P1000: Kingfishers episode 57: Little Wooden Bridge III

I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
I probably didn't write clearly - I meant separate DeNoising software like PureRaw 2 or Topaz DeNoise, etc. I found TDN to be far superior to the NR you get inside processing software - to my knowledge all or almost all software from Lightroom to NXStudio to FastStone, etc., all provide a Noise Reduction tool - whether they stand up to someone's standards for noise reduction would be on an individual thing.
When I prepared for BPOTY 2023 last December, I tried Lightroom CC (7-day trial) and DarkTable (said to be the free software alternative to Lightroom; still installed on my computer) to see if they can recover blown highlights better than NX Studio while still maintaining a good overall look. I didn't try the noise reduction features in these programs as NR has not been my concern.
You might not want to spend the money - I understand, it took me awhile.

Its neither here nor there, nor important you are satisfied with the noise in your images - which is fine. I'm sure no expert - and am not getting the most out of TDN because I'm a beginner -

Ev
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
Bottom left was my favorite as well here, although in general I end up preferring the focus or movement processing.

--

Sherm
Sherms flickr page

P950 album

P900 album RX10iv album
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
Those are excellent as goals, however for most birds, the shutter speed must be far faster than what you use, and the ISO required for a bright image considerably higher. That's where a program such as DXO PL5/6 really makes a difference as the first-step processor, because it will much better at removing noise without blurring details than pretty much any of its competitors.

If not clear - these are from the raw file you made available, not one of my images.

--

Sherm
Sherms flickr page

P950 album

P900 album RX10iv album
 
Last edited:
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.

40b53de90d9c43c1b3e6784947bdd3cd.jpg

c28be634a6934b12af26d201f28e0c82.jpg

2f81fda26d254720b24c3eafbf3f8b4e.jpg

4e2ce1bef1e1438eb1ceff6a19050a88.jpg

278746e09763420b88e3333d6d071224.jpg

4a4bd0b3da794c81a831f53aa675085c.jpg
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
OTM, why don't you share with us your gulls in flight. For the P900 my superzoom teacher - he used to post on DPreview - he shares his P900 BIF if interested.

I remember now that is where I learned about not shooting at full zoom -

don’t try to shoot at the long end of the zoom, especially as you are developing your technique. Finding focus and keeping the bird in frame are both easier at 600-1000mm equivalent fields of view, than they are at 1200-2000mm.

https://psnp.info/psnp_/?p=881

Looking forward to those gulls.

Ev
Ev,

I'm not sure I agree about the P950 autofocus being better at 600-1000 than at 2000mm. As for keeping the bird in frame, lower zoom of course makes framing easier, but the bird image will cover fewer pixels at lower zoom, so it's not without cost. The red dot sight simplifies initial framing.
OTM, I'm offering a suggestion for the P900 for BIF - maybe, maybe not useful when you shoot the gulls in flight. You can shoot the gulls both ways and see what works best for you using the P900. FWIW, the author is very knowledgeable has written a book on nature photography with superzoom cameras.

I'm anxious to see your gulls.

Have you used the red dot? Do you recommend it? Red Dot was something else for me to learn and I didn't know what the learning curve would be. So I skipped it, along with putting some good practice into shooting BIF.

Ev





--
 
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.

40b53de90d9c43c1b3e6784947bdd3cd.jpg

c28be634a6934b12af26d201f28e0c82.jpg

2f81fda26d254720b24c3eafbf3f8b4e.jpg

4e2ce1bef1e1438eb1ceff6a19050a88.jpg

278746e09763420b88e3333d6d071224.jpg

4a4bd0b3da794c81a831f53aa675085c.jpg
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
OTM, why don't you share with us your gulls in flight. For the P900 my superzoom teacher - he used to post on DPreview - he shares his P900 BIF if interested.

I remember now that is where I learned about not shooting at full zoom -

don’t try to shoot at the long end of the zoom, especially as you are developing your technique. Finding focus and keeping the bird in frame are both easier at 600-1000mm equivalent fields of view, than they are at 1200-2000mm.

https://psnp.info/psnp_/?p=881

Looking forward to those gulls.

