Never Too Many Thoughts on Nikon DX

Some folks keep saying the Crop Mode is the answer, well it mostly isn't. Maybe for some when the 61MP z8r arrives but certainly not now. But then we are talking maybe around $4000 when most want to pay tops, $2500. Meaning what the z8r would cost. Top performing cropped cameras, far less.

Nikon already has enough decent cropped lens Plus the with the addition of the 180 600mm, just do it already. Sony and Canon are leading in cropped in spite of half baked releases. So if Nikon wants to continue their Rise Back up the charts, then a proper Cropped Sensor camera will be needed.

Plus just because a select few are getting given results with the current cropped lineup, that has very little to do with the Vast Majority of everyone else. Because everyone is different.
 
I think Thom hit the nail on the head. As a D7500/D5600 user, if the AF of the Z50 is not quite up to snuff for wildlife, what is my incentive to move to Zdx?

The number of pixels on the target, and lightweight lens selection in DX all make the D7500/D5500 combo hard to beat. I can hike with D5600 a 10-20, 18-55, 70-300 AF-P lenses all day. I can use the D7500 Sigma 17-50 f2.8 at family gatherings and get wonderful results. Throw in the 85 f1.8, and 35mm F1.8 dx and i can get acceptable portraits. No, it's not professional quality but as I am printing at no more than A10, its quite good enough for me.

I see little in the Z full frame that interests me for wildlife/landscape use at present. Still deciding if the Z system will work for my use cases for gatherings. If Nikon cannot convince an enthusiast like me to move fully to Z, that spells long term trouble.

Still, Nikon is a small company, and historically, they have delivered, albeit slowly at times. I wouldn't count them out. I will hang on to my Nikon digital DX kit, and eagerly await what comes down the pike.
 
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Some folks keep saying the Crop Mode is the answer, well it mostly isn't.
I have to challenge you on that, because in practice I find that it is, both among amateurs and pros. I even know one sports pro exclusively using DX crop, because he doesn't need 45mp and DX crop lets him use smaller, lighter lenses. However, the entry cost to do this is US$4000 (Z8).
Sony and Canon are leading in cropped in spite of half baked releases.
"Leading" in what way? Sales volume? I don't think pure market size is going to motivate Nikon any more. They want to know that there's a unique niche that generates high profit by filling it. I'm arguing that Z70/Z90 is such a niche but is currently being neglected by Nikon. A US$1500 Z70 or even US$2500 Z90 done right would generate both enough sales and a high enough profit for Nikon to pursue in their current management strategy. A Z30 does not fit that strategy. It's some other strategy they haven't defined.
So if Nikon wants to continue their Rise Back up the charts, then a proper Cropped Sensor camera will be needed.
Again, while I'm certain Nikon would welcome more market share, that's not what they're pursuing.
 
I think Thom hit the nail on the head. As a D7500/D5600 user, if the AF of the Z50 is not quite up to snuff for wildlife, what is my incentive to move to Zdx?
Actually, for me, the Z 50 IS up to par with these DX cameras.



I.Q. on Z 50 is ever so slightly better, IMHO, than my D7500.

Could be the Z kit lens helping that. ( Z 50-250mm)

Have the AF-P 70-300 DX VR lens and used it on both cameras.

Also have the AF-P 10-20mm ..had the 18-55mm AF-P



What type of wildlife do you shoot?

For me, BIF and Dragonflies in flight are the hardest.

My D3300/3400 would not fair well with these. My D7500 did better...but it seems my Z 50 is slightly better than my D7500. D7500 had over 200,000 images taken before selling it.

I sold it few months after using my Z 50.

Plus, my Z 50 can AF with a Sigma 100-400mm Plus 1.4x TC.

F/9 is fastest aperture at the telephoto end.

I don't think the D7500 could even AF at All with this lens combo! It needs f/8 or wider, I think.

Few more examples:

I will start with easy subjects in flight..then increase to harder BIF and DIF

495daf5fda484ec9a1615c04f736fd3d.jpg

fe215cb65c2a44bf8e22dba70d88e66f.jpg

627e762c0369473a85ce242fcbd3d0b3.jpg

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Some of there are with the Z 50-250mm lens and others with the Sigma 100-400mm lens

I see no benefit to my D7500, that my Z 50 can't do.

YMMV

ANAYV
 
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Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)
Indeed, the Z5/6/7 size body which could accomodate IBIS and a stacked sensor (ala Fuji) would be a great addition to the line.

Small for the sake of small doesn't impress me or I'd still have a Minox.
 
You are doing very nicely with the Z50. Your work shows your ongoing mastery of this camera.
Thanks Vandyu!

Still learning.

I do hope in the future a higher end Z DX camera comes out.

I would love faster AF...a bit more resolution than 20 MP...more custom function buttons, and more things to assign them to. Maybe higher resolution EVF..and maybe IBIS.

I have 2 cheap small sensor cameras that are faster to change EV and ISO...makes the Nikon cameras seem slower (why?).

They also have more assignable function buttons...and they are electronic companies, not camera companies, like Nikon.

Press a button and I've changed EV...turn a dial and ISO has changed already..come on Nikon..you can also do it.

Also have a Ricoh GXR that also can change things as soon as you press or move a lever....very intuitive.

Anyway..we can hope for a better than Z50/fc/30 DX model to do what the D500 can do, but a bit better.

time will tell

ANAYV
 
I just tried to post a response on the quite lengthy thread "Thoughts on Nikon DX" and was turned away due to the thread being closed. But, I wanted to respond to the following comment by sportyaccordy. Hope I'm not violating a rule I'm not aware of. Don't ban me. Just tell me how to do it differently, please.

"If the Z50 is just a slightly smaller Z5, then yes a DX sensor in a Z6 style body would be meaningfully different. More weathersealing, better balance + stronger mount for longer lenses, more heat capacity to cool for video and high FPS stills.

Heck just the fact that Nikon Z is the only system without even some semblence of this kind of camera is enough justification to make it."


I'm not interested in a Z50 size body, but the Z5-6 larger size for better handling.

Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)
I think we'll see that or maybe even a Z8 sized body. Nikon is really leaning into the long telephotos with the Z system and that's where DX really shines. And they have a huge number of D500 owners to bring up who might not want to give up that reach or pay a ton for FX with resolution they don't want/need.

I wonder how the costs would add up. Just doing a thought experiment if it doesn't have a mechanical shutter there's really no difference between the 2 which is a huge difference from the DSLR days. They could just put in the smaller sensor/IBIS assembly into say a Z8 and a new badge on it. And it still would be a decent bit cheaper since you'd get a lot more DX sized sensors per wafer VS FX.
 
So after reading two threads on DX thoughts with lots of talk of the new A6700, is there a general consensus that the 6700 is the level of performance similar to a D500? I'm talking roughly, but is that what we are hoping for in a Z70 high end type crop? Or something more?

I've never used a D500. I do currently shoot a D7200 and have owned (briefly) the Z50 and A6600. I'm one of those guys that don't see FF as a huge improvement for what I do most of the time. I'd like to get into the mirrorless world, but am waiting right now.
 
I just tried to post a response on the quite lengthy thread "Thoughts on Nikon DX" and was turned away due to the thread being closed. But, I wanted to respond to the following comment by sportyaccordy. Hope I'm not violating a rule I'm not aware of. Don't ban me. Just tell me how to do it differently, please.

"If the Z50 is just a slightly smaller Z5, then yes a DX sensor in a Z6 style body would be meaningfully different. More weathersealing, better balance + stronger mount for longer lenses, more heat capacity to cool for video and high FPS stills.

Heck just the fact that Nikon Z is the only system without even some semblence of this kind of camera is enough justification to make it."


I'm not interested in a Z50 size body, but the Z5-6 larger size for better handling.

Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)
I think we'll see that or maybe even a Z8 sized body. Nikon is really leaning into the long telephotos with the Z system and that's where DX really shines. And they have a huge number of D500 owners to bring up who might not want to give up that reach or pay a ton for FX with resolution they don't want/need.

I wonder how the costs would add up. Just doing a thought experiment if it doesn't have a mechanical shutter there's really no difference between the 2 which is a huge difference from the DSLR days. They could just put in the smaller sensor/IBIS assembly into say a Z8 and a new badge on it. And it still would be a decent bit cheaper since you'd get a lot more DX sized sensors per wafer VS FX.
I do think if you really could pay a lot less to get lower DX resolution but otherwise have all of the higher end features from the FX cameras it would be a reasonable tradeoff for a lot of people, but if the cost difference from one sensor to the other is ultimately only a couple of hundred dollars or so I'm not so sure.



Lately I've been going back and forth between my Z7ii and my D500 and I just think that the Z7 photos are often noticeably better precisely because of the resolution. For instance, here's a pretty good photo I got from the Z7ii recently:



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Now here's a similar shot from the D500:



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They're both good, but I think the extra resolution on the Z has really made a pretty big difference in terms of the extra detail recorded. For instance, both are cropped, but to get this portrait look the D500 shot is cropped to its maximum - try to zoom in or increase the size of the subject in the frame even a little bit and you start to get pretty obvious pixilation. On the other hand, the Z7ii shot has more room to spare in that regard.



When we talk about the extra resolution with DX vs FX we often focus on the very long end where that cropped sensor gives extra "reach." If I take a photo on an FX camera on a long lens and then crop to frame my subject well for the final photo, it's basically the same thing as if I'd just taken it in DX mode, or on a DX sensor, and didn't crop it as much. From that standpoint it makes sense to talk about FX as providing little benefit. On the other hand, whenever I'm photographing things which are not far off, the extra pixels from the FX sensor really can make a huge difference. I think it's something that might get lost in these discussions - but even wildlife and sports photography has its fair share of shots of closer subjects.
 
You are doing very nicely with the Z50. Your work shows your ongoing mastery of this camera.
Thanks Vandyu!

Still learning.

I do hope in the future a higher end Z DX camera comes out.

I would love faster AF...a bit more resolution than 20 MP...more custom function buttons, and more things to assign them to. Maybe higher resolution EVF..and maybe IBIS.

I have 2 cheap small sensor cameras that are faster to change EV and ISO...makes the Nikon cameras seem slower (why?).

They also have more assignable function buttons...and they are electronic companies, not camera companies, like Nikon.

Press a button and I've changed EV...turn a dial and ISO has changed already..come on Nikon..you can also do it.

Also have a Ricoh GXR that also can change things as soon as you press or move a lever....very intuitive.

Anyway..we can hope for a better than Z50/fc/30 DX model to do what the D500 can do, but a bit better.

time will tell

ANAYV
Are you referring, by any chance to Panasonic? I spent some time with the FZ20, FZ150 and FZ200 before going back to Nikon. There were some things I liked about those small cameras, but not the EVF. I missed the optical VF, but now, guess I will get used to not having one when I finally move to mirrorless. The EVF on the Nikons, I believe, are larger and have more resolution, but still are not the same as seeing what the camera sees, not what the camera interprets. Maybe I'm wrong here. Others will illuminate me! ;-)

Here's a chart with the EVF information listed on most recent models:

 
Thanks for posting the two shots. Having these to look at along with your explanation certainly makes the thread educational. My same thoughts for ANAYV's great BIF and DFIF.
 
I just tried to post a response on the quite lengthy thread "Thoughts on Nikon DX" and was turned away due to the thread being closed. But, I wanted to respond to the following comment by sportyaccordy. Hope I'm not violating a rule I'm not aware of. Don't ban me. Just tell me how to do it differently, please.

"If the Z50 is just a slightly smaller Z5, then yes a DX sensor in a Z6 style body would be meaningfully different. More weathersealing, better balance + stronger mount for longer lenses, more heat capacity to cool for video and high FPS stills.

