sportyaccordy
Forum Pro
Am I tripping or does Nikon really not have anything between the Z50 and Z5? Yes they absolutely need something like the A6700/X-S20. $1000 is the heart of the APS-C market IMO
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Thoughts on Nikon DX...
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James Stirling
Forum Pro
At current UK prices you can get the Z5+ 24-70s lens which is a very good performer . For the exact same price of the A6700 body only. The Z5 is a fantastic value FF camera at least for stills. With good build and excellent ergonomics , which is not a claim I could make for Sony after owning the A7rII and A7rIII with hands on experience with the A7rIV . For me their ergonomics, general feel etc just did not fit, looking at their APS bodies I suspect this would be even more the case.
An APS body from Nikon with IBIS would be welcome . Though it took Sony A few generations of their APS bodies to add the feature the A6000,A6100, a6300 and A6400 did not have IBIS. They did not release a fixed aperture fast standard zoom for APS until Aug 2019. Other than Fuji I don't think any of the main companies take APS too serious .
Z 5 + 24-70 f/4 S – Grays of Westminster Online Shop
Sony A6700 Digital Camera Body | Wex Photo Video
Nikon Z5 review: the best value stills-oriented full-framer: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
If you look at the latest lens sales data from CIPA you can see why the concentration is on FF lenses. Despite lenses for sensors smaller than FF selling 93000+ more the FF lenses . The FF lenses generated 3.2x the money. Based on latest data to May this year from CIPA
--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
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Chuck Yadmark
Veteran Member
same here, but still thinking about getting the 6700
Clayton1985
Veteran Member
I don't see how "currently it would seem" is any indication of what will happen "in the foreseeable future". It always seems like Nikon isn't releasing something until they do.
24Peter
Veteran Member
Thanks Jim for your thoughtful analysis and I do agree with you (and dpreview) that the Z5 is one of the best (if not the best) stills-oriented full frame camera at the current price.At current UK prices you can get the Z5+ 24-70s lens which is a very good performer . For the exact same price of the A6700 body only. The Z5 is a fantastic value FF camera at least for stills. With good build and excellent ergonomics , which is not a claim I could make for Sony after owning the A7rII and A7rIII with hands on experience with the A7rIV . For me their ergonomics, general feel etc just did not fit, looking at their APS bodies I suspect this would be even more the case.
An APS body from Nikon with IBIS would be welcome . Though it took Sony A few generations of their APS bodies to add the feature the A6000,A6100, a6300 and A6400 did not have IBIS. They did not release a fixed aperture fast standard zoom for APS until Aug 2019. Other than Fuji I don't think any of the main companies take APS too serious .
Z 5 + 24-70 f/4 S – Grays of Westminster Online Shop
Sony A6700 Digital Camera Body | Wex Photo Video
Nikon Z5 review: the best value stills-oriented full-framer: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
If you look at the latest lens sales data from CIPA you can see why the concentration is on FF lenses. Despite lenses for sensors smaller than FF selling 93000+ more the FF lenses . The FF lenses generated 3.2x the money. Based on latest data to May this year from CIPA
Yet... for me, video is integral to my personal and professional creative endeavors as much as stills, and in this regard the Z5 lags way behind. Now, give similar video specs to the existing Z5 (with a fully articulating screen) and I'm happy. The "magic" for me is not DX imaging area per se - rather it's the portability, price and feature set relative to FF these cameras have traditionally offered (over the past 20 years I've always owned at least one FF and one DX camera body at the same time across either the Canon or Nikon brands.)
So let's hope Nikon gets the "A6700 Memo" and gets on board sooner rather than later!
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www.peteralessandriaphotography.com
My DPReview Feature Article
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sportyaccordy
Forum Pro
I actually made a spicy thread citing this exact data!At current UK prices you can get the Z5+ 24-70s lens which is a very good performer . For the exact same price of the A6700 body only. The Z5 is a fantastic value FF camera at least for stills. With good build and excellent ergonomics , which is not a claim I could make for Sony after owning the A7rII and A7rIII with hands on experience with the A7rIV . For me their ergonomics, general feel etc just did not fit, looking at their APS bodies I suspect this would be even more the case.