Ev
Ev,

I'm not sure I agree about the P950 autofocus being better at 600-1000 than at 2000mm. As for keeping the bird in frame, lower zoom of course makes framing easier, but the bird image will cover fewer pixels at lower zoom, so it's not without cost. The red dot sight simplifies initial framing.
OTM, I'm offering a suggestion for the P900 for BIF - maybe, maybe not useful when you shoot the gulls in flight. You can shoot the gulls both ways and see what works best for you using the P900. FWIW, the author is very knowledgeable has written a book on nature photography with superzoom cameras.

I'm anxious to see your gulls.

Have you used the red dot? Do you recommend it? Red Dot was something else for me to learn and I didn't know what the learning curve would be. So I skipped it, along with putting some good practice into shooting BIF.

Ev
Oh that was Sherm! I'm waiting for the gulls to return, it is winter time right now and we just had a snowstorm! Hopefully they'll be back in March. I didn't know people would be interested in gulls, as when they come there are so many of them. They fly very slowly and sometimes get very close. I can't see a situation where 2000mm would be needed, as most of them are HUGE The Great Black Backed Gull is 32 inches and even our smallest gulls are 21 inches so at least the size of crows.



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
I probably didn't write clearly - I meant separate DeNoising software like PureRaw 2 or Topaz DeNoise, etc. I found TDN to be far superior to the NR you get inside processing software - to my knowledge all or almost all software from Lightroom to NXStudio to FastStone, etc., all provide a Noise Reduction tool - whether they stand up to someone's standards for noise reduction would be on an individual thing.

You might not want to spend the money - I understand, it took me awhile.

Its neither here nor there, nor important you are satisfied with the noise in your images - which is fine. I'm sure no expert - and am not getting the most out of TDN because I'm a beginner -

Ev
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
From what I understand third party software is better because NX Studio just mimics in camera settings?



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
But is this what the bird actually looks like? I have 20/80 vision in my right eye and 20/35 vision in my left eye and I must admit I have never seen this kind of detail in "real" life. Birds always look like solid colors to me, not these hair like structures.



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
Those are excellent as goals, however for most birds, the shutter speed must be far faster than what you use, and the ISO required for a bright image considerably higher. That's where a program such as DXO PL5/6 really makes a difference as the first-step processor, because it will much better at removing noise without blurring details than pretty much any of its competitors.

If not clear - these are from the raw file you made available, not one of my images.
why not use a low ISO and raise brightness in post processing though?



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.

40b53de90d9c43c1b3e6784947bdd3cd.jpg

c28be634a6934b12af26d201f28e0c82.jpg

2f81fda26d254720b24c3eafbf3f8b4e.jpg

4e2ce1bef1e1438eb1ceff6a19050a88.jpg

278746e09763420b88e3333d6d071224.jpg

4a4bd0b3da794c81a831f53aa675085c.jpg
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
Now that I’d like to see . You will be surprised how hard it is with these P series cameras even at lower focal lengths .
I shall try!

and also try with my M43 equipment!



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.

40b53de90d9c43c1b3e6784947bdd3cd.jpg

c28be634a6934b12af26d201f28e0c82.jpg

2f81fda26d254720b24c3eafbf3f8b4e.jpg

4e2ce1bef1e1438eb1ceff6a19050a88.jpg

278746e09763420b88e3333d6d071224.jpg

4a4bd0b3da794c81a831f53aa675085c.jpg
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
OTM, why don't you share with us your gulls in flight. For the P900 my superzoom teacher - he used to post on DPreview - he shares his P900 BIF if interested.

I remember now that is where I learned about not shooting at full zoom -

don’t try to shoot at the long end of the zoom, especially as you are developing your technique. Finding focus and keeping the bird in frame are both easier at 600-1000mm equivalent fields of view, than they are at 1200-2000mm.

https://psnp.info/psnp_/?p=881

Looking forward to those gulls.

Ev
Ev,

I'm not sure I agree about the P950 autofocus being better at 600-1000 than at 2000mm. As for keeping the bird in frame, lower zoom of course makes framing easier, but the bird image will cover fewer pixels at lower zoom, so it's not without cost. The red dot sight simplifies initial framing.
OTM, I'm offering a suggestion for the P900 for BIF - maybe, maybe not useful when you shoot the gulls in flight. You can shoot the gulls both ways and see what works best for you using the P900. FWIW, the author is very knowledgeable has written a book on nature photography with superzoom cameras.

