DPReview Shutdown Thread - Nikon Z

anotherMike said:

Wow, 20 years since I came on here as a brand new D100 owner in March of 2003!

In the early days, I was a digital newbie - I discovered quite quickly that having a degree from RIT from the film era meant little when it came to digital in some ways, so that meant a serious amount of education and exploring was in order. Today I wouldn't shoot film if you paid me to. From a lens perspective, at that time I was a test site junkie - give me the score, that was all you needed. Oh how wrong I was.

Thanks to Thom Hogan for the education, through his CDs and writings, in the early days of digital, and thanks to some great authors (Dan Margulis, Martin Evening, a few more whose names have faded) as I got a lot better in the digital realm fairly quickly. Lots of reading, lots of shooting.

From a lens perspective, being a test oriented person, I always had trouble with the correlation I wasn't seeing between the few available test sites and real life, and thankfully ran into Rorsletts great site back then, and learned a lot. Further reading, probably peaking in the past 5 years with the contributions from ex dpreview contributor Brandon Dube, an actual lens design student (and now designer) and the great writings and tests from Roger Cicala totally and completely re-educated me. Every article I could read, every book, every interview, I tackled to try and better understand the complexity of evaluating, truly evaluating, lens performance. I think I have a good handle on what occurs today, but I also remember that in the early days, I was wrong. A lot. So that means what I write today might be different from what I learn next week. Got to remind myself to never stop thinking, and to admit being wrong should new knowledge supplant old.

My two sided personality (either really nice or highly aggressive) didn't likely garner me a lot of "forum friends" along the way, but I am what I am, and call things like I see them. I still struggle to understand why so many are so emotionally attached to gear, to the point of being so vile and threatening, including in messages. I have always been one who believes in passing along knowledge, and hope I've done so, but the other side of the coin is I don't suffer fools or idiots at all, probably less so than anyone on the planet. And that's where the frustration side of dpreview forums certainly came in. Too many old, obstinate posters unwilling to learn, unwilling to admit they were wrong, and likely incapable of learning. A sad state. Between that and the dual obsession of test charts and MTF50 scores on one hand and the addition to some random, likely paid-off Youtuber on the other hand, it's even sadder. Add in the psuedo-science ("internal contrast", "inter tonal detail", etc) and the garbage that came out of the "all modern lenses render flat" nonsense, it's even more maddening.

On the positive side, I've "met" a lot of very interesting people in the forums and had some great discussions through messages and conversations in threads. I'll miss that, and for some folks, I'll continue that via other methods. I don't see joining a new site and continuing with forum contributions from here on - 20 years is likely enough, but we'll see how I feel about it down the road. I'm sure I'll have a few posts to write before the "end" of this site though.

Overall, it was a good run. I hope I've been able to reach a few folks with defensible, logical arguments that explained things that might lead to someones *own* exploration and testing - I never proclaimed to be the ultimate lens whisperer - I just want people to think on their own and go a bit deeper than what appears on the surface. As usual, I'll leave everyone with this, my oft quoted saying that is so vitally important: "Nothing can be more potentially misleading than an incomplete or improperly done test".

And that's that...

-m

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fstws6 said:

I have emailed petapixel editor to aee if they can recreate these forums over there..

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T O Shooter said:

Good riddance. About 3 years overdue. Not what it was and certainly not what it seems.

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mosswings said:

Sigh.
DPR was one of the first sites I logged into every morning since 2007. The reviews and data helped guide me into the digital ILC world back then, and I relished the technical discussions that went on in this and other DPR forums, like Photographic Science, Retouching, and others. Marianne Oelund's PDAF deep dive from 2014 made me a lifer. Fortunately that thread has been taken up by PhotonstoPhotos.com, but all the other posters I've enjoyed - horshack, beatboxa, bobn2, the list is huge - now vanish into memory. What a loss.
On the other hand, perhaps this will give me more time to practice photography instead of participating in the community. It's not like I NEEDED more camera gear...just encouragement.
To all who I have agreed with, disagreed with, learned from, taught, and laughed with:
Thank You. May your art always be in your images, and your joy in living always visible.
Peace.

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tundracamper said:

anotherMike said:

Wow, 20 years since I came on here as a brand new D100 owner in March of 2003!

In the early days, I was a digital newbie - I discovered quite quickly that having a degree from RIT from the film era meant little when it came to digital in some ways, so that meant a serious amount of education and exploring was in order. Today I wouldn't shoot film if you paid me to. From a lens perspective, at that time I was a test site junkie - give me the score, that was all you needed. Oh how wrong I was.

Thanks to Thom Hogan for the education, through his CDs and writings, in the early days of digital, and thanks to some great authors (Dan Margulis, Martin Evening, a few more whose names have faded) as I got a lot better in the digital realm fairly quickly. Lots of reading, lots of shooting.

