Canon R7 @15fps. Rolling shutter still on electronic?

Imajica said:

ZapperVT said:

Imajica said:

Imajica said:

Another thing to note is that the 15fps mechanical shutter (H+ drive mode) comes with a big limitation - the viewfinder does not refresh smoothly but turns into a "slide-show", only showing the last image recorded. This makes it hard to track a moving object, although it is fine for a stationary one. The regular H drive mode is 6.5 fps mechanical and 8 fps electronic first-curtain shutter. In this drive mode the viewfinder refreshes in between shots, although the viewfinder blackout during each shot is pronounced.

Click to expand...

How bad is the blackout? I have an R7 on order. I shoot motocross and BMX races and I often shoot sequence shots. From the beginning of a jump, in the air, and then the landing. Am I going to regret my purchase if I cannot keep the bikes in the frame due to the fact that I cannot see them?
How is the battery life? On my 7Dii, i can get about 3000-3500 shots on a single battery if I don't play with the screen too much.

Click to expand...

When I compare the R7 with electronic first shutter in H (8fps) with my D500 in H (10 fps), the viewfinder in the R7 is definitely jerkier when I'm panning. It's not a total slide show like on the H+ speed but the real framerate in the viewfinder is low. The D500 has blackouts when the mirror is up obviously but the viewfinder refresh is immediate when the mirror is down, and it's easier to follow movement. Since the 7Dii is in the same league as the D500, I think you might be disappointed with the R7 in comparison. On the other hand, the AF on the F7 does things my D500 can't do.

Really what you and I want is a performance APS-C camera with a stacked sensor and blackout free viewfinder. That's what I was hoping for, but that's not what Canon wanted to make.

I can't give you a shots per battery life, because I haven't been keeping track. I don't think it's as good as my D500. Those EVFs use a lot of juice.

Click to expand...

What is the point of creating a camera with 15fps Mechanical if when you come to use it, you in effect become blind? When shooting fast-moving sports, you cannot use the Electronic shutter because of the rolling shutter effect. Sure the AF must be incredible, but it has a high cost. Sure if you shoot photos one at a time, it is more than fine, but as a sports camera, it becomes more of a hindrance. Or if you have to slow it down, then it sort of defeats the purpose of having 15fps.

I know the AF on the 7Dii has some issues locking on to subjects moving all over the place. I can never use full frame focusing as it likes to track the ground and I get too many misses. So I have to use the middle set of focus points, so the number plate is in focus, but not the head. If I use the top focus points, I get the impression they are not as accurate as the center ones and I get a lot of misses. Shooting in portrait mode. So I am hoping the R7 will be better. However, if I cannot see the subject I am tracking, I am no better off.

I am almost considering canceling the order and waiting until the store gets a demonstrator model that I can test out before spending $2k (CAD)

While the R3 is well out of my budget, does it have the same blackout issues as the R7?

Click to expand...

No the R3 uses a stacked sensor with fast readout, so you can use electronic shutter for fast moving subjects. So does the Z9 and A1. The only APS-C camera with a stacked sensor is the Fuji X-H2S. But although there are claims that Fuji has nearly caught up in AF performance, I'm dubious about that.

As for the R7, the 15fps mechanical shutter is OK for some situation where you can point the camera at one place and wait for the action, like a baseball batter, or bird taking off. Not so much when you have to track a fast moving object. The R7 is kind of half baked: a fast processor with great AF, and a slow recycled sensor. It's fine for the price point. It's not the performance APS-C body that 7Dii and D500 owners are waiting for.

The build quality isn't great either. There are no rubber grommets on the battery and memory card doors. Do you shoot in the rain?

ZapperVT said:

No the R3 uses a stacked sensor with fast readout, so you can use electronic shutter for fast moving subjects. So does the Z9 and A1. The only APS-C camera with a stacked sensor is the Fuji X-H2S. But although there are claims that Fuji has nearly caught up in AF performance, I'm dubious about that.