I'm anxious to see your gulls.

Have you used the red dot? Do you recommend it? Red Dot was something else for me to learn and I didn't know what the learning curve would be. So I skipped it, along with putting some good practice into shooting BIF.

Ev
Oh that was Sherm! I'm waiting for the gulls to return, it is winter time right now and we just had a snowstorm! Hopefully they'll be back in March. I didn't know people would be interested in gulls, as when they come there are so many of them. They fly very slowly and sometimes get very close. I can't see a situation where 2000mm would be needed, as most of them are HUGE The Great Black Backed Gull is 32 inches and even our smallest gulls are 21 inches so at least the size of crows.
It’s not about the zoom but mastering the poor af . It’s a great skill to master . These big zooms are really sharp around the 500/600 mark and if you can master the contrast af then you will be rewarded with first class bif

--
It’s all about the zoom
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
Those are excellent as goals, however for most birds, the shutter speed must be far faster than what you use, and the ISO required for a bright image considerably higher. That's where a program such as DXO PL5/6 really makes a difference as the first-step processor, because it will much better at removing noise without blurring details than pretty much any of its competitors.

If not clear - these are from the raw file you made available, not one of my images.
Now I'm fully convinced of the necessity of the programs you recommended for a professional photographer. If I'm going professional and doing business on my images I will definitely consider them.
 
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.

40b53de90d9c43c1b3e6784947bdd3cd.jpg

c28be634a6934b12af26d201f28e0c82.jpg

2f81fda26d254720b24c3eafbf3f8b4e.jpg

4e2ce1bef1e1438eb1ceff6a19050a88.jpg

278746e09763420b88e3333d6d071224.jpg

4a4bd0b3da794c81a831f53aa675085c.jpg
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
OTM, why don't you share with us your gulls in flight. For the P900 my superzoom teacher - he used to post on DPreview - he shares his P900 BIF if interested.

I remember now that is where I learned about not shooting at full zoom -

don’t try to shoot at the long end of the zoom, especially as you are developing your technique. Finding focus and keeping the bird in frame are both easier at 600-1000mm equivalent fields of view, than they are at 1200-2000mm.

https://psnp.info/psnp_/?p=881

Looking forward to those gulls.

Ev
Ev,

I'm not sure I agree about the P950 autofocus being better at 600-1000 than at 2000mm. As for keeping the bird in frame, lower zoom of course makes framing easier, but the bird image will cover fewer pixels at lower zoom, so it's not without cost. The red dot sight simplifies initial framing.
OTM, I'm offering a suggestion for the P900 for BIF - maybe, maybe not useful when you shoot the gulls in flight. You can shoot the gulls both ways and see what works best for you using the P900. FWIW, the author is very knowledgeable has written a book on nature photography with superzoom cameras.

I'm anxious to see your gulls.

Have you used the red dot? Do you recommend it? Red Dot was something else for me to learn and I didn't know what the learning curve would be. So I skipped it, along with putting some good practice into shooting BIF.

Ev
Oh that was Sherm! I'm waiting for the gulls to return, it is winter time right now and we just had a snowstorm! Hopefully they'll be back in March. I didn't know people would be interested in gulls, as when they come there are so many of them. They fly very slowly and sometimes get very close. I can't see a situation where 2000mm would be needed, as most of them are HUGE The Great Black Backed Gull is 32 inches and even our smallest gulls are 21 inches so at least the size of crows.
It’s not about the zoom but mastering the poor af . It’s a great skill to master . These big zooms are really sharp around the 500/600 mark and if you can master the contrast af then you will be rewarded with first class bif
Nice that's where I plan to try it however-- if I am going to use 600mm shouldn't I just go with the M43 set up at 600mm? I am going to use AF-lock on both with S-AF I dont like continuous AF or target finding AF or any of that nonsense, I want to focus on the area in which the bird is flying lock focus and then take the picture. I don't think I've ever used continuous or target finding AF, I like focus to always be on one spot and then wait for the bird to fly through that spot.

