Wide question about vintage lenses and modern performance

Sjak · Mar 22, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
Thank you!

Yes I just read that some lenses from m mount had issues with mirrors (obviously not a problem here) and some would have focus issues. But maybe I misunderstood.

The focusing refers to use on a rangefinder-camera. It's not that easy to pin focus at 90mm wide open with a rangefinder.

Member said:
Worries me more that Ken Rockwell says this lens is good first on f4. I don't want a 90 mm lens on f4.

Nobody forces you to shoot at f/4

It depends what "good" means to someone. Wide open, these lenses have gorgeous rendering for portraits.

But it's a 60-year old optical design. If you prefer a modern look, buy a modern lens

Member said:
And that guy usually say every leica lens is top notch wide open and usually test them on 12 mpx

Check the date of the test

Many tests are still from the days of the M8 (10MP) or M9 (18MP)

Member said:
So now I have my doubts

Take your time. It's not a life-saving medicine.

Sjak · Mar 22, 2023

Also had a quick glance at KR's site; it's unclear which exact version of the Summicron-90 he's actually testing. He states it's the "1959 to 1980 version", but that's actually 2 versions: v1 ran from 57-60 and v.2, which had similar optical design but made of different glass, was made from 1963-1976. This type of inaccuracy gives you a hint how serious you can take his reviews

Also, he doesn't say it's not good at f/2, he's rather positive. Whether his assessment match your personal taste is a different story of course.

JW PHOTO · Mar 22, 2023

I have both the 90mm f2.8 R Elmarit and the 90mm f2 R Summicron (non-APO). I use them on a Sony A7RII, and they are both very good. If I were to sell one, it would be the Summicron. Why? Because I think the 90mm Elmarit is the better of the two. Oh, and it's also far cheaper. Of course, if I could buy a 90mm f2 Summicron in the same condition as mine for $350.00 I'd buy it for sure. Then I'd probably sell both of them for a handsome profit.

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 23, 2023

Ok, guys I bought it! Not with the intention to make money of it, but to keep it and because it seems like it's a good deal!

Now I'll get a M mount to RF adapter.

I'm assuming this M lens won't work with my Pentax K-1 due to the mirror etc and this being a rangefinder lens?

Sjak · Mar 23, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
I'm assuming this M lens won't work with my Pentax K-1 due to the mirror etc and this being a rangefinder lens?

M-mount has a shorter register-distance then K-mount, so it will not work on a K-camera.

Enjoy your new lens!

I've had a copy of this version too, what I liked most was the transition of out-of-focus to in-focus to out-of-focus. But on a Leica M, I find it a little bit on the large side. I've also had the Summicron-R (pre-APO) and v.III Summicron M. I really liked these, but eventually sold as I don't much use 90mm.

calvin83 · Mar 23, 2023

It can be adapter to K mount if we remove the lens head and put it into a helicoid. ;-)

Sjak · Mar 23, 2023

calvin83 said:
It can be adapter to K mount if we remove the lens head and put it into a helicoid. ;-)

O yes, you're right, on v1&2, the head can be removed and mounted on a bellows for macro, or indeed helicoid for more general use.

Heritage Cameras · Mar 23, 2023

calvin83 said:
It can be adapter to K mount if we remove the lens head and put it into a helicoid. ;-)

Here's a zombie page that explains the concept:

Adapters: Visoflex to SLR
https://web.archive.org/web/20120308175132/http://www.cameraquest.com/frames/4saleViso.htm

[Edit]...and here's a much more comprehensive version:

The Venerable Visoflex: Transforming rangefinder Leicas into SLRs | Rangefinderforum

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/th...sforming-rangefinder-leicas-into-slrs.177234/

backsidewalkaround · Mar 25, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
Thank you!

Yes I just read that some lenses from m mount had issues with mirrors (obviously not a problem here) and some would have focus issues. But maybe I misunderstood.

Worries me more that Ken Rockwell says this lens is good first on f4. I don't want a 90 mm lens on f4.

