Regor250
Veteran Member
And I wonder how they'll hang those videos when they grow up! .... but you are right they are very different than baby boomers that's for sure.
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Is Panasonic barking up the wrong marketing tree?
- Thread starter Tom Caldwell
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larsbc
Forum Pro
There are other paradigms for enjoying art besides hanging it on a wall. Even my Mom, who is 90, prefers to look at photos (and videos) on her iPad.
The point is the ad being shown doesn't demonstrate this forum represents the general market for those products.
Not sure if you are being facetious, but I'm talking about threads where actual technical details about video features are discussed. There were other threads that show it more clearly that I participated in but I forgot the exact ones, but this is just some examples I found from a quick search:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4666874
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4647540
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4636042
When a slightly more advanced question about video is asked in these forums, only a few people tend to be able to answer (one of threads above was even answered by technical editor). Participation is much more active when there are advanced discussions about stills related features (like HDR, High Res, the various advanced CAF modes, etc). I'm not claiming there are zero video users here, but it seems obvious to me it's much less than stills.
Long story short, I highly doubt this forum is representative of the general market for a GH6, so presuming it is true there is little interest in the GH6 here says very little about how it does in the general market. As others point out, it appears to be selling just as well as the OM1 at B&H.
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Bassam Guy
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A tad vague. What, precisely, do you mean by "performance"? It can mean many things to many people.
My guess is that, to you, "capable" means FF sensor. It would help for you to explain yourself a bit better so we don't have to guess. To me, "capable" means having a broader range of capabilities, not more depth at a few capabilities.
I have no more need for more than 16MP than I have need to drive a school bus to the grocery store. The 'pro' work I do, for events (formal parties, speeches, marches, press conferences, refusing weddings) is for online publication and is certainly printable.
Not all of us have the funds, nor even consider it financially wise, to afford M43, APSC, and FF kits like you have.
For most people, cost is nothing to scoff at. New or used M43 bodies are less expensive than similar FF equivalents, and the same applies to lenses.
Don't overlook size. Bodies, I agree, can't be smaller than what is workable for adult-sized hands. But M43 lenses of equal angle-of-view and effective aperture are far smaller, meaning I can carry a more versatile kit in a smaller bag.
Whether M43 is dead or not remains to be seen. If it dies it will not be due to the format, or - with the newest sensors from O. and P. - the 'technology', and it certainly won't be in breadth of capabilities. Rather, it would be due to consumers insatiable naïve obsession with MP & sensor size, when 99% of us, professionals included, are capable of consistently taking high quality, well exposed, and well composed photographs with M43 cameras.
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So Panasonic is paying for giant ads on the main page of DPR because DPR is not the market for GH6. Got it.
As you demonstrate, video questions are being asked here. Which means DPR members are using video. But DPR members are not buying GH6's. Why is that?
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melnais
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As camera manufacturers head towards the high end of the market with their product by sheer weight of numbers the working photographers will choose FF. Most in the industry already have ff lenses and newbies with money to burn will head up market. Calling them naïve is probably a naïve and narrow minded viewpoint
Hobbyists can please themselves though the pro market will dictate the form of product even Leica like having professional photographers using their product.
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Cafe Racer
Senior Member
Young people also want analogue film cameras.
KEH top selling analogue SLRs:
KEH top selling analogue SLRs:
- Canon AE-1
- Pentax K1000
- Nikon F3
- Nikon FE
- Nikon F100
- Minolta X-700
- Canon A-1
- Pentax ME
- Mamiya RB67
- Olympus OM10
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Raist3d
Guest
Cool.Appreciate the clarification.I don't know why you say "finally admitting." I said this a while back. I mean, aren't we quoting something I said much earlier?. I only expanding on the obvious scope of what I said, but I am always up for clarifying.
No need to be sorry. Having decades just make it that much more obvious. You are correct- it doesn't take decades to see that dpreview is more stills oriented than video oriented. Forget the GH6 and scan the different forums- the majority of user content is mostly about stills more than video.
It is a target but that's not quite what you said at first. Also there's levels of intensity of how much of a target if you will- and again, companies can target all they want and that may still not reflect the reality of the audience. Many assumptions in there to reach a categorical conclusion that's hard to hold that way.
Yes, but we know the GH6 strength is in video. Hence not super surprising in a more stills oