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Why all the D2H bashing?
- Thread starter Another birder
- Start date
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
For images to compare, I would suggest you look at the following threads:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6685294
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6673875
These are at much higher ISO's than 800. As to "cleaner" ISO 800, I'd point you the Carol Steele thread. Now that I have pointed you to specifics, are you prepared to show me the equivalent 10d images? Notice that I have not stated the D2H is "better" than anything, I am just asking to see what you are comparing with and how those images were processed.
I will also state again, Nikon did not "release" the images of the hurdlers. A select few very early users were allowed to post images that were not only pre-production, but compressed. As most noted, not nearly large enough, nor pure enough, to make the determinations you are. Why are you so reticient to look at the latest images?
I am sure that you can now show me the equivalent from the Canon 10d and/or the 1d? The threads I have pointed you to also explain the post processing that has been done. At least in the first two, I don't remember off hand all the particulars in Carol's thread. I seem to recall that she had not done post-processing NR on those.
Once again, I am showing you the respect of not deriding your opinion nor calling you names. It is a shame that you find it necessary to stoop to being so petty. It really does not help to support your postion.
I will respond directly to this:
I, also, shoot a lot at higher ISO, not by choice but because of crummy lighting in venues where I cannot use flash. I don't feel that you have "bashed" anything, if you can back up what you are saying. I am not sure why it is so difficult for you to understand that I am trying to gather information. I keep saying, and I mean it, that I am not trying to "defend" either the D2H or my decision. If you can show me what you are claiming it will help me to decide if I have made the correct decision. That is why I ask for similar images. If you have them, and you can show me that the Canon workflow makes a better image easier, then I may want to take a look. On the other hand, I have found that I like the Nikon ergonomics myself. So if quality is about the same, meaning I can reach the same result without a lot of extra work, a switch wouldn't make sense for me. The other thing that I don't this is getting across to you, is that others may find this information of use. If you, indeed, are getting the clean images at high ISO's that you indicate from your 10D, why is it so difficult to show me images in the same type of lighting as those in the two high ISO threads I have pointed out to you.
Snipping all the name calling away to conform to posting size
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6685294
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6673875
These are at much higher ISO's than 800. As to "cleaner" ISO 800, I'd point you the Carol Steele thread. Now that I have pointed you to specifics, are you prepared to show me the equivalent 10d images? Notice that I have not stated the D2H is "better" than anything, I am just asking to see what you are comparing with and how those images were processed.
I will also state again, Nikon did not "release" the images of the hurdlers. A select few very early users were allowed to post images that were not only pre-production, but compressed. As most noted, not nearly large enough, nor pure enough, to make the determinations you are. Why are you so reticient to look at the latest images?
I am sure that you can now show me the equivalent from the Canon 10d and/or the 1d? The threads I have pointed you to also explain the post processing that has been done. At least in the first two, I don't remember off hand all the particulars in Carol's thread. I seem to recall that she had not done post-processing NR on those.
Once again, I am showing you the respect of not deriding your opinion nor calling you names. It is a shame that you find it necessary to stoop to being so petty. It really does not help to support your postion.
I will respond directly to this:
"
I, also, shoot a lot at higher ISO, not by choice but because of crummy lighting in venues where I cannot use flash. I don't feel that you have "bashed" anything, if you can back up what you are saying. I am not sure why it is so difficult for you to understand that I am trying to gather information. I keep saying, and I mean it, that I am not trying to "defend" either the D2H or my decision. If you can show me what you are claiming it will help me to decide if I have made the correct decision. That is why I ask for similar images. If you have them, and you can show me that the Canon workflow makes a better image easier, then I may want to take a look. On the other hand, I have found that I like the Nikon ergonomics myself. So if quality is about the same, meaning I can reach the same result without a lot of extra work, a switch wouldn't make sense for me. The other thing that I don't this is getting across to you, is that others may find this information of use. If you, indeed, are getting the clean images at high ISO's that you indicate from your 10D, why is it so difficult to show me images in the same type of lighting as those in the two high ISO threads I have pointed out to you.
