Mirrorless cannot pre-calculate final image with bounce flash?

peterharvey

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One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
I shoot a lot of bounce flash using TTL but I don’t rely/Use the brightness of any EVF or the screen I use the histogram I don't pay any attention to the cameras meter. I will set the ISO to 100, 400 up to 1600 as needed. If I need to adjust flash output I adjust FEC. I don't use auto anything when using flash. Just so you know there are times that the cameras meter reads 1 even 2 stops over exposed but the shot almost always is OK.
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
I shoot a lot of bounce flash using TTL but I don’t rely/Use the brightness of any EVF or the screen I use the histogram I don't pay any attention to the cameras meter.
How does the "histogram" know how powerful the flash would be ???

And the "camera-meter" directly corresponds to the (peak) of histogram ...
I will set the ISO to 100, 400 up to 1600 as needed. If I need to adjust flash output I adjust FEC. I don't use auto anything when using flash. Just so you know there are times that the cameras meter reads 1 even 2 stops over exposed but the shot almost always is OK.
You are basically exposing for AMBIENT light (via histogram and/or camera-meter), and then adjusting flash for "fill".

There is nothing really wrong with that, but you are not truly using "flash" for your main exposure.
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
I shoot a lot of bounce flash using TTL but I don’t rely/Use the brightness of any EVF or the screen I use the histogram I don't pay any attention to the cameras meter.
How does the "histogram" know how powerful the flash would be ???

And the "camera-meter" directly corresponds to the (peak) of histogram ...
I will set the ISO to 100, 400 up to 1600 as needed. If I need to adjust flash output I adjust FEC. I don't use auto anything when using flash. Just so you know there are times that the cameras meter reads 1 even 2 stops over exposed but the shot almost always is OK.
You are basically exposing for AMBIENT light (via histogram and/or camera-meter), and then adjusting flash for "fill".

There is nothing really wrong with that, but you are not truly using "flash" for your main exposure.
i am assuming he shoots then chimps and then adjusts if necessary
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
Indeed mirrorless does not have a huge advantage compared to a DSLR for flash. I don't understand why you think they are aging. They are the best currently available camera for many shooting conditions.

--
Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony
 
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The camera can't precalculate & show the brightness in the EVF, but in TTL mode it does precalculate to determine the strength of flash required.

I never use the brightness of the EVF to judge exposure, your eyes adjust based on the incoming brightness so what looks right on a dark occasion will be much darker than what looks right when it's bright around you.
 
Even if the EVF could calculate how bright the scene would be with flash, it can't anticipate how the light will fall on your subject. That is the general disadvantage of using flash: you can't see the results in advance, but that is the same on DSLR and mirrorless.

The advantage of EVFs is the sensor based AF, which is impossible to implement in an OVF.

In general, when shooting flash with an EVF, it is better to turn off exposure simulation.

IMHO, when doing run-and-gun shooting (like events), it's far better to rely on TTL and auto exposure (with FEC) than on manual settings. In a studio, where you shoot the same scene with the lights in a fixed distance from the subject, full manual is the way to go.
 
You will have to take photos and adjust as needed, or just trust that TTL will work. Mirrorless technology has not improved flash photography, but if you’re after great results, it’s not about the exposure.

TTL will be close enough for you to fix in post. But what you’re really after is to look at how well the lighting falls on your subject, whether you have hot spots or red eye, that sort of thing, and metering won’t tell you that.
 


The advantage of EVFs is the sensor based AF, which is impossible to implement in an OVF.

Sensor based Auto Focus has both a advantages and disadvantages.

The advantage is that you don’t need to worry about the image sensor and a auto-focus sensor not being in sync. With a mirrorless, if the sensor based auto-focus gets it in focus, then it will be in focus for the image sensor (as they are one on the same). This minimizes the need to fine tune auto focus to compensate for differences due to manufacturing tolerances.

The disadvantage of sensor based auto-focus is that you are using the same sensor for both image capture and auto-focus. This means the design has to be a compromise. When you have separate auto-focus and image capture sensors, each can be optimized for that particular task.