An APS body from Nikon with IBIS would be welcome . Though it took Sony A few generations of their APS bodies to add the feature the A6000,A6100, a6300 and A6400 did not have IBIS. They did not release a fixed aperture fast standard zoom for APS until Aug 2019. Other than Fuji I don't think any of the main companies take APS too serious .
Z 5 + 24-70 f/4 S – Grays of Westminster Online Shop
Sony A6700 Digital Camera Body | Wex Photo Video
Nikon Z5 review: the best value stills-oriented full-framer: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
If you look at the latest lens sales data from CIPA you can see why the concentration is on FF lenses. Despite lenses for sensors smaller than FF selling 93000+ more the FF lenses . The FF lenses generated 3.2x the money. Based on latest data to May this year from CIPA
Why FF actually makes sense for most manufacturers (to focus on): Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
I know there are plenty of happy and satisfied Z5 shooters so I don't mean to yuck their yum. But for me the value of lower end FF is debatable. In Nikon Z land it's a bit clearer because as you said there are no Z DX bodies with IBIS for example. But is FF worth all the technical tradeoffs a Z5 has compared to an A6700/X-S10? IMO no.
Plus Nikon actually has decent DX glass for Z, so I imagine a competitively specced Z70 (basically a Nikon A6700) would be a huge seller. I think a lot of people are either sitting on the sidelines for such a body or just leaving Nikon altogether- Z5 isn't a bad camera but it's no Z70 substitute.
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Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/
James Stirling
Forum Pro
Though I do a reasonable amount of video for fun . I am mostly a landscape macro shooter so my wants are selfishThanks Jim for your thoughtful analysis and I do agree with you (and dpreview) that the Z5 is one of the best (if not the best) stills-oriented full frame camera at the current price.At current UK prices you can get the Z5+ 24-70s lens which is a very good performer . For the exact same price of the A6700 body only. The Z5 is a fantastic value FF camera at least for stills. With good build and excellent ergonomics , which is not a claim I could make for Sony after owning the A7rII and A7rIII with hands on experience with the A7rIV . For me their ergonomics, general feel etc just did not fit, looking at their APS bodies I suspect this would be even more the case.
An APS body from Nikon with IBIS would be welcome . Though it took Sony A few generations of their APS bodies to add the feature the A6000,A6100, a6300 and A6400 did not have IBIS. They did not release a fixed aperture fast standard zoom for APS until Aug 2019. Other than Fuji I don't think any of the main companies take APS too serious .
Z 5 + 24-70 f/4 S – Grays of Westminster Online Shop
Sony A6700 Digital Camera Body | Wex Photo Video
Nikon Z5 review: the best value stills-oriented full-framer: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
If you look at the latest lens sales data from CIPA you can see why the concentration is on FF lenses. Despite lenses for sensors smaller than FF selling 93000+ more the FF lenses . The FF lenses generated 3.2x the money. Based on latest data to May this year from CIPA
Yet... for me, video is integral to my personal and professional creative endeavors as much as stills, and in this regard the Z5 lags way behind. Now, give similar video specs to the existing Z5 (with a fully articulating screen) and I'm happy. The "magic" for me is not DX imaging area per se - rather it's the portability, price and feature set relative to FF these cameras have traditionally offered (over the past 20 years I've always owned at least one FF and one DX camera body at the same time across either the Canon or Nikon brands.)
So let's hope Nikon gets the "A6700 Memo" and gets on board sooner rather than later!
I did think for my interests an APS body with IBIS with the 14-30mm would make for an interesting combo for my uses covering a FF 21-45mm where I shoot a lot . Considering the D500 in 2016 was their last high end APS I don't know if such a mirrorless will be on the plans . though Nikon is capable of a surprise or two --
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
James Stirling
Forum Pro
It has been a long time in digital years since Nikon made a high end APS cameraI actually made a spicy thread citing this exact data!At current UK prices you can get the Z5+ 24-70s lens which is a very good performer . For the exact same price of the A6700 body only. The Z5 is a fantastic value FF camera at least for stills. With good build and excellent ergonomics , which is not a claim I could make for Sony after owning the A7rII and A7rIII with hands on experience with the A7rIV . For me their ergonomics, general feel etc just did not fit, looking at their APS bodies I suspect this would be even more the case.
An APS body from Nikon with IBIS would be welcome . Though it took Sony A few generations of their APS bodies to add the feature the A6000,A6100, a6300 and A6400 did not have IBIS. They did not release a fixed aperture fast standard zoom for APS until Aug 2019. Other than Fuji I don't think any of the main companies take APS too serious .