Snipping all the name calling away to conform to posting size
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
I have posted the links to the High ISO D2H current images here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6690503
I have, and will again, state that I haven't seen comparison shots, which is why I keep asking you for the equivalent in the 1d/10d arena so I can compare. As you seem to know Canon, which I don't, I trust your judgement to point me to somewhat equivalent images to compare. It is what I have been asking for from the beginning. The 1d images that I to compare with are, as I have stated, those in Phil's review. And they are certainly no better than what I am seeing with the D2H in the threads I am pointing you to. By the way, I have always stated that these are my opinions. Which, by the way, can change and may when the comparisons are done. You, on the other hand, seem to have made up your mind without the comparison. My mind is still open.
As to the D2H quality:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6667413
This is one thread where a number of pros talk about image quality. As Carol points out, she is seeing equivalent "noise" to the D1X, but the D2H images have also been modified to be the same size as the D1X, not at native resolution. Look at the comments on color as well as detail. Does this match the marketing blurb? Well, I have yet to see the product that matches the marketing blurb put out. However, in my opinion, what I am hearing from these people, such as Carol, who have only had the camera a very short time is very encouraging.
Then there is this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6665595
Sal used his D2H at a wedding over the weekend as well. These are the types of people that I am listening to.
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6690503
I have, and will again, state that I haven't seen comparison shots, which is why I keep asking you for the equivalent in the 1d/10d arena so I can compare. As you seem to know Canon, which I don't, I trust your judgement to point me to somewhat equivalent images to compare. It is what I have been asking for from the beginning. The 1d images that I to compare with are, as I have stated, those in Phil's review. And they are certainly no better than what I am seeing with the D2H in the threads I am pointing you to. By the way, I have always stated that these are my opinions. Which, by the way, can change and may when the comparisons are done. You, on the other hand, seem to have made up your mind without the comparison. My mind is still open.
As to the D2H quality:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6667413
This is one thread where a number of pros talk about image quality. As Carol points out, she is seeing equivalent "noise" to the D1X, but the D2H images have also been modified to be the same size as the D1X, not at native resolution. Look at the comments on color as well as detail. Does this match the marketing blurb? Well, I have yet to see the product that matches the marketing blurb put out. However, in my opinion, what I am hearing from these people, such as Carol, who have only had the camera a very short time is very encouraging.
Then there is this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6665595
Sal used his D2H at a wedding over the weekend as well. These are the types of people that I am listening to.
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
The top one is in nef format, i can't open, the horse image looks rather noisy to me for a shot taken at daylight compared to my 10d shots, doesn't anyone have any shots taken during the evening in available light?
No, I have better things to do than go trudging to look for links and i don't have a pbase account, if you want i could email you a 1600 image.
Notice that I have not stated the D2H is "better" than
Well i didn't say your d2h was worse than anything, ( although i do believe the 10d gives better noise performance, especially at the lower isos ) only that it didn't live up to the press release promise.
Where did the hurdlers image come from then? I seem to remember seeing it with associated Nikon material.
I have looked at the latest images, it looks noisy, I don't understand why you can't see that.
I don't believe in posting post-processed images unless your discussing post-processing, given a cleaner original file.
I don't need to support my position, the Nikon forum is rife with people who feel the d2h didn't live up to it's promise as well.
Well, logistics for one, it takes time to do a search just to find something to convince you especially when I myself don't need convincing. For me the d2h simply fails to live up to it's press release which promised improv ed performances in all areas. Clearly looking at the sample images this is not the case, the d2h may blow away the d1h in your words but compared to other canon cameras the best it can do is tie it. I can probably email you some samples so you can see for yourself.
I really bristled at JP's post. But as long as you're not trying to sell pictures, aren't you the only one who can judge their value? And if someone gets a camera they don't understand shouldn't the knowelegable try to help them to understand how to use it?
Then, if they ignore that help, there are 4 options: Flame them, ban them, humiliate them or ignore them. How much of each response is taken will determine the character of a newbie forum, as this forum certainly is. Come to think of it, unless you fall into stagnation, we're all newbies at something.