A question about focal length, keep the f ratio wide open correct? In that case would 700mm f/5 be better than 500-600 since 700mm is the highest focal length for which f/5 can be used? Or even 1100mm f/5.6 since 1100mm is the highest focal length for which f/5.6 can be used or should I just stick with 600mm? On M43 I have 600mm f/6.7 at the widest and usually results are better (sharper) at 500mm f/6.5



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
Last edited:
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
But is this what the bird actually looks like? I have 20/80 vision in my right eye and 20/35 vision in my left eye and I must admit I have never seen this kind of detail in "real" life. Birds always look like solid colors to me, not these hair like structures.
Let's see some of my sharpest (using the P1000's default "Sharpening = 3" setting encoded into the RAW files, not any additional sharpening programs):



1/15s
1/15s



1/400s
1/400s
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
I probably didn't write clearly - I meant separate DeNoising software like PureRaw 2 or Topaz DeNoise, etc. I found TDN to be far superior to the NR you get inside processing software - to my knowledge all or almost all software from Lightroom to NXStudio to FastStone, etc., all provide a Noise Reduction tool - whether they stand up to someone's standards for noise reduction would be on an individual thing.

You might not want to spend the money - I understand, it took me awhile.

Its neither here nor there, nor important you are satisfied with the noise in your images - which is fine. I'm sure no expert - and am not getting the most out of TDN because I'm a beginner -

Ev
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
From what I understand third party software is better because NX Studio just mimics in camera settings?
NX Studio extends some in-camera settings (e.g. it has a wider range of Active D-Lighting options and Noise Reduction options) and provides many settings not offered by the camera.

Can't say whichever of NX Studio or third-party software is better because they each have unique advantages. For example, NX Studio has a proprietary feature "Active D-Lighting" that people simply can't simulate using third-party tools (some people say it's just "tone mapping" plus "local contrast" but it proved to be more).
 
I posted some examples of P950 at full zoom in Feb 2020, using the software then available to me (Capture NX followed by Neat Image 8). Additional details are in the thread, including the recommendation for red dot sight and target-finding autofocus.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4467894

About a year later, DXO had added support for P950 and I had purchased Topaz Sharpen. The results from the 05/2021 reprocessing (not previously posted) are shown below. Images are cropped, but at full resolution.

The improvement obtained by using DXO followed by Topaz should be immediately obvious, even at ISO 100. At higher ISOs, the discrepancy is even larger.
Those are really nice but must be far away here on Long Island they are right outside my bedroom window I'm sure I could shoot them BIF with my P900 but wouldn't use more than 600mm because they are so big,
OTM, why don't you share with us your gulls in flight. For the P900 my superzoom teacher - he used to post on DPreview - he shares his P900 BIF if interested.

I remember now that is where I learned about not shooting at full zoom -

don’t try to shoot at the long end of the zoom, especially as you are developing your technique. Finding focus and keeping the bird in frame are both easier at 600-1000mm equivalent fields of view, than they are at 1200-2000mm.

https://psnp.info/psnp_/?p=881

Looking forward to those gulls.

Ev
Ev,

I'm not sure I agree about the P950 autofocus being better at 600-1000 than at 2000mm. As for keeping the bird in frame, lower zoom of course makes framing easier, but the bird image will cover fewer pixels at lower zoom, so it's not without cost. The red dot sight simplifies initial framing.
OTM, I'm offering a suggestion for the P900 for BIF - maybe, maybe not useful when you shoot the gulls in flight. You can shoot the gulls both ways and see what works best for you using the P900. FWIW, the author is very knowledgeable has written a book on nature photography with superzoom cameras.

I'm anxious to see your gulls.

Have you used the red dot? Do you recommend it? Red Dot was something else for me to learn and I didn't know what the learning curve would be. So I skipped it, along with putting some good practice into shooting BIF.

Ev
Oh that was Sherm! I'm waiting for the gulls to return, it is winter time right now and we just had a snowstorm! Hopefully they'll be back in March. I didn't know people would be interested in gulls, as when they come there are so many of them. They fly very slowly and sometimes get very close. I can't see a situation where 2000mm would be needed, as most of them are HUGE The Great Black Backed Gull is 32 inches and even our smallest gulls are 21 inches so at least the size of crows.
Keep in mind that the original question was whether I could achieve framing and autofocus adequate for shooting BIF at 2000mm. The gulls were simply the most convenient test subject.