Z 5 + 24-70 f/4 S – Grays of Westminster Online Shop
Sony A6700 Digital Camera Body | Wex Photo Video
Nikon Z5 review: the best value stills-oriented full-framer: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
If you look at the latest lens sales data from CIPA you can see why the concentration is on FF lenses. Despite lenses for sensors smaller than FF selling 93000+ more the FF lenses . The FF lenses generated 3.2x the money. Based on latest data to May this year from CIPA
Why FF actually makes sense for most manufacturers (to focus on): Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
I know there are plenty of happy and satisfied Z5 shooters so I don't mean to yuck their yum. But for me the value of lower end FF is debatable. In Nikon Z land it's a bit clearer because as you said there are no Z DX bodies with IBIS for example. But is FF worth all the technical tradeoffs a Z5 has compared to an A6700/X-S10? IMO no.
Plus Nikon actually has decent DX glass for Z, so I imagine a competitively specced Z70 (basically a Nikon A6700) would be a huge seller. I think a lot of people are either sitting on the sidelines for such a body or just leaving Nikon altogether-
Well it does exist at least
--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Don't know yet. As I mentioned in the article the Fujifilm X-S20 comes in about the same size and weight. But you'd have to consider options from Canon, Fujifilm, OM Digital Systems, and Sony, I'd think.
And you can't consider those bodies in isolation. You also have to consider what lens(es) you need. That opens up a big can of worms, and there's not a lot of help out there trying to sort through it.
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Everything NIkon (DSLR and mirrorless) is 12% of the total market. Nikon's already said they're not interested in market share. But then they produce consumer DX triplets that seem to indicate they are. My argument has been and will continue that Z70 and above is where they should be if they're not pursuing market share.
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
You're buying on price. My point has been about usability. The Z5 combo is 41.5 ounces (1175g), while a Sony A6700 with the Sigma f/2.8 zoom is 27.7 ounces (784g). You're getting close to saving a pound.
And then there's this: the Z5's autofocus isn't state of the art, just like the Z5 problem.
Sort of. Unfortunately those stats include kit lenses, which on the smaller format cameras are often bought with the camera, whereas most of the full frame bodies are bought sans lens these days. Moreover, if you look around at a lot of crop sensor users, you'll find that many of them are using full frame lenses ;~).
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
2017 (D7500), which is a year after Sony introduced the A6500.
Look, I think we have plenty of evidence at this point to see that Nikon's strategy with crop sensor changed with mirrorless. The problem I see with that is exactly what I've written about this week: it leaves them with a big hole in the middle of their product lineup. You can't really move DX triplet users up, you can't compete against the competition in the middle, nor do you have a camera that would appeal to the top enthusiast/pros as a more casual camera. That's three strikes...
24Peter
Veteran Member
I tend to agree Thom. Let's hope Nikon gets the "A6700 Memo." I'm sure Nikon is watching what their competitors are up to and this new offering from SONY may push Nikon to fill the gap you mention.
In Nikon's view the ONLY long-term traditional camera users are FF users if their restructuring strategy is to be believed. If you are a DX user, you are definitely on shaky ground with Nikon. Their competitors appear to be trying to squeeze the depleted turnip with a new flurry of APS products, but with the exception of Sony aren't existentially dependent on it.
A responsible long term strategy for Nikon with the clearly permanent collapse of the casual crop sensor market is to find other markets. They have been buying up industrial companies that can benefit from their optical expertise for years. Nikon has always been more comfortable playing in the industrial markets, and for them the writing is on the wall in the distance for their consumer/professional portable imaging business.
You're right to be uninspired by Nikon's concern for certain long-term users. But it is a long term strategy.
commiebiker
Senior Member
Just my personal opinion
It's obvious that there is a lot of interest in a higher end, cropped sensor camera from Nikon, so it would probably be a good business decision to build one
As a customer, count me as "not interested". If the pictures are important enough (ie getting paid for them) I'll suck it up and take what I need.
For personal projects, if I'm traveling and want to save weight or space, I still have a functioning A7S and A7R. Both of these cameras weigh about the same as the new A6700. Of course, that extra $1,500 in my wallet might add a little weight, but that can be easily reduced!