Click to expand...

using an R3 with the mechanical shutter, does it have the black-out problem? The E-shutter would only fix the possible rolling shutter effect. I do not think the e-shutter has blackout issues. The screen just blinks with a white frame around it I believe, even on the R7. I tested the R3 in-store in e-shutter mode only, and there were no blackout problems.

ZapperVT said:

As for the R7, the 15fps mechanical shutter is OK for some situation where you can point the camera at one place and wait for the action, like a baseball batter, or bird taking off. Not so much when you have to track a fast moving object. The R7 is kind of half baked: a fast processor with great AF, and a slow recycled sensor. It's fine for the price point. It's not the performance APS-C body that 7Dii and D500 owners are waiting for.

The build quality isn't great either. There are no rubber grommets on the battery and memory card doors. Do you shoot in the rain?

Click to expand...

That is very disappointing. I may just cancel and test it out at the store when they get one in stock to see if it is something I can deal with. I do need to be able to track the bikes as they move, and they move pretty quickly. How do people use the R7 to shoot BIF? The rolling shutter causes problems, so I imagine they use the mechanical shutter.

As for shooting in the rain, I don't go out purposely to shoot in the rain, but I do sometimes get caught in showers. If I am going to shoot in the rain I have a raincoat for the camera that I use.

From what I have been able to glean so far, the R7 seems to be more of a replacement for the 90D and not a true replacement for the 7Dii.

I am still undecided.

The R7 isn't a 7DII replacement in regards to build. It is more of prosumer mirrorless solution. That being said, the technological advancements exceed what you can do with a 7DII.

Yes, there is shutter blackout in mechanical mode. I can still track birds in flight so I would assume that you could still track vehicles. A lot of that will depend on the distance from the subject. It will obviously be more difficult if you are filling the frame with the subject. I have been able to track fast moving swallows and terns. Bald eagles and blue herons are more difficult since they occupy more of the viewfinder at times but I can still generally track them since their movements are more consistent. It is a challenge but it is doable. There is still a slide show effect when shooting in electronic mode but, again, it is fine once you get used to it. You will have an issue with rolling shutter if you are panning to keep up with a lateral moving subject. That may be less of a concern if you have motion blur due to the speed of the panning.

Imajica said:

ZapperVT said:

No the R3 uses a stacked sensor with fast readout, so you can use electronic shutter for fast moving subjects. So does the Z9 and A1. The only APS-C camera with a stacked sensor is the Fuji X-H2S. But although there are claims that Fuji has nearly caught up in AF performance, I'm dubious about that.

Click to expand...

using an R3 with the mechanical shutter, does it have the black-out problem? The E-shutter would only fix the possible rolling shutter effect. I do not think the e-shutter has blackout issues. The screen just blinks with a white frame around it I believe, even on the R7. I tested the R3 in-store in e-shutter mode only, and there were no blackout problems.

Imajica said:

As for the R7, the 15fps mechanical shutter is OK for some situation where you can point the camera at one place and wait for the action, like a baseball batter, or bird taking off. Not so much when you have to track a fast moving object. The R7 is kind of half baked: a fast processor with great AF, and a slow recycled sensor. It's fine for the price point. It's not the performance APS-C body that 7Dii and D500 owners are waiting for.

The build quality isn't great either. There are no rubber grommets on the battery and memory card doors. Do you shoot in the rain?

Click to expand...

That is very disappointing. I may just cancel and test it out at the store when they get one in stock to see if it is something I can deal with. I do need to be able to track the bikes as they move, and they move pretty quickly. How do people use the R7 to shoot BIF? The rolling shutter causes problems, so I imagine they use the mechanical shutter.

As for shooting in the rain, I don't go out purposely to shoot in the rain, but I do sometimes get caught in showers. If I am going to shoot in the rain I have a raincoat for the camera that I use.

From what I have been able to glean so far, the R7 seems to be more of a replacement for the 90D and not a true replacement for the 7Dii.

I am still undecided.

Click to expand...

Be very careful in making decisions based primarily on the opinion of one person.