Framing is possible (albeit difficult) with the assistance of a red dot sight.

Autofocus was quite reliably obtained (certainly better than I had anticipated) using target-finding autofocus

--

Sherm
Sherms flickr page

P950 album

P900 album RX10iv album
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
Those are excellent as goals, however for most birds, the shutter speed must be far faster than what you use, and the ISO required for a bright image considerably higher. That's where a program such as DXO PL5/6 really makes a difference as the first-step processor, because it will much better at removing noise without blurring details than pretty much any of its competitors.

If not clear - these are from the raw file you made available, not one of my images.
why not use a low ISO and raise brightness in post processing though?
The faster shutter speed reduces the signal reaching the sensor (exposure). Increasing the image brightness by increasing the camera ISO setting or by brightening during postprocessing will increase noise proportionally... so you end up with a noisier image either way.

--

Sherm
Sherms flickr page

P950 album

P900 album RX10iv album
 
Last edited:
Check out a few YouTube videos

 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
I probably didn't write clearly - I meant separate DeNoising software like PureRaw 2 or Topaz DeNoise, etc. I found TDN to be far superior to the NR you get inside processing software - to my knowledge all or almost all software from Lightroom to NXStudio to FastStone, etc., all provide a Noise Reduction tool - whether they stand up to someone's standards for noise reduction would be on an individual thing.

You might not want to spend the money - I understand, it took me awhile.

Its neither here nor there, nor important you are satisfied with the noise in your images - which is fine. I'm sure no expert - and am not getting the most out of TDN because I'm a beginner -

Ev
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
From what I understand third party software is better because NX Studio just mimics in camera settings?
NX Studio extends some in-camera settings (e.g. it has a wider range of Active D-Lighting options and Noise Reduction options) and provides many settings not offered by the camera.

Can't say whichever of NX Studio or third-party software is better because they each have unique advantages. For example, NX Studio has a proprietary feature "Active D-Lighting" that people simply can't simulate using third-party tools (some people say it's just "tone mapping" plus "local contrast" but it proved to be more).
Thanks, does NX Studio have a level of noise reduction less than the Low setting in the camera? Do you use it or is it still too much?



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 
I think they are very nice images, excellent color, and detail. I don't really see any difference between the focus of the tail and the head - may just be my skill in assessing images - both look quite sharp to me.
The first shot has a blurry tail and lower back. Initially I thought it was because I focused near the bird head instead of at the body center, but now I'm more inclined to WPMChan's opinion that the bird tail has motion blur.

The second shot has both a sharp head and tail, but the head is not as sharp as that in the first shot. I'm almost sure this is a motion blur problem. The head is not as sharp as some of my finest shots.
What I did notice in both was noise - looking at the images at 100%. At more normal sizes its not noticeable. I've found using DeNoise sometimes something I think it is a little soft or out of focus will become sharper using the DeNooise.
About noise: The second shot happened to use -1.0EV while the first was -0.3EV because I used a [-1.0, -1.7, -0.3] exposure bracket to prevent white neck overexposure. So, the second shot has more noise than the first if we use Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten them up to the same brightness level.

It's also important to note that if you use Shadow Protection instead of Active D-Lighting to brighten up dark parts, Shadow Protection will result in less noise. This is because Active D-Lighting adds or keeps more contrast, and more contrast leads to more noise.

Highlight Protection and Shadow Protection may be used to prevent the white neck from overexposure and to recover more detail on the white neck. Professional photographers would tell you a photo should never has a plain white portion (with the exception of the sun).
I'd be happy to put one or both of them through Topaz DeNoise if you'd like?
Here is the Google Drive link for the RAW for you RAW and post-processing junkies :-)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14v3k6FfOHrQ8djyzyoyMTUVqu4b08Iw8?usp=share_link
Again, very nice images - sometimes at least for me better not to nit-pik the images.

Ev
I don't know about you, but as far as I can tell when you repost images here there is always some degree of compression - the image on your PC will look a little different when posted here. Or it can look a bit different.

The file on goggle drive is not the RAW file - it was a JPG.