A6700: 493 grams
A7S: 489 grams
A7R: 474 grams
What exactly are we saving here?
Berend Botje
Leading Member
To put it more clearly, I think Nikon should already have released a more advanced DX camera by now if they want to remain competitive in this part of the market.
Berend Botje
Leading Member
I agree with you about where you see Nikon heading as business. But that is a (maybe necessary) long-term strategy for Nikon as business. It may, indeed, not be a long-term strategy for the users of its consumer camera equipment.
archerscreek
Senior Member
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My Z 6II was light and compact enough for me, but I never took it anywhere after getting a Z9 because it was so much less capable and user friendly than the Z9.
I don’t care how light and compact a new body is, FX or DX, it’s not worth buying if it isn’t capable enough. If using a smaller DX sensor allows Nikon to bring Z8/9 capability into a size/weight/price package that rivals the Fuji X-H2S, then I would buy it because I know I would use it. Anything short of that I personally won’t bother with it.
I don’t care how light and compact a new body is, FX or DX, it’s not worth buying if it isn’t capable enough. If using a smaller DX sensor allows Nikon to bring Z8/9 capability into a size/weight/price package that rivals the Fuji X-H2S, then I would buy it because I know I would use it. Anything short of that I personally won’t bother with it.
Clayton1985
Veteran Member
I agree with you but you could also argue that the Z8 was critical and the Z6III is equally critical and Nikon has been playing catch up for years and they have to prioritize. I'd be disappointed if Nikon didn't have the same concerns as you do about an advanced DX and a Z6III or similar camera.
*IF* Nikon had been serious about DX then maybe I'd be using DX Z right now, but after trying Fuji and Sony, I opted to move to a Z5 for mirrorless. I had been using a D7500 (and a D7000 before that and a Sony A700 before that) with lenses like the 16-80/2.8-4. So moving to a Z5 with the 24-200 doesn't represent a move to a "big" camera (and there are small lens options available if I need them). One of the things I realized while shooting the Sony a6xxx gear and then the Fuji X-S10 is that the smaller DX gear isn't smaller enough for me to justify having it in addition to a primary kit (the D7500 in the past; the Z5 now). When I want something significantly more convenient, I've got my "OG" RX100 (that's getting a little creaky now ... I can see maybe replacing that when it dies with a z30 & kit lens).
Anyway, FF Z offers tremendous 24-xx(x) zooms while APS-C systems don't. The Fuji 16-80 isn't inspiring nor is the Sony 16-70/4 (I tried and returned one of those). m43 has good 12-xx lenses, but then the 12-100/4 on a body with a big, bright EVF, a decent grip and good controls is close in size & weight (and higher in price!) than my Z5.
The Z5 works for me because I fall into a subset of the Nikon D7xxx users who don't need an action camera. Sure, I shoot some photos of our cats and kids jumping in the pool and what not, but it's infrequent enough (and unimportant enough) that I'm content with the success rates I get from good old fashioned methods (prefocus & wait). Meanwhile, the Z5 is still more than sufficient for my landscapes, macros, travel and all purpose family photographs. Rewind 10 years when I'm doing shots of my daughter's sports & other activities and I'd have a little more of a quandary - pony up for a higher end FF body or wish for a higher end DX body ... and lenses. Maybe I wouldn't have chosen Nikon for mirrorless. Maybe I would have spent more on a higher end body (tough call there because even when I bought my Z5, the word on the street was that the Z6/7 weren't all that much better ...but there's a lot of mystery out there as to what constitutes good AF. I was always happy with what the D7500 delivered. I don't know how that compares to mirrorless bodies that the collective wisdom of the net says are unsuitable versus the flagship offerings that everyone seems to say you need to take a decent picture these days!
At this point in time, having settled on FF, then only purpose of a higher end DX body for me would be to pair with an up-to-400mm lens for backyard wildlife (like I'm doing now with the D7500). If such a camera had better AF than my Z5 then it might be worthwhile but only if the pricing is reasonable (closer to D7500 level than D500 level - more A6700 than XT5). But that's just me - otherwise, I think there's still a group of DSLR users who want the more advanced tech features of a higher end body at DX pricing (not Z8 pricing). I'm sure that group has shrunk over the last couple years and will continue to shrink so there will probably be diminishing returns the longer Nikon waits to do something here.
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