Or as some posters might put it, rank tyros.
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/
Then, if they ignore that help, there are 4 options: Flame them, ban them, humiliate them or ignore them. How much of each response is taken will determine the character of a newbie forum, as this forum certainly is. Come to think of it, unless you fall into stagnation, we're all newbies at something.
Or as some posters might put it, rank tyros.
--Here is my version. When DSLR's cost $4,000 and up only those who
were very serious and/or very techie "bought in". During this time
it was accepted that you became "the lab", and that there was a
significant learning curve to master the technology, which has to
come on top of mastering "the art".
As the two majors, Canon and Nikon, have pushed the prices lower,
therefore hitting different market segments, people now expect all
DSLR's to function just as the consumer level cameras. "Good", not
"great", images straight from the camera, lot's of
"Auto-this-Auto-that", that only requires the "photographer" to
press the shutter. This breeds a lack of tolerance for the
"learning curve".
Along with this, we are now seeing many more people who see a brand
as a "status" symbol, quite unlike your comment on these being
tools.
Put this together and you get what you see in the "bashing of the
D2H".
I shoot Nikon rather than Canon. Why? Because the last time I
compared, I preferred the Nikon ergonomics. Camera fits my had
better, menus seem more intuitive. My guess is that every one of
me there is at least one who says the same about Canon. Would I
use either? Of course, these darned things are all great. It is
this last point that bothers me about the "bashers", they don't
seem to understand that there does not have to be "one best".
Thanks for pointing this out, it mimics what I have been observing
for some time now myself.
--The reason is because on this forum, we "professional"From what I have seen and heard, this camera is going to be a sport
shooters wet dream.
--
photographers are out-weighted by the insane soccer mom and dads
who are looking for a toy rather than a tool. They don't plan on
ever getting professional results....and certainly wouldn't want to
buy any brand name lens because they see no difference other than
the price between them.... They come here and ask their beginner
type questions and the replys they get are often from people who
are at the same level as they are... I am a Canon user
myself....yet I really don't care which camera system is better as
long as the maker of the system I own manages to make something
that can help me get the job done and look decent is just fine with
me. However, some people will make a decision based upon the
fraction difference between the sensors... like one camera may be a
6.1 MP....and another will be a 6.3......well, they will base their
decision on the one that has a very slightly larger size because
they feel as though it will serve their needs better....and their
needs are:
Little League Sports.
Snap shots of their pets looking funny...
Their kids B-day parties...
Their sister's wedding....pictures of them coming down the
isle....(taken from the seats)
Self portraits of themselves......often while hand holding the
camera themselves...
Some "landscapes" of the sunset with lots of telephone wires and
polls in the way...
Night time shots of friends where they will need a camera with a
built in flash....
indoor sports where they will use the pop up flash and under-expose
everything other than the guy's head directly in front of the
photographer...
Oh, and they need this equipment to make 4x6 prints so they can
marvel at the quality of their consumer lenses and tell the world
on this forum that they are as good as any "professional"
photographer.
Yep, this is what we deal with on the Canon side......care to join us?
JP
--
Check out my nifty website....
http://www.onemodelplace.com/photographer_list.cfm?P_ID=6108
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6447-6490
The first comparison that I have seen. Be sure to read the whole thing, from what I can tell it seems that things compare rather well. Remember, this is not a complete review or test. I actually found the information about the pre-production units being more sensitive, 800 ISO actualy at 1250, to be quite interesting. Something which could explain a bit with the pre-production images.
As to the horse image, the thread shows it with no post processing, as well as with. And it is also displayed on the web and much larger than normal, which always looks worse. I don't know what you mean about "taken in daylight". Pat clearly states that the light was so low that ISO 1250 was dictated.
I'd be happy to take a look at one of your ISO 1600 images. My email is in my profile. This is the kind of thing that will help me.
You could be right, that the D2H isn't the "quantum leap" over Canon that many have thought it should be. Then again, I wasn't one of those who bought into those thoughts, I never believe all the marketing hype. I have a sizeable investment in Nikon gear, as well as preferring the ergonomics, so for me a "quantum leap" over my current gear is quite good, especially at a lesser price. That notwithstanding, if there is a clearly better tool available, I would be a fool not to look at it.