And that guy usually say every leica lens is top notch wide open and usually test them on 12 mpx

So now I have my doubts

I think you've got it all wrong. Vintage lenses, not even a Summicron-M 2/50 is as sharp and contrasty wide open as the best modern lenses. If that's what you're after get the most recent Voigtlander APO kind or something similar.
Vintage lenses are sought after for other reasons. Their colours "feel" more natural. They often exhibit some softness wide open, which is exactly the reason why they're bought. It's that vintage charm that many people are after. On the other hand stopped down to f/8 many vintage lenses perform on par with most modern lenses.
Other advantages are:
- Vintage lenses hold their value, they are usually quite compact and are built to last, can be serviced more easily than modern lenses, even by amateurs with some experience (unless you need spare parts of course).
So sum it up: You won't find superior wide open sharpness with vintage lenses, but many other sought after qualities.
So have fun with your Summicron, I'm sure it's great (I have the R pre APO). Having fun shooting vintage lenses is also part of the appeal, because you have to be much more aware of your settings than just shooting with AF and automatic exposure.

--
Flickr
TheOtherSideOfBokeh

Sjak · Mar 25, 2023

backsidewalkaround said:
I think you've got it all wrong. Vintage lenses,

that's also my impression from this thread

backsidewalkaround said:
not even a Summicron-M 2/50 is as sharp and contrasty wide open as the best modern lenses.

It depends on the version: the APO, latest version is very contrasty, and is one of the (technically) best modern lenses. But the price (8000 euro) of this lens would be a high threshold for many of us.

backsidewalkaround said:
If that's what you're after get the most recent Voigtlander APO kind or something similar.
Vintage lenses are sought after for other reasons. Their colours "feel" more natural. They often exhibit some softness wide open, which is exactly the reason why they're bought. It's that vintage charm that many people are after. On the other hand stopped down to f/8 many vintage lenses perform on par with most modern lenses.
Other advantages are:
- Vintage lenses hold their value, they are usually quite compact and are built to last, can be serviced more easily than modern lenses, even by amateurs with some experience (unless you need spare parts of course).
So sum it up: You won't find superior wide open sharpness with vintage lenses, but many other sought after qualities.
So have fun with your Summicron, I'm sure it's great (I have the R pre APO). Having fun shooting vintage lenses is also part of the appeal, because you have to be much more aware of your settings than just shooting with AF and automatic exposure.

Agree, well said!

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 25, 2023

Ok guys so as mentioned I got the leica summicron 90mm f2 and it's a beauty. Wow. A little long but that's okay.

And I've ordered a zeiss planar 35f2 with an adapter that let's me regulate manual focus on my Canon r5.

And I bought a $60 minolta 35-70 f/3.5.

And I ordered a Olympus zuiko 35mm f/2.8.

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 25, 2023

Yes and I bought a Fuji x-t30 second hand for $500.

Miss having a Fuji so thinking it can also use the new legacy Glass. I bet they do better on the tiny sensor too so

backsidewalkaround · Mar 25, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
Ok guys so as mentioned I got the leica summicron 90mm f2 and it's a beauty. Wow. A little long but that's okay.

And I've ordered a zeiss planar 35f2 with an adapter that let's me regulate manual focus on my Canon r5.

And I bought a $60 minolta 35-70 f/3.5.

And I ordered a Olympus zuiko 35mm f/2.8.

Sounds great, all good choices (haven't had that particular OM lens, but I have no doubt it's a good one), except for the 35mm Planar (which is a Distagon I suppose and maybe an f/2.8 lens?).

Now I would hit the brakes with the buying frenzy and start the using and getting to know kind of frenzy :-D. So go out and have fun!

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 27, 2023

No it's a 35mm f2 zeiss planar in g mount

Added a Tokina RMC 17mm f3.5 (in K Mount) and a Leica R 50mm f2 Summicron since it's so easy to adapt to my Pentax K-1 too.