Heck just the fact that Nikon Z is the only system without even some semblence of this kind of camera is enough justification to make it."


I'm not interested in a Z50 size body, but the Z5-6 larger size for better handling.

Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)
Quoting this post, but hoping to keep the context of the whole thread that most believe that with the Z8 we don't even need a D500 mirrorless replacement.

For stills, I can see many people's point on this. Shooting the Z8 in DX mode gives very similar resolution to what the D500 is, and the Z8 is much more capable due to mirrorless specific features (subject recognition, no blackout, 60 fps, etc). I do think the counter-arguments to this are also rather valid, as Z8 DX mode is technically less resolution in a 6-7 year newer camera, both less resolution than competition, pretty much negligible size or weight savings in a mirrorless system, and it costs double (D500 - Z8). These are all stills focused arguments, which is fine because this is generally a stills-focused forum as a whole.

However, I think the argument about no high end DX breaks down the more you think about videography. I thought about this more, as my area's community chat posted the pre-release news of the A6700, and nearly every videographer went nuts and said they were going to order 1-2. 4k60p 4:2:2 10 bit oversampled from 6k seems like a fantastic option, especially in a $1400 camera as light and compact as the a6700. The camera also offers 4k120p, which may be a bit much for some, but others who wish to slow down footage it might be a great option. The 'lowest' tier body Nikon has that does 4k60p is a Z6ii, and 4k120 is a Z8/Z9. Not taking into account the perpetual sale the gen ii bodies are on, the small Sony camera is $600 cheaper than the Nikon one, has the larger battery that is higher capacity than even an ENEL15-C battery, and has advanced video features such as auto-framing.

I'm saying for videographers, you could get two a6700's, two $400 APS-C E-Mount lenses, two $150 SD cards, and two $50 tripods, all for the price of a body-only Z8. A whole two camera setup for 4k120p for the price of a single camera without memory card or lens. I think this the most glaring whole in the Nikon lineup, after the a6700 launch brought my attention to it.

Back to the quoted material, I think Nikon could certainly outshine an a6700 or FX-30, particularly because Nikon somehow can put internal RAW recordings in their cameras without consequence, and Expeed7 has shown it can keep up with 8k60. But in order to accomplish something like this in a DX body, I think Nikon may have to make a DX camera bigger than the Z50, but (hopefully) smaller than a Z8 simply for heat dissipation. I think making a camera as capable as it needs to be for high-end video would make it more than capable for high performance stills shooting as a consequence, rather than the primary intention.

This doesn't change my initial desire for a high performance DX camera that's easy to travel with. Instead, perhaps a DX camera with amazing video features, perhaps even auto-capture, is the next Nikon DX camera to be released. A camera aimed at the scores of videographers with 2-to-3 B-roll and C-roll cameras in their kit looking for an upgrade.
 
For stills, I can see many people's point on this. Shooting the Z8 in DX mode gives very similar resolution to what the D500 is, and the Z8 is much more capable due to mirrorless specific features (subject recognition, no blackout, 60 fps, etc). I do think the counter-arguments to this are also rather valid, as Z8 DX mode is technically less resolution in a 6-7 year newer camera, both less resolution than competition, pretty much negligible size or weight savings in a mirrorless system, and it costs double (D500 - Z8). These are all stills focused arguments, which is fine because this is generally a stills-focused forum as a whole.
Well from my perspective not quite -- I am of the view that a 26MP sensor that shoots 6.1k video is the ideal resolution for most users. But a tiny number of BIF shoots want over 30MP and 30 fps.

The Sony a6700 is great until you look as a wildlife shooter at 11 fps, the single UHS-ii SD card slot (a huge limiter) and the more than likely fact the sensor is not stacked. Which is why the Fujifilm X-H2S (with its stacked sensor and 1x CFexpress Type B, 1x UHS-II SD storage) is still a better camera for wildlife/action shooters than the A6700 will ever be.