I'll give you an example. My local pro camera store carries both Canon and Nikon. I asked the sales folks if there were sufficient advantages to looking at the Canon line vs. the D2H. These folks have a vested interest in selling me product. When they say that they are advantages to each and no earth-shattering clear "winner", that says a lot to me.
Again, the "Nikon" hurdle images were posted as small images, not by Nikon, as they were not representative. I don't know why you keep going back to that. Nikon has yet to release any "official" images. Frankly, I wish they would.
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
The first comparison that I have seen. Be sure to read the whole thing, from what I can tell it seems that things compare rather well. Remember, this is not a complete review or test. I actually found the information about the pre-production units being more sensitive, 800 ISO actualy at 1250, to be quite interesting. Something which could explain a bit with the pre-production images.
As to the horse image, the thread shows it with no post processing, as well as with. And it is also displayed on the web and much larger than normal, which always looks worse. I don't know what you mean about "taken in daylight". Pat clearly states that the light was so low that ISO 1250 was dictated.
I'd be happy to take a look at one of your ISO 1600 images. My email is in my profile. This is the kind of thing that will help me.
You could be right, that the D2H isn't the "quantum leap" over Canon that many have thought it should be. Then again, I wasn't one of those who bought into those thoughts, I never believe all the marketing hype. I have a sizeable investment in Nikon gear, as well as preferring the ergonomics, so for me a "quantum leap" over my current gear is quite good, especially at a lesser price. That notwithstanding, if there is a clearly better tool available, I would be a fool not to look at it.
I'll give you an example. My local pro camera store carries both Canon and Nikon. I asked the sales folks if there were sufficient advantages to looking at the Canon line vs. the D2H. These folks have a vested interest in selling me product. When they say that they are advantages to each and no earth-shattering clear "winner", that says a lot to me.
Again, the "Nikon" hurdle images were posted as small images, not by Nikon, as they were not representative. I don't know why you keep going back to that. Nikon has yet to release any "official" images. Frankly, I wish they would.
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
Hello, why don't you do your own homework? Why am I in charge of providing you with answers? If you don't believe me then don't.
As you seem to know Canon, which I don't,
And why should i give you what you ask for? I have nothing to prove, I know I'm right. Besides it's more fun seeing you demand links and threads. I recently just compared 1600 iso shots and there is less grain/noise on the 10d at full 100% sizes, when you downsize the 10d file or upsize the d2h file, the 10d clearly has smaller noise prints. And when you go to lower isos such as 100,200 or 400 the 10d has even lower noise. I guess maybe i can email you a 1600 iso shot so you can see for yourself, I'll downsize to equal the size of the d2h files if you want.
Good lord are you dense? That's the problem! It's supposed to be better, it's not, I repeat, it's not, Hellooo is anyone home? Read the press release i posted and tell me if you think Nikon has acheived superior image quality against it's competitors.
By the
maybe if you have seen the things i've seen, you'd see things my way. And if I only compared the d2h to other Nikon cameras i would think it's a home run.
Well good for you and carol hehe, enjoy your camera then, such as it is.
I don't feel based on the samples you've shown me and the arguments that the d2h delivers anything more than an incremental upgrade to Nikon cameras and at best has acheived parity with a two year old canon camera and an 8 month old can prosumer camera. Sorry
It hardly lives up to it's press release which was the whole point of my initial post. toodles : p
Image Quality That Surpasses Every Camera In Its Class
Debatable with the 1d and 10d, heck the 10d isn't even in it's class, maybe they were thinking of the d2h or the Olympus e1?
The D2H achieves
There it is, in it's class, now all you have to do is define this class, when i see class I think any prosumer dslr to pro slr camera, the d2h clearly isn't tops here. The 10d gives better image quality, the 1d as well I believe in terms of sharpness.
by aggressively addressing
What is your definition of this class? If it's the d1h then fine it has succeeded, if it includes the 1d then at best it has acheived parity.