From a lens perspective, being a test oriented person, I always had trouble with the correlation I wasn't seeing between the few available test sites and real life, and thankfully ran into Rorsletts great site back then, and learned a lot. Further reading, probably peaking in the past 5 years with the contributions from ex dpreview contributor Brandon Dube, an actual lens design student (and now designer) and the great writings and tests from Roger Cicala totally and completely re-educated me. Every article I could read, every book, every interview, I tackled to try and better understand the complexity of evaluating, truly evaluating, lens performance. I think I have a good handle on what occurs today, but I also remember that in the early days, I was wrong. A lot. So that means what I write today might be different from what I learn next week. Got to remind myself to never stop thinking, and to admit being wrong should new knowledge supplant old.

My two sided personality (either really nice or highly aggressive) didn't likely garner me a lot of "forum friends" along the way, but I am what I am, and call things like I see them. I still struggle to understand why so many are so emotionally attached to gear, to the point of being so vile and threatening, including in messages. I have always been one who believes in passing along knowledge, and hope I've done so, but the other side of the coin is I don't suffer fools or idiots at all, probably less so than anyone on the planet. And that's where the frustration side of dpreview forums certainly came in. Too many old, obstinate posters unwilling to learn, unwilling to admit they were wrong, and likely incapable of learning. A sad state. Between that and the dual obsession of test charts and MTF50 scores on one hand and the addition to some random, likely paid-off Youtuber on the other hand, it's even sadder. Add in the psuedo-science ("internal contrast", "inter tonal detail", etc) and the garbage that came out of the "all modern lenses render flat" nonsense, it's even more maddening.

On the positive side, I've "met" a lot of very interesting people in the forums and had some great discussions through messages and conversations in threads. I'll miss that, and for some folks, I'll continue that via other methods. I don't see joining a new site and continuing with forum contributions from here on - 20 years is likely enough, but we'll see how I feel about it down the road. I'm sure I'll have a few posts to write before the "end" of this site though.

Overall, it was a good run. I hope I've been able to reach a few folks with defensible, logical arguments that explained things that might lead to someones *own* exploration and testing - I never proclaimed to be the ultimate lens whisperer - I just want people to think on their own and go a bit deeper than what appears on the surface. As usual, I'll leave everyone with this, my oft quoted saying that is so vitally important: "Nothing can be more potentially misleading than an incomplete or improperly done test".

And that's that...

-m

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And I’ve learned a ton from your numerous posts. Thank you, anotherMike! Gonna miss reading your insights here.

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kenw said:

I'll be a bit of a naysayer here...

DPR content beyond the forums has not really been adding much value to the Nikon user for many, many years now. The "reviews" have tended to be late and brief compared to the famous DPR reviews of the distant past.

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kenw said:

There are many alternatives for reviews on smaller sites and often forum users are providing more useful information than the "official" DPR content was.

Probably the huge database of controlled studio shots is really the main "review" asset that DPR has continued to provide. That is a resource that will probably be missed, though to be honest in this day and age of nearly identical sensor performance it is mostly just used to argue with each other about vanishingly small differences between cameras.

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kenw said:

What has always been of utility has been the forums and that utility is derived from the forum members of course. So I'd suggest the next couple of weeks be spent figuring out where everyone should migrate too. If the forum pulls off the migration and brings most of the users together again then much of what was useful from DPR will be preserved and continue to be useful.

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Lance B said:

So, after being on here for almost 19 years and almost 35,000 posts, the site is going to close. A pity, as there are so many very knowledgeable people here that have been a great help to all, people like AnotherMike, Marianne Oelund, Bobn2, Jim Kasson and many, many more. Some excellent photographers as well and many lovely people.

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Lance B said:

Anyway, there are a number of excellent Nikon forums which have already been suggested by others. Hope to see you there.

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Berend Botje said:

CRITICAL QUESTION: WHO 'OWNS' DPREVIEW FORUMS?
It is sad DPReview.com is closing - for its employees and its users.
HOWEVER, THERE IS REAL PROBLEM WITH THE CLOSING OF THE FORUMS: IT IS PROFOUNDLY UNDEMOCRATIC AND SHOWS A DISREGARD FOR THE WORK OF ITS USERS
I have learned so much over the years from other users about the cameras and techniques we use. Many of these users have generously shared their insights and ideas and helped me and each other to become better photographers.
Yes, I understand we all used the infrastructure provided by DPReview.com - a business. But DPReview does not 'own' the work of all who poured their energy into this site, and it would not have become DPReview.com without the work of those who shared their ideas, time, and insights.
THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPLY UNDEMOCRATIC ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH DPREVIEW.COM CORPORATE JUST PULLS THE PLUG WITHOUT EVEN SO MUCH AS A DISCUSSION OR ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE WORK OF THE THOUSANDS OF USERS WHO HAVE MADE THIS SITE WHAT IT IS

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mosswings said:

Berend Botje said:

CRITICAL QUESTION: WHO 'OWNS' DPREVIEW FORUMS?
It is sad DPReview.com is closing - for its employees and its users.
HOWEVER, THERE IS REAL PROBLEM WITH THE CLOSING OF THE FORUMS: IT IS PROFOUNDLY UNDEMOCRATIC AND SHOWS A DISREGARD FOR THE WORK OF ITS USERS
I have learned so much over the years from other users about the cameras and techniques we use. Many of these users have generously shared their insights and ideas and helped me and each other to become better photographers.
Yes, I understand we all used the infrastructure provided by DPReview.com - a business. But DPReview does not 'own' the work of all who poured their energy into this site, and it would not have become DPReview.com without the work of those who shared their ideas, time, and insights.
THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPLY UNDEMOCRATIC ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH DPREVIEW.COM CORPORATE JUST PULLS THE PLUG WITHOUT EVEN SO MUCH AS A DISCUSSION OR ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE WORK OF THE THOUSANDS OF USERS WHO HAVE MADE THIS SITE WHAT IT IS

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When we created an account on this forum site, we agreed to abide by its rules and regulations. Here is a relevant passage from the "legal" link on dpreview.com:

We acknowledge that, as between you and us, copyright and ownership of any uploaded image, forum posting, or other copyrightable content in connection with the Web Site remains yours. With respect to comments or other text-based content you submit or make available for inclusion, you grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable and fully sublicensable right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform, translate, create derivative works from and publicly display such content throughout the world in any medium. With respect to photographic content that you submit or make available for inclusion, you grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, distribute, reproduce, publicly perform, and to publicly display such content on the Web Site or any of our affiliates web sites or mobile applications.
"Use" includes "destroy". Unfortunately, a chat forum site is not a library, although one of sufficient longevity and popularity such as DPR ad hoc may function as one. Ultimately, however, your only recourse to preserving your or other's content is to download it and store it on your own equipment. DPR has made it relatively painless to reclaim your own content - just click on your account icon and look for "download my data". They'll collect and send you a link to it within a reasonable period of time.
Also unfortunately, businesses aren't run as democratic governments; we the users have no official voice in the operation of the business, and we signed away the possibility of any such privilege when we joined.

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Terrible Photographer said:

How is Amazon NOT making money off this site? This doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

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Berend Botje said:

I am sure legally the owners of DPReview.com can do what are planning to do. But that does not change that those plans IMO are utterly disrespectful towards the user/contributors who have helped make this site into what it is.

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pcgeekesq said:

Berend Botje said:

I am sure legally the owners of DPReview.com can do what are planning to do. But that does not change that those plans IMO are utterly disrespectful towards the user/contributors who have helped make this site into what it is.

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It's Amazon. Why would you expect any better from them?

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Berend Botje said:

mosswings said:

Berend Botje said:

CRITICAL QUESTION: WHO 'OWNS' DPREVIEW FORUMS?
It is sad DPReview.com is closing - for its employees and its users.
HOWEVER, THERE IS REAL PROBLEM WITH THE CLOSING OF THE FORUMS: IT IS PROFOUNDLY UNDEMOCRATIC AND SHOWS A DISREGARD FOR THE WORK OF ITS USERS
I have learned so much over the years from other users about the cameras and techniques we use. Many of these users have generously shared their insights and ideas and helped me and each other to become better photographers.
Yes, I understand we all used the infrastructure provided by DPReview.com - a business. But DPReview does not 'own' the work of all who poured their energy into this site, and it would not have become DPReview.com without the work of those who shared their ideas, time, and insights.
THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPLY UNDEMOCRATIC ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH DPREVIEW.COM CORPORATE JUST PULLS THE PLUG WITHOUT EVEN SO MUCH AS A DISCUSSION OR ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE WORK OF THE THOUSANDS OF USERS WHO HAVE MADE THIS SITE WHAT IT IS

Click to expand...

When we created an account on this forum site, we agreed to abide by its rules and regulations. Here is a relevant passage from the "legal" link on dpreview.com:

We acknowledge that, as between you and us, copyright and ownership of any uploaded image, forum posting, or other copyrightable content in connection with the Web Site remains yours. With respect to comments or other text-based content you submit or make available for inclusion, you grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable and fully sublicensable right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform, translate, create derivative works from and publicly display such content throughout the world in any medium. With respect to photographic content that you submit or make available for inclusion, you grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, distribute, reproduce, publicly perform, and to publicly display such content on the Web Site or any of our affiliates web sites or mobile applications.
"Use" includes "destroy". Unfortunately, a chat forum site is not a library, although one of sufficient longevity and popularity such as DPR ad hoc may function as one. Ultimately, however, your only recourse to preserving your or other's content is to download it and store it on your own equipment. DPR has made it relatively painless to reclaim your own content - just click on your account icon and look for "download my data". They'll collect and send you a link to it within a reasonable period of time.
Also unfortunately, businesses aren't run as democratic governments; we the users have no official voice in the operation of the business, and we signed away the possibility of any such privilege when we joined.

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Hello mosswings,

Thank you for all your excellent contributions over the years! I have learned a lot from you and other contributors like you.

My point is not legal but a - more important - moral one. I am sure legally the owners of DPReview.com can do what are planning to do. But that does not change that those plans IMO are utterly disrespectful towards the user/contributors who have helped make this site into what it is.

Click to expand...