It is unclear to me if the Expeed 7 can work with a NON-stacked sensor.
However, I think the argument about no high end DX breaks down the more you think about videography.
Agreed - super 35mm or APS-C video at 6.1k is the bomb. BUT heat in a small body is a very real limiter. Note that during 2020 a lot claimed "Devastating news about the Fujifilm X-H2s, with it's high framerates of 4k 120p and 6k 24p, it's likely that it overheats pretty bad." etc... I did not see definitive robust benchmark tests that one could rely on using the fastest and coolest running CFE-B cards (like Delkin black 650GB or similar). OBVIOUSLY the bolt on cooler must help - but how much? Where are the tests? Here is one Example

And a later similar test without and with the bolt on active cooling fan Here.

I am yet to see a real test of these APS-C camera shot open gate or 6.2k with a high FPS in RAW (or even ProRes) to an onboard storage card. The Z8 and Z9 has been tested by everyone and guess what, when testing in 20 degrees C the Z9 runs great and does not shut down, whereas while the Z8 will fill a a Delkin Black before a 650GB card shooting 8.3k 60fps High Quality N-Raw N-Log (about 14.8 mins); it shuts down after 22-24 mins when writing to a Sabrent Rocket GFX Pro 2TB. [obviously lower data hungry codex allow the camera to run almost unlimitedly].

Red and a host of others added vast active cooling to their bodies. The question is how long do they work for before shutting down when shooting with these high data codex/fps. I own both the z9 and Z8 and know those numbers with my cards. But how well will a DX/APS-C work. Really only the Fuji can give us a clue. [albeit with its limited codex]. AND the reviews I have seen show it struggles A LOT with heat. Again where are the real tests with and without its cooler.

The A6700 writing to an ultra fast V90 card will be a disaster or limited to only work with low data codex, res and low fps.
Back to the quoted material, I think Nikon could certainly outshine an a6700 or FX-30, particularly because Nikon somehow can put internal RAW recordings in their cameras without consequence, and Expeed7 has shown it can keep up with 8k60. But in order to accomplish something like this in a DX body, I think Nikon may have to make a DX camera bigger than the Z50, but (hopefully) smaller than a Z8 simply for heat dissipation.
My thought was for Nikon to issue a Cine version with active cooling -- but that depends on a lot of other moving pieces. Smaller means hotter. So only an bolt on active cooling solution may work.
I think making a camera as capable as it needs to be for high-end video would make it more than capable for high performance stills shooting as a consequence, rather than the primary intention.
Yes -- but please not like the R5C with its dual boot and ......
This doesn't change my initial desire for a high performance DX camera that's easy to travel with. Instead, perhaps a DX camera with amazing video features, perhaps even auto-capture, is the next Nikon DX camera to be released. A camera aimed at the scores of videographers with 2-to-3 B-roll and C-roll cameras in their kit looking for an upgrade.
AND here is the rub - the Z8 is easy to travel with. But not as easy as a much smaller body -- and not a lot of Nikon goodness and the capabilities many desire will fit in small body AND certainly not at the price of the fuji or Sony competitors.

Folk who want a DX Z8 with a 30MP sensor need to save for $4k body. Any lower price point will require savings and this is why the response -- Buy a Z8 is the only right one for now.

--
areallygrumpyoldsod
Nikon and Hasselblad shooter -- wildlife and and --
https://www.andymillerphoto.co.uk/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajm057/
I do not respond to PMs
 
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These are incredible. Can you share your autofocus settings? I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!
 
Right, meanwhile fuji has aps-c 6k
 
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I'm not interested in a Z50 size body, but the Z5-6 larger size for better handling.