Imajica said:

ZapperVT said:

No the R3 uses a stacked sensor with fast readout, so you can use electronic shutter for fast moving subjects. So does the Z9 and A1. The only APS-C camera with a stacked sensor is the Fuji X-H2S. But although there are claims that Fuji has nearly caught up in AF performance, I'm dubious about that.

Click to expand...

using an R3 with the mechanical shutter, does it have the black-out problem? The E-shutter would only fix the possible rolling shutter effect. I do not think the e-shutter has blackout issues. The screen just blinks with a white frame around it I believe, even on the R7. I tested the R3 in-store in e-shutter mode only, and there were no blackout problems.

Click to expand...

The mechanical shutter has to black out the sensor, so there's going to be some blackout. But the R3 can read out its sensor much faster then return to regular EVF refreshes, so that slide-show effect will be much less. I'm speaking theoretically now, I haven't used the R3.

Imajica said:

Imajica said:

As for the R7, the 15fps mechanical shutter is OK for some situation where you can point the camera at one place and wait for the action, like a baseball batter, or bird taking off. Not so much when you have to track a fast moving object. The R7 is kind of half baked: a fast processor with great AF, and a slow recycled sensor. It's fine for the price point. It's not the performance APS-C body that 7Dii and D500 owners are waiting for.

The build quality isn't great either. There are no rubber grommets on the battery and memory card doors. Do you shoot in the rain?

Click to expand...

That is very disappointing. I may just cancel and test it out at the store when they get one in stock to see if it is something I can deal with. I do need to be able to track the bikes as they move, and they move pretty quickly. How do people use the R7 to shoot BIF? The rolling shutter causes problems, so I imagine they use the mechanical shutter.

Click to expand...

I shot BIF with the electronic shutter - I haven't seen any obvious rolling shutter distortion yet. But these have been larger birds like osprey and terns, small fast birds would be different.

Imajica said:

As for shooting in the rain, I don't go out purposely to shoot in the rain, but I do sometimes get caught in showers. If I am going to shoot in the rain I have a raincoat for the camera that I use.

Click to expand...

I call it a camera condom.

Imajica said:

From what I have been able to glean so far, the R7 seems to be more of a replacement for the 90D and not a true replacement for the 7Dii.

Click to expand...

That would be my judgement too. I made a post of my experiences so far. Despite not being the 7Dii level camera I was hoping for, the AF has made a big improvement in my hit rate over the Nikon D500. But part of the credit goes to the RF 100-500mm, which is just a better focusing lens than the Tamron 150-600 G2 that I'm using on the D500. And it's much lighter too.

I don't really view the R7 as a long term thing. I'm assuming that Canon or Nikon will get around to making a stacked APS-C body and then I'll upgrade. For now it's still an improvement over my DSLR, despite the limitations.

Imajica said:

I am still undecided.

Click to expand...

Rick65 said:

The R7 isn't a 7DII replacement in regards to build. It is more of prosumer mirrorless solution. That being said, the technological advancements exceed what you can do with a 7DII.

Yes, there is shutter blackout in mechanical mode. I can still track birds in flight so I would assume that you could still track vehicles. A lot of that will depend on the distance from the subject. It will obviously be more difficult if you are filling the frame with the subject. I have been able to track fast moving swallows and terns. Bald eagles and blue herons are more difficult since they occupy more of the viewfinder at times but I can still generally track them since their movements are more consistent. It is a challenge but it is doable. There is still a slide show effect when shooting in electronic mode but, again, it is fine once you get used to it. You will have an issue with rolling shutter if you are panning to keep up with a lateral moving subject. That may be less of a concern if you have motion blur due to the speed of the panning.

Click to expand...

I try to fill the frame as much as possible. Here is an example. Nothing special, but one of a sequence I took. I do not frame so tight all the time, but a large part of the time I do. As the bikes move laterally, and I follow them to shoot a sequence as they go around a curb or jump in the air, I am sure there will be rolling shutter. How bad will it be I won't know until I try it out for myself. Which is why I think the mechanical shutter would be better, so long as I do not lose the subject as the bikes take most of the screen



I assume based on the photos, the AF would be able to lock on the faces as they jump or go around the curb. The 7d has its own set of challenges.