I reduced the noise first - I think there is a clear difference. One of the best things I've done is invest in noise reduction software - user friendly. I'm a beginner only had it a couple of months.

e3d6fd6675b7487186fa2d7e6556d8fd.jpg

Editing - the only thing I did to it was fix the small amount of blown out white on the neck. The white on the chin was not blown out.

My processing methods/steps is to hopefully do as little as possible - this one as noted before looked fine, except for the noise. I didn't see the blown out white with my eye - the software ID'd it and I could turn the highlights down on just that small patch of white on the neck. My software is Luminar Neo - not as sophisticated and high end as some such as DXO, Photoshop, etc. But then again I'm not convinced I'm getting the best out of Neo yet.

8bddaef8f2274c73a23ea05b5aa390a6.jpg

Ev
Third-party software may do noise reduction more intelligently than Nikon's native NX Studio, but you also lose an important feature with them - Active D-Lighting. It's such a magical touch, like wasabi, that adds vividness, brightness, contrast and a sense of 3D to an subject. Many people tried to reproduce the effects of ADL with other software but failed.
NX Studio is nice software for NIkon users, no doubt about it. I liked it because it was user friendly and had some nice tools. Its the nature of all software - there is no perfect one for everyone. You loose some tools or features, and you can gain some tools or features.

Topaz DeNoise is not end all software - it does what it advertises very well, is user friendly, and reasonable enough in cost. I'm curious did you use the native NX-Studio Noise reduction tool on these Kingfishers? Noise doesn't bother many people and are happy to ignore it. I really didn't get what a problem noise was for my photos until I started looking closely at them (expanding to 100%) and was shocked. I didn't like it at all.
Some noise reduction options simply smear feather detail more or less, which is not acceptable for me. Also, when there is noise in feathers, it gives me a sense of "detail" which makes me feel good; in other words, I can't distinguish detail from noise in feathers, so I'd like to keep them both...

I remember I tried all those noise reduction options in NX Studio but ultimately decided that no NR is the best option for me.

The amount of noise can vary depending on your shooting conditions and also on your post-processing. One example is that a higher amount of Active D-Lighting in NX Studio to brighten dark parts of a high-contrast photo (such as a kingfisher facing direct sunlight and having a dark back) can introduce more noise in shadows and blow out highlights (e.g. white hair on the neck shone upon by direct sunlight). In such a case, using more Shadow Protection and less or no Active D-Lighting can reduce both noise and overexposure.
You're all set BC - I'll just add don't forget the noise in the background - its not just feather noise. Absolutely agree from my limited experience the amount of noise can vary depending on shooting conditions and processing. All that matters is what you are happy with.

I'd be curious to know what Noise Reduction software you tried that caused some smearing? I wouldn't like that either.
I tried all the NR options in NX Studio and they all introduced some smearing. So I always uncheck Noise Reduction in NX Studio for all shots.
It would be an interesting exercise, if you really want critiques and suggestions some of those members on the Retouching forum really know their stuff on post-processing.

Ev
FWIW, here's what I get from the raw file out of DXO PL6 (top left) and after processing the DXO output in Topaz Sharpen using three different processing algorithms. All at 100%.

ab591505a502453ebaab09c79060547c.jpg.png
Hey man, these sharpening algorithms are Martian magic, or CIA tech used to recover detail in recon satellite imagery... I particularly like the lower left result. Really sharp kingfisher hairs should look like pine needles, as featured in some of my finest shots you guys all have seen before.
While it's a good thing to know what a magic a program can do to reduce noise in and/or sharpen an image, I think the most ideal approach is to take a shot that's born noiseless (P Mode, ISO 100, -0.3EV) and sharp (absolutely no motion blur), as some of my finest shots demonstrated.
Those are excellent as goals, however for most birds, the shutter speed must be far faster than what you use, and the ISO required for a bright image considerably higher. That's where a program such as DXO PL5/6 really makes a difference as the first-step processor, because it will much better at removing noise without blurring details than pretty much any of its competitors.

If not clear - these are from the raw file you made available, not one of my images.
why not use a low ISO and raise brightness in post processing though?
The faster shutter speed reduces the signal reaching the sensor (exposure). Increasing the image brightness by increasing the camera ISO setting or by brightening during postprocessing will increase noise proportionally... so you end up with a noisier image either way.
Thanks, it sounds like ISO less doesn't work here



--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top