Also, the slightly larger body will allow for some of the features that we would want in a Z70-90. I'm in agreement with sportyaccordy and would hope that Nikon gets to work on a higher end DX sometime before the end times. ;-)
I simply want a D500 Mirorless replacement, meaning no smaller than D500/D850 body, at at least the size of Z8 as minimum for me, also own a Z9 but a high end D500 size and style APS-C body with about 30-35MP will get my money right away, a loaded Z50 will never get my money, I also own a few Sony A7R series so I know how much I hate small cameras and that's exactly why I went with Z9 instead of A1, but what do Nikon care about me, they make camera that can sell the most, not just for a small group of people and it seems like everyone wants tiny camera these days, even all the Canon APS-C bodies are so freaking small and uncomfortable to hold, they only reserve the bigger bodies for FF only, so I think I am out of luck when it comes to have a nice APS-C dream.
 
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These are incredible. Can you share your autofocus settings? I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!
Learn when to use the different AF modes to give the best results. Sometimes you'll be better off with wide area, other times you'll want to use dynamic depending on contrast, how well you can track, etc.

Honestly, birds require mostly user skill, camera gear can make it easier, but you'll get a lot of bad shots in the process of getting good ones. I still do, and I've been doing it for years.
 
These are incredible. Can you share your autofocus settings? I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!
Learn when to use the different AF modes to give the best results. Sometimes you'll be better off with wide area, other times you'll want to use dynamic depending on contrast, how well you can track, etc.

Honestly, birds require mostly user skill, camera gear can make it easier, but you'll get a lot of bad shots in the process of getting good ones. I still do, and I've been doing it for years.
Those in photography will always talk about user skill or camera gear. What many don't seem to talk about, location, location, location. A ton on folks will ensure a potentially higher success rates, simply by the location alone.

Then there is the issue of shooting in the right Light for the type of subjects one is shooting and the desired effect. There can be a boat load of Swallows just sitting there waiting to be shot, but if one has only 300mm when the Min needed is 600mm, user skill really won't matter much.

Gordan Lang stated it best, sure, it's good to have all these different AF modes, but having at least 1 mode that basically can ascertain, most subjects, makes one's life, a whole lot easier. Which is a big selling point, for certain brands.
 
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Dump the Mech shutter just like in the Z8/Z9. Make sure it has the nice Auto capture features just released. Body type, I don't get anyone wanting a Z8 sized cropped camera.

Nikon cropped bodies are Long overdue for an entirely new design. So why not start it all off with a proper mirrorless Flagship.

Auto capture, Proper RAW pre capture, decent EVF/LCD, 30MP or more stacked and around $2500, the camera would sell Well enough. Likely would also be the fasting Readout setup of all the brands.
 
These are incredible. Can you share your autofocus settings? I just pre-ordered the 180-600 and would like to shoot more BIF with my Z50.

Thanks!
Learn when to use the different AF modes to give the best results. Sometimes you'll be better off with wide area, other times you'll want to use dynamic depending on contrast, how well you can track, etc.

Honestly, birds require mostly user skill, camera gear can make it easier, but you'll get a lot of bad shots in the process of getting good ones. I still do, and I've been doing it for years.
Those in photography will always talk about user skill or camera gear. What many don't seem to talk about, location, location, location. A ton on folks will ensure a potentially higher success rates, simply by the location alone.
Well, yes, but you can get good shots in a lot of places, and still get a ton of bad shots because someone isn't used to birds at all.

We also can't fix where someone is, and saying "well, you should just move" isn't helpful. I thought it was obvious you'd need to have birds to shoot to get practice, and finding good spots is often part of the learning experience, or it was for me.
Then there is the issue of shooting in the right Light for the type of subjects one is shooting and the desired effect. There can be a boat load of Swallows just sitting there waiting to be shot, but if one has only 300mm when the Min needed is 600mm, user skill really won't matter much.
He's getting a 180-600, he'll be fine on reach.
Gordan Lang stated it best, sure, it's good to have all these different AF modes, but having at least 1 mode that basically can ascertain, most subjects, makes one's life, a whole lot easier. Which is a big selling point, for certain brands.
Wide small works pretty well provided you can track a bird well. Wide large if you can't.

I found them to be good enough on my z7.
 

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