Take a look at Duade Pattons latest Youtube video from last week:


In addition to being an unbiased reviewer, he has some sample video of his screen while he was taking pictures of a motorcycle safety class. You can see the blackout though I don't remember if he was shooting in mechanical or electronic. The purpose of the video was to discuss the Sigma 150-600 and R7 focus pulsing but it shows good examples of what you could expect to see when tracking vehicles in motion while taking pictures.

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

R2D2 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

Click to expand...

Oh I forgot to mention I also want to shoot birds in flight-- we get a lot of cardinals, mockingbirds, hummingbirds, blue jays, etc.

Mostly flying on and off from my feeders or perches.

Imajica said:

Rick65 said:

The R7 isn't a 7DII replacement in regards to build. It is more of prosumer mirrorless solution. That being said, the technological advancements exceed what you can do with a 7DII.

Yes, there is shutter blackout in mechanical mode. I can still track birds in flight so I would assume that you could still track vehicles. A lot of that will depend on the distance from the subject. It will obviously be more difficult if you are filling the frame with the subject. I have been able to track fast moving swallows and terns. Bald eagles and blue herons are more difficult since they occupy more of the viewfinder at times but I can still generally track them since their movements are more consistent. It is a challenge but it is doable. There is still a slide show effect when shooting in electronic mode but, again, it is fine once you get used to it. You will have an issue with rolling shutter if you are panning to keep up with a lateral moving subject. That may be less of a concern if you have motion blur due to the speed of the panning.

Click to expand...

I try to fill the frame as much as possible. Here is an example. Nothing special, but one of a sequence I took. I do not frame so tight all the time, but a large part of the time I do. As the bikes move laterally, and I follow them to shoot a sequence as they go around a curb or jump in the air, I am sure there will be rolling shutter. How bad will it be I won't know until I try it out for myself. Which is why I think the mechanical shutter would be better, so long as I do not lose the subject as the bikes take most of the screen

I assume based on the photos, the AF would be able to lock on the faces as they jump or go around the curb. The 7d has its own set of challenges.

Click to expand...

Old thread, but I thought I'd answer this question for those reading.

For a sport like this then mShutter would be the way to go (no distorted backgrounds, and no distorted bikes as they swing around). Tracking riders would be no problem for the shooter. I'd use 15 FPS.

R2

OutsideTheMatrix said:

R2D2 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

Click to expand...

Oh I forgot to mention I also want to shoot birds in flight-- we get a lot of cardinals, mockingbirds, hummingbirds, blue jays, etc.

Mostly flying on and off from my feeders or perches.

--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Click to expand...

Birds in flight will be more of a challenge wrt rolling shutter on the R7. If you have a fairly uniform background the effects aren’t as noticeable and I’ve gotten lots of in flight shots that I’m happy with using the R7 but rolling shutter can be an issue. The nice thing is that you do get 15fps EFCS and rolling shutter in that mode is pretty much undetectable.







--
Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/

OutsideTheMatrix said:

R2D2 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

Click to expand...

Oh I forgot to mention I also want to shoot birds in flight-- we get a lot of cardinals, mockingbirds, hummingbirds, blue jays, etc.

Mostly flying on and off from my feeders or perches.

Click to expand...

Small quick birds pose the biggest challenge. Birds flitting around and hummers hovering won't be a problem to track, but take-offs and even landings will be hard to track no matter what mode you're in. I'd recommend very fast shutter speeds, a smallish apertrue, and a wider field of view. Pre-focus when you can, to give the AF the best chance to lock on.

If you want to keep wing distortion to a minimum, then you should use mShutter, but for tracking eShutter will make things easier. You might even want to try RAW Burst Mode for this.

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

X

OutsideTheMatrix said:

That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Click to expand...

to reveal fine detail such as those you need several factors to come together, including:

> steady atmosphere
> steady camera platform without shake or shock
> large lens Aperture and long focal length (angular resolving power and magnification)
> high pixel density (as many pixels on the planet as you can get)
> accurate infinity focus
> good sharp optics

You will also benefit from frame stacking software optimised for planetary imaging

In my opinion the R7, 90D, M6II and the various 20Mpix Micro Fourthirds cameras are the best conventional interchangeable lens cameras for this. But your 75-300mm lens will probably struggle to resolve fine planetary detail.