Thank you! That was my whole initial point, when I read the press release i thought Nikon had a 1d killer but it turns out this is debatable in terms of image quality, if you look at my original post this is the only thing that I pointed out. I never bashed the d2h, i just said it didn't quite live up to the press release, that's why people were dissapointed with it. Too many high expectations.
Then again, I wasn't
I was recently asked this question myself, i replied it depends on what you want to shoot and how you shoot. The two systems have more alike than dissimilar anyway.
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
First off, no demands, I have asked for information. I have supplied you with what I am looking at when you have asked. Given your reticence to reply in kind really puzzles me. I actually thought, per your reply here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6690921 that we were finally getting to something reasonable. Seeing this post I have my doubts. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as this was posted a few minutes before the one I refer to above. I would also like to state for the record, once again, that I am not asking you to "do my homework", I just believe that someone with more Canon background then I have would better be able to point me to representative samples. You seem to take that as some sort of demand or challenge, I don't know. Also, as soon as I found a comparison I posted it for you, the link to the Galbraith site.
Thank you, have a nice day....
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=6690921 that we were finally getting to something reasonable. Seeing this post I have my doubts. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as this was posted a few minutes before the one I refer to above. I would also like to state for the record, once again, that I am not asking you to "do my homework", I just believe that someone with more Canon background then I have would better be able to point me to representative samples. You seem to take that as some sort of demand or challenge, I don't know. Also, as soon as I found a comparison I posted it for you, the link to the Galbraith site.
Thank you, have a nice day....
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
Hello,
I read your post and I need to say few things.
First, I am amatuer, student but very into photography. I started to take pictures with "flexaret" (if you know what it is ) and "Praktica" (I am from slovakia (former czechoslovakia). But I realized that its getting too pricy for me, so I bought D100.
From that point many pros in my town ( except few of them) started looking at me as you do. Like: Why an amatuer wnats to have d100+17-35/2.8+etc.?! It looks sometimes that I should be ashamed that I can afford 4000$ cam,lenses... . And yes, I do have semi pro cam and dont take pro pictures, but is it really problem for someone.?? I want to improve and I think taht if I paid so much money for the cam and lens I bought it has to have its quality for that price. So this two reasons keep me looking on this forum.
D100 in my country wasnt cheap to buy, but if I already bought it I really think it should work, and if someone even amatuer now buys D2H and he founds uot its not that marvel, he is just surpised that for that money he didnt gat so much "music".
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=14141
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=28117
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=26648
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=52786
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=26320
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=50031
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13797
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=15079
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13797
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13828
my best regards
martin
PS: I think 1 yr ago more people were sending pics rather then just techno-talking, so I start again. Please if you have any comments I appriciate them.
I read your post and I need to say few things.
First, I am amatuer, student but very into photography. I started to take pictures with "flexaret" (if you know what it is ) and "Praktica" (I am from slovakia (former czechoslovakia). But I realized that its getting too pricy for me, so I bought D100.
From that point many pros in my town ( except few of them) started looking at me as you do. Like: Why an amatuer wnats to have d100+17-35/2.8+etc.?! It looks sometimes that I should be ashamed that I can afford 4000$ cam,lenses... . And yes, I do have semi pro cam and dont take pro pictures, but is it really problem for someone.?? I want to improve and I think taht if I paid so much money for the cam and lens I bought it has to have its quality for that price. So this two reasons keep me looking on this forum.
D100 in my country wasnt cheap to buy, but if I already bought it I really think it should work, and if someone even amatuer now buys D2H and he founds uot its not that marvel, he is just surpised that for that money he didnt gat so much "music".
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=14141
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=28117
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=26648
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=52786
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=26320
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=50031
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13797
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=15079
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13797
http://www.photopost.cz/galeriefoto.php?id=13828
my best regards
martin
PS: I think 1 yr ago more people were sending pics rather then just techno-talking, so I start again. Please if you have any comments I appriciate them.
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
Good luck with the camera, and your studies. I like the images you have posted. Very intersting treatments.