Now I'm done with my little frenzy.

7 lenses, but it would amount to not even 1 Canon RF 85mm 1.2 so I don't feel guilty

Only lens I maybe regret ordering now is the Tokina RMC 17mm f 3.5, maybe I overpaid.

I'm mostly looking forward to using the two leica lenses and the Zeiss. I'm not expecting them to be tack sharp but to have character, and if I treat the leica lenses well they may also be an investment.

The Minolta 35-70 was only $55 or so local in my country. The Pentax 28 3.5 cost me around $150 so it wasn't very cheap either but has been on my wish list for some time plus I also have a few pentax analog cameras like the Pentax MZ3 that I can use with all k mount lenses. Adding to that I have existing adapters to fuji and canon from k mount so buying k mount lenses is the cheapest, since those adapters cost a bit when adding.

Sjak · Mar 27, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
Only lens I maybe regret ordering now is the Tokina RMC 17mm f 3.5, maybe I overpaid.

Vintage ultrawides are rare and that reflects in the price. It's uncommon to find this under 100 euro.

I've use this lens on my K-1, it's actually very nice once you get to use its strengths.

For overview-type of shots, stopping down to f/11 is a good idea, but you can also get very close to a subject and shoot wide open; this sucks the viewer into the image. I'll check if I can find samples. I sold it in a clearance last year (together with lots of other stuff) as I had to get a replacement for my CCD Monochrom.

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 27, 2023

Glad to hear, Sjak! Another reason I got the 17mm is it adapts well to apc with staying relatively wide (around 26mm in ff terms) since I'm not planning on buying any fuji lenses for the used X-T30 i got

LarsHP · Mar 27, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
No it's a 35mm f2 zeiss planar in g mount

That rangefinder lens will most likely have outward bending field curvature and possibly smearing near the corners on your Canon R camera, since it was designed for film. The glass in front of the sensor is the reason for this.

You will typically see this wide open when focusing at a few meters with a background far away. The background will be blurred in the center, but much sharper near the edges. If you stop down well (like f/8) and focus carefully, you may get good overall sharpness.

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 27, 2023

LarsHP said:
Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:

No it's a 35mm f2 zeiss planar in g mount

Click to expand...

That rangefinder lens will most likely have outward bending field curvature and possibly smearing near the corners on your Canon R camera, since it was designed for film. The glass in front of the sensor is the reason for this.

You will typically see this wide open when focusing at a few meters with a background far away. The background will be blurred in the center, but much sharper near the edges. If you stop down well (like f/8) and focus carefully, you may get good overall sharpness.

Søren

So it seems like this maybe was a silly investment. Well hey you live and learn.

Gearacquisitionsyndrom · Mar 27, 2023

On the other hand, for $400 the Contax zeiss planar 35f 2 also included a Contax G1. It wasnt perfect the camera, supposedly the shutter had issues opening if you pressed "shoot" before autofocus was there. But that's okay, the camera house was just a bonus for me really.

LarsHP · Mar 27, 2023

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:
LarsHP said:

Gearacquisitionsyndrom said:

No it's a 35mm f2 zeiss planar in g mount

Click to expand...

That rangefinder lens will most likely have outward bending field curvature and possibly smearing near the corners on your Canon R camera, since it was designed for film. The glass in front of the sensor is the reason for this.

You will typically see this wide open when focusing at a few meters with a background far away. The background will be blurred in the center, but much sharper near the edges. If you stop down well (like f/8) and focus carefully, you may get good overall sharpness.

Click to expand...

Søren So it seems like this maybe was a silly investment. Well hey you live and learn.

For reference, compact, rangefinder wide angle (and several normal) lenses usually have this issue. The focal lengths that almost always causes outward bending field curvature on digital cameras are 35mm and 28mm (rangefinder) lenses. The exceptions are retro focus design lenses. Some of the super wides are retro focus designs, but very few of the 35mm and 28mm lenses are.

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