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

e-shutter has the same 30sec max exposure limit.

Peter

BirdShooter7 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

R2D2 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

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Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

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Oh I forgot to mention I also want to shoot birds in flight-- we get a lot of cardinals, mockingbirds, hummingbirds, blue jays, etc.

Mostly flying on and off from my feeders or perches.

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Birds in flight will be more of a challenge wrt rolling shutter on the R7. If you have a fairly uniform background the effects aren’t as noticeable and I’ve gotten lots of in flight shots that I’m happy with using the R7 but rolling shutter can be an issue. The nice thing is that you do get 15fps EFCS and rolling shutter in that mode is pretty much undetectable.

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Wow I had to look again at the top two, it looks like two birds merged together!

Something I dont understand-- why dont all camera manufacturers implement electronic shutter the same way they do movie mode? Why do we see these slow read out rates? From what I read, I gather it's 1/30th of a second in R7? I can use EFCS but another purpose I wanted to use electronic shutter for was to eliminate shutter wear, since I do take a lot of images and usually in sustained bursts.

Are there any shutter speed limits with electronic shutter (I also wanted to use it for long exposure astrophotography.)

If the bird is flying from left to right or right to left away from or landing on a feeder or perch does that reduce the electronic shutter artifacts?

Also- what kind of shutter speeds do you use to freeze hummingbird wings? And is there a specific range of shutter speeds not to use with electronic shutter? Thanks!





--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Messier Object said:

X

Messier Object said:

That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Click to expand...

to reveal fine detail such as those you need several factors to come together, including:

> steady atmosphere
> steady camera platform without shake or shock
> large lens Aperture and long focal length (angular resolving power and magnification)
> high pixel density (as many pixels on the planet as you can get)
> accurate infinity focus
> good sharp optics

You will also benefit from frame stacking software optimised for planetary imaging

In my opinion the R7, 90D, M6II and the various 20Mpix Micro Fourthirds cameras are the best conventional interchangeable lens cameras for this. But your 75-300mm lens will probably struggle to resolve fine planetary detail.

Messier Object said:

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

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e-shutter has the same 30sec max exposure limit.

Peter

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Thanks! I think it's 60 seconds on the Olympus cameras-- although that's a moot point since I don't have a tracker! In Bulb mode both systems (Canon and Olympus) use the mechanical shutter only?

I have a question about stacking for planetary detail....is a tracker needed for this? For deep space or starry landscape photography, it's not-- I usually follow the 500 rule. But what about for taking images of planets or the moon? Do these still follow the 500 rule even at high magnifications? So let's say I shoot a burst of 15 frames in one second of the planet Jupiter or Saturn or Mars-- would these need to be on a tracking platform for something like PIPP to align them? Since it's only a one second burst maybe not?

OutsideTheMatrix said:

BirdShooter7 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

R2D2 said:

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

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It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

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it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Click to expand...

I've been interested in the R7 plus the RF 100-400mm lens combo because of its low weight (1.2 kg combined), hard to find that kind of low weight combo elsewhere and 1.2 kg is about my limit for what I can carry. Is its read out speed about the same as my EM10 Mk 2 (which is I think 1/20 sec)? That RF lens has the same FOV as my 75-300 lens and I'd like to compare them to see if I can get as good (or better) a view of Saturn's rings (or even the Cassini Division), the bands on Jupiter, the Martian Polar Ice Cap, etc.

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

Even though those objects are moving VERY quickly, I don't think you'll have a problem with rolling shutter. ;-)

R2

Click to expand...

Oh I forgot to mention I also want to shoot birds in flight-- we get a lot of cardinals, mockingbirds, hummingbirds, blue jays, etc.

Mostly flying on and off from my feeders or perches.

Click to expand...

