jgreg said:

I am sorry of i wasn't clear. I have not shot BIF with Z. I am saying that if someone as respected as Thom says he finds the Z50 wanting for BIF focus ability,

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I don't believe I've written that. I have two basic complaints about Z50 focus: lack of control, plus it has a strong tendency to try to refocus when it shouldn't. I've had a pending article about the latter that requires me to hook up some video to it that I haven't gotten around to. The former has to do with the limited AF-area mode choices and limits in moving between them. The Z30 and Zfc gave us more choices, but still changing between choices is a pain.

jgreg said:

He has also indicated that the Z focus modules, while good, require a steep learning curve.

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Any change to a new focus system, whether it be DSLR-to-mirrorless in the case of a Nikon user, or move to another mount, as in the case of samplers/leakers/switchers, requires that you spend time learning how it works if you want the best result.

ANAYV said:

ANAYV said:

Are you referring, by any chance to Panasonic?

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Yes!

Even Casio makes quick adjustments easier than Nikon..( EV and ISO) ....go figure

ANAYV said:

I spent some time with the FZ20, FZ150 and FZ200 before going back to Nikon.

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I owned and used all those...plus 10 other FZ's and ZS/TZ's

ANAYV said:

There were some things I liked about those small cameras, but not the EVF.

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My first superzoom was the. FZ10...back in 2004.

Terrible EVF.

We've come a long way since then.

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Truly a missed opportunity by Nikon. I would have bought that over my Pana Fz1000. Then my entire Camera Gear might have been completely different.

ANAYV said:

benelkind said:

These are incredible.

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Thanks!

ANAYV said:

Can you share your autofocus settings?

Click to expand...

Sure....bSure....but add some patience when sooting fast BIF.

Most times I use Auto Area Wide Small.

Sometimes I will switch to dynamic AF.

Idont use subject tracking on my Z 50

ANAYV said:

I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!

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Should be a good combo.

Seems a good lens at a good price.

Might be too big/ heavy for me

ANAYV

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Thanks for the response. Lots to learn and try out.

Thom Hogan said:

Any change to a new focus system, whether it be DSLR-to-mirrorless in the case of a Nikon user, or move to another mount, as in the case of samplers/leakers/switchers, requires that you spend time learning how it works if you want the best result.

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It's supposed to be automatic. Why should anyone have to keep learning new stuff??

CliveTJ said:

Vandyu said:

I just tried to post a response on the quite lengthy thread "Thoughts on Nikon DX" and was turned away due to the thread being closed. But, I wanted to respond to the following comment by sportyaccordy. Hope I'm not violating a rule I'm not aware of. Don't ban me. Just tell me how to do it differently, please.

"If the Z50 is just a slightly smaller Z5, then yes a DX sensor in a Z6 style body would be meaningfully different. More weathersealing, better balance + stronger mount for longer lenses, more heat capacity to cool for video and high FPS stills.

Heck just the fact that Nikon Z is the only system without even some semblence of this kind of camera is enough justification to make it."

I'm not interested in a Z50 size body, but the Z5-6 larger size for better handling.

Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)

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I’m increasingly thinking that the DX USP is that it allows the use of smaller and lighter lenses. Those wanting a D500 replacement might as well get a Z8 and use it in DX if need be.

I find it’s useful to use my Z fc with small lenses and it’s handy that it uses my FX lenses plus it’s the same menu system. For me it’s an adjunct to my Z7ii.

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Smaller size is just 1 USP. Pixel density is another.

Folks who value smaller size can use the smaller bodies. Folks who want pixel density and high performance with telephoto lenses would be better served by something like a Z90 (I agree a Z500 is probably a bridge too far).

Again the biggest indictment of Nikon's omission of a DX body above the Z50 is the fact that literally all their competitors have such a body in one form or another. X-S10, A6700, R7, one of a dozen MFT bodies. These are generally only marginally larger than a Z50 but substantially more versatile and higher performing.

Plus with video being an increasingly important aspect of camera sales it would behoove Nikon to offer something with 21st century video specs at an affordable price, again like literally all of its competitors are doing. Internal 10 bit full width 4K60 is basically the industry standard and barring the Z8/Z9 I don't know if Nikon has anything in its lineup with that capability. That has to change if Nikon wants any hope of retaining market share. They have a big hole right in the heart of the current camera market.

BGD300V1 said:

Thom Hogan said:

Any change to a new focus system, whether it be DSLR-to-mirrorless in the case of a Nikon user, or move to another mount, as in the case of samplers/leakers/switchers, requires that you spend time learning how it works if you want the best result.

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It's supposed to be automatic.

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Says who?

BGD300V1 said:

Why should anyone have to keep learning new stuff??

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Because technology changes lol.

Thom Hogan said:

jgreg said:

I am sorry of i wasn't clear. I have not shot BIF with Z. I am saying that if someone as respected as Thom says he finds the Z50 wanting for BIF focus ability,

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I don't believe I've written that. I have two basic complaints about Z50 focus: lack of control, plus it has a strong tendency to try to refocus when it shouldn't. I've had a pending article about the latter that requires me to hook up some video to it that I haven't gotten around to. The former has to do with the limited AF-area mode choices and limits in moving between them. The Z30 and Zfc gave us more choices, but still changing between choices is a pain.

Thom Hogan said:

He has also indicated that the Z focus modules, while good, require a steep learning curve.

Click to expand...

Any change to a new focus system, whether it be DSLR-to-mirrorless in the case of a Nikon user, or move to another mount, as in the case of samplers/leakers/switchers, requires that you spend time learning how it works if you want the best result.

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I've not used a Z50, but my Z7ii has always been very spotty for BIF and frankly even just stationary subjects, though it hits those more often. That doesn't mean it can't do it at all - it just feels like when I use it especially for BIF it is more of a dice roll than with other cameras I've used (both mirrorless and DSLR).

For instance, a recent one from the Z. Hardly the best BIF photo ever, but hey, it's in focus, which is what we're discussing.



On the other hand, typically what I'll get in a series of 10 shots is maybe one or two of them that are in focus. Judging from what I see in the EVF, what tends to happen is it seeks back and forth a bit until it sort of gets its bearings, but then it will lose it again fairly quickly and have to start over. Often I'll get something like this as the best example in a series, which I have to take to be the AF having trouble keeping up since the shutter speed seems like it ought to be enough not to blame the slight blur on it. (Actually, looking at the photo now that it's uploaded I suppose the shutter is maybe right on the edge here. I said the SS was plenty high because have whole sequences of them doing this where I had upped the speed to 1/4000 or 1/5000 and this was still the best I got),