For instance an auto-focus sensor can use IR light to track subjects. A dedicated auto-focus sensor can mix and match low precision focus points for f/5.6 lenses, and high precision focus points for f/2.8 lenses. These can even be co-located.

So it’s not a matter of mirrorless auto-focus being better than DSLR auto-focus. It’s just that they have different strengths and weaknesses.
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
A mirrorless could allow you to pre-visualize the image, but it would have limitations, and is generally considered not to be worth it.

When you take a photo, the camera has the flash emit a low-power pre-flash. The camera meters the scene both before and during the pre-flash. By comparing the two, the camera can determine how the flash affects the scene, and computes the flash power needed to get the desired exposure.

By actually metering a pre-flash, it takes into account any modifiers on the flash, and any surfaces the flash is being bounced off of.

Normally this pre-flash occurs just before the shutter is opened. However, it would be possible to have firmware that issued a pre-flash while you were composing the image, The camera could then use software to update the EVF to display in real time, an estimate of what the scene would like with flash illumination. If the camera, subject, or surroundings are moving or changing, the estimate would quickly become out of date, requiring another pre-flash.

In order to minimize annoyance and minimize battery drain, these pre-flashes would need to be low power. However, the lower the power, the harder it is to gauge how the flash affects the scene.

I don’t think that this would be a helpful solution in the general case..

If you want to pre-visualize the results, you may be better off using LED constant lighting rather than strobe.
 
So theoretically, there is presently no way for mirrorless EVF to improve on bounce flash photography in the near future?

The flash must pre-fire and bounce off the ceiling to give any preview result of the image in the EVF?

So presently, when you look into your Canon R5's EVF under low light social function indoors, you see a slightly grainy low light image, with not as much magnification as a Sony A7R V, and you just have to do a test shot with the bounce flash to see what the image looks like, and adjust on that shot if necessary?

However, the true beauty of the mirrorless EVF comes up when you shoot without flash, and in such cases, the EVF will give you a preview of the final shot as you adjust your aperture, exposure and ISO?
 
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So theoretically, there is presently no way for mirrorless EVF to improve on bounce flash photography in the near future?
Do not confuse "improving flash photography" with "improving the preview image".

Theoretically, there is a lot of room for improvement.

The camera can use a very low power measuring-flash, and see how it affects the image. If the measuring-flash is low enough power, it may be barely noticeable.

The camera can use AI to track the subjects in the frame, and lighten the preview for various parts of the image in order to show what they will look like if a the flash were fired for real.

When the camera loses confidence it can fire off another low power measuring-flash.

Now this requires a lot more computational power that you typically find in a stand alone camera.

The flash must pre-fire and bounce off the ceiling to give any preview result of the image in the EVF?
That's certainly a good way for the camera to learn about how the environment will reflect the flash.
So presently, when you look into your Canon R5's EVF under low light social function indoors, you see a slightly grainy low light image, with not as much magnification as a Sony A7R V, and you just have to do a test shot with the bounce flash to see what the image looks like, and adjust on that shot if necessary?
With any current model camera, if you want to see what the flash is going to do, you need to actually take a shot and review it.

Similarly, if you want o preview depth of field, or motion blur, your best bet is to take a shot and review it.

As to low light preview, that depends on the camera and the lens. An f/1.8 lens is going to give you a a less noisy preview than an f/5.6 lens.

However, the true beauty of the mirrorless EVF comes up when you shoot without flash, and in such cases, the EVF will give you a preview of the final shot as you adjust your aperture, exposure and ISO?
Yes and no. First of all, the preview is limited by the dynamic range and resolution of the viewfinder. The preview typically happens with the lens wide open, so it doesn't show depth of field. The live video makes it difficult to judge motion blur.

However, it does give you a good idea of how dark or light the camera produced JPEG will look.

If you are doing any sort of custom processing of the image, the EVF probably won't match your results and likely may be a detriment. Imagine shooting a backlit model at the beach. With an optical viewfinder, you can see both the model's smile, and what's happening in the background. However, the scene may have more dynamic range than the EVF can handle. Either the model's face will be lost in shadow, or the background will be blown out. If you are manually adjusting the tone curve when you process the raw data (or using fill flash), the EVF doesn't reflect how it will look.