Birds in flight will be more of a challenge wrt rolling shutter on the R7. If you have a fairly uniform background the effects aren’t as noticeable and I’ve gotten lots of in flight shots that I’m happy with using the R7 but rolling shutter can be an issue. The nice thing is that you do get 15fps EFCS and rolling shutter in that mode is pretty much undetectable.

Click to expand...

Wow I had to look again at the top two, it looks like two birds merged together!

Something I dont understand-- why dont all camera manufacturers implement electronic shutter the same way they do movie mode? Why do we see these slow read out rates? From what I read, I gather it's 1/30th of a second in R7? I can use EFCS but another purpose I wanted to use electronic shutter for was to eliminate shutter wear, since I do take a lot of images and usually in sustained bursts.

Are there any shutter speed limits with electronic shutter (I also wanted to use it for long exposure astrophotography.)

If the bird is flying from left to right or right to left away from or landing on a feeder or perch does that reduce the electronic shutter artifacts?

Click to expand...

You might be able to reduce the effect by rotating the camera to portrait orientation for panning shots?

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Also- what kind of shutter speeds do you use to freeze hummingbird wings? And is there a specific range of shutter speeds not to use with electronic shutter? Thanks!

Click to expand...

These we’re all taken at 1/3200s. Freezing the wings requires a really fast shutter speed

OutsideTheMatrix said:

--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Click to expand...

--
Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Also are there any shutter speed limitations on the electronic shutter-- as in a max and min shutter speed it can be used with (I also want to use it with long exposure astrophotography.)

Click to expand...

The R7 goes up to 1/16,000s in e-shutter mode.

BirdShooter7 said:

Birds in flight will be more of a challenge wrt rolling shutter on the R7. If you have a fairly uniform background the effects aren’t as noticeable and I’ve gotten lots of in flight shots that I’m happy with using the R7 but rolling shutter can be an issue. The nice thing is that you do get 15fps EFCS and rolling shutter in that mode is pretty much undetectable.

Click to expand...

Probably one of the fastest out there; how many mechanical shutters have flash sync at 1/320s?

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Wow I had to look again at the top two, it looks like two birds merged together!

Something I dont understand-- why dont all camera manufacturers implement electronic shutter the same way they do movie mode?

Click to expand...

It's not the shutter; it's the way you view things. Rolling shutter is slow in video, too. You just don't notice it in the same way you do in a still image for a number of reasons.

Take the double bird wing in Birshooter7's examples. If that was one frame in a series of many, you would never see two wings unless you paused the video, because with the position of the wing before and after that frame will determine how you experience it, and you won't even notice that the two wing positions happened in the same frame.

Also, video usually blurs motion with typical shutter speeds of 180 degrees.

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Why do we see these slow read out rates? From what I read, I gather it's 1/30th of a second in R7? I can use EFCS but another purpose I wanted to use electronic shutter for was to eliminate shutter wear, since I do take a lot of images and usually in sustained bursts.

Click to expand...

Everything about the R7 sensor suggests to me that it is actually the 90D sensor; somewhat dated technology, as far as readout speed is concerned. Canon claims a "new sensor", but they could say that even if they just changed the AA filter, the IR-cut filter, the color filters, or the microlenses.

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Are there any shutter speed limits with electronic shutter (I also wanted to use it for long exposure astrophotography.)

If the bird is flying from left to right or right to left away from or landing on a feeder or perch does that reduce the electronic shutter artifacts?

Click to expand...

Horizontal motion artifacts, too, with a bit of a tilt, just like a panned background, but the most obvious potential wing/prop artifacts are in the vertical motion, especially things that quickly oscillate up and down.

Another way of looking at it is that if you had only horizontal motion, and no vertical motion, then the capture is very much like an image taken with a global shutter, but each horizontal line moved horizontally. The artifacts from up-and-down motion, however, can not be simulated at all with shifted lines from a global shutter.

OutsideTheMatrix said:

Also- what kind of shutter speeds do you use to freeze hummingbird wings? And is there a specific range of shutter speeds not to use with electronic shutter? Thanks!

Click to expand...

--
Beware of correct answers to wrong questions.
John
http://www.pbase.com/image/55384958.jpg