As to the point of this thread the problem occurs, in my opinion, when people buy a camera like the D2H but have not done the research to understand that this is not a consumer point and shoot. These people expect the camera to "do" things for them, which it won't. And then they complain, rather than learning.
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
As to the point of this thread the problem occurs, in my opinion, when people buy a camera like the D2H but have not done the research to understand that this is not a consumer point and shoot. These people expect the camera to "do" things for them, which it won't. And then they complain, rather than learning.
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
Marco Miltenburg
Well-known member
To set the record straight, I'm a pro sports shooter. I'm just not influenced by a love for a certain brand and just look for the best.
But make your own judgement by reading the comparison that Rob Galbraith has put on his website:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6447-6490
It hasn't really changed my opinion in that the Nikon D2h can maybe match the Canon 1D but it can certainly not beat it. The comparison of Rob has even aggravated my view on the Nikon D2h.
Grtz,
Marco
sorry I posted this before I saw your earlier post pointing me to rob golbraith's forum, I was still in anger and argue mode.
AdWiser88638
Senior Member
...Or even the D2x. This new LBCAST sensor is really the next step.
I put 200$ in the piggy bank each month (less than many drink and smoke) and next fall I'll have my new camera. The trusty old D100 will promote as a backup camera.
I wasn't convinced until I saw how much pleasure will cause this to some.
Hey marke-trolls! You've just losed another client!
--
------------------------
regards,
AdWiser
I put 200$ in the piggy bank each month (less than many drink and smoke) and next fall I'll have my new camera. The trusty old D100 will promote as a backup camera.
I wasn't convinced until I saw how much pleasure will cause this to some.
Hey marke-trolls! You've just losed another client!
--
------------------------
regards,
AdWiser
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
This post is a show of integrity, which I very much appreciate. Thanks.
I think, sometimes, that we get caught up in the "emotions" of a debate and have "selective reading" of posts. Every now and then I even fall pry to that
.
Saw your post re: the Galbraith report.
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
I think, sometimes, that we get caught up in the "emotions" of a debate and have "selective reading" of posts. Every now and then I even fall pry to that
.Saw your post re: the Galbraith report.
--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
Although some of my own postings in this thread have displayed neither, I completely agree with your statement that they have a place in, not only this world, but in this forum as well. In fact, these qualities are what have made this place a decent arena for learning and growing as artists and photographers as well as teachers of those skills.
One particularly unrespectful posting placed the blame for brand bashing on the shoulders of snapshooters, proud parents, pet owners, brides' siblings and repeated questions from beginners. Being a snapshooter myself, I felt that attack was misplaced and personal. My attempt to mirror an argument toward that poster's own work degenerated into a most uncivil discourse.
If we split into multiple fora, as the Canon forum has, to avoid repeating the same answers ad nauseum, we will lose that opportunity, not only for beginners to learn, but for experts to grow as teachers.
Your phrase, 'civility and respect' reminded me that these two qualities are lubrication that allows people of different tastes and artistic sensabilities to work together. My textless posting in response to your statement was the fulcrum of my own attitude in this thread.
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/
One particularly unrespectful posting placed the blame for brand bashing on the shoulders of snapshooters, proud parents, pet owners, brides' siblings and repeated questions from beginners. Being a snapshooter myself, I felt that attack was misplaced and personal. My attempt to mirror an argument toward that poster's own work degenerated into a most uncivil discourse.
If we split into multiple fora, as the Canon forum has, to avoid repeating the same answers ad nauseum, we will lose that opportunity, not only for beginners to learn, but for experts to grow as teachers.
Your phrase, 'civility and respect' reminded me that these two qualities are lubrication that allows people of different tastes and artistic sensabilities to work together. My textless posting in response to your statement was the fulcrum of my own attitude in this thread.
--
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/
Bill Dewey
Veteran Member
Thanks, Chris, just wanted to be sure your arrows were pointed where I thought they were .
All of us, even me believe it or not, don't follow this all the time. I try, but evey now then the Alligator in me overtakes the brain.
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
.All of us, even me believe it or not, don't follow this all the time. I try, but evey now then the Alligator in me overtakes the brain
.--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com
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