.

Now I am not saying that EVF is bad. Only that it has both advantages and disadvantages. If your concern is previewing the lightness of the camera produced JPEG without taking a test image, then they are very helpful. Do keep in mind that the human visual system is very bad at judging how dark or light something is. Your impression will be dramatically swayed by context. An EVF preview that looks bright in a dimly lit room, might look too dark when viewed outside. If you really want to judge image lightness of the camera produced JPEG, it's hard to beat the histogram display.
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate
As far as I understand from OP, I suppose knowing the basic on how Live View works can explain it.

LV is nothing mircle, gets the sensor data and calculate the light value of the frame as per the metering method used, equated it into a lightness of 0ev metering (for auto/semi auto shooting modes), increase or reduce the lightness in case of any exposure bias, finally add other effects like filters, light curve manipulation, WB etc to simulate an LV image in evf/LCD.

the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?
Yes, you know it.

When we use flash, the piece of information on extra light is not predictable by our camera (a lot of reasons can't / not to do it, e.g. no consistant flash power output among brands of flash, unknown real output power because of many resaons, bounce just makes it more complicated etc. Not to mention multiple lighting would be used).

Hence it might not be practisable for LV to add the effect on extra light from fresh.
Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
In a word yes.

However except for the preview on simulated output, when we used flash in darker environment, LV can still produce a reasonable bright enough evf/LCD for operation. Ovf of DSLR (non LV operation) might just offer a dark screen making operation difficult.

Don't take LV any magic. It is just an advancement on output media of our camera over ovf to give more information only. One day if our camera has good enough processing power to talk to the flash and know exactly what it will do, LV might include flash effect as well. :-)
 
So theoretically, there is presently no way for mirrorless EVF to improve on bounce flash photography in the near future?

The flash must pre-fire and bounce off the ceiling to give any preview result of the image in the EVF?

So presently, when you look into your Canon R5's EVF under low light social function indoors, you see a slightly grainy low light image, with not as much magnification as a Sony A7R V, and you just have to do a test shot with the bounce flash to see what the image looks like, and adjust on that shot if necessary?

However, the true beauty of the mirrorless EVF comes up when you shoot without flash, and in such cases, the EVF will give you a preview of the final shot as you adjust your aperture, exposure and ISO?
Well.. the EVF will help you preview exposure, but remember that you can adjust the viewfinder’s brightness, so you cannot determine exposure by looking into the viewfinder. Instead, you need to check the histogram or blinkies. Sony lets you do this before you shoot, while Canon does not.
 
Well.. the EVF will help you preview exposure...
"Exposure" is the amount of light reaching the sensor while the shutter is open. It is not how dark or light the image looks. The same exposure can result in a dark, light or normal looking image, depending on your exposure. If your image looks to light, the exposure may be perfect, but your ISO may be set too high.

Now you could say that EVF helps you judge your ISO setting. EVF can help you determine if the ISO is set too high or too low for the expected exposure.

.

Again, I am not saying that EVF isn't useful, it's just that we should be clear on what it does so novices don't get confused about the difference between exposure and image lightness. Nor do we want them to think that an image that is too light or too dark has must have an exposure problem (it could just as easily have an ISO problem).
 
One of the major benefits of mirrorless EVF cameras is that it can pre-calculate the final image as we adjust the aperture, exposure time and ISO sensitivity. Therefore, as I dial up the exposure time, the image in the EVF will get brighter etc.

However, is it true that mirrorless EVF cannot pre-calculate to show the final EVF image for flash and bounce-flash photography, especially bounce flash photography, because the ceilings and hence light output are so variable, that the flash must fire to measure the light falling on the subject?

Hence, for low light indoor bounce-flash photography, mirrorless EVF is not a huge advantage compared to traditional aging dSLR's?
No it cant ... but neither can OVF (dSLR).
 
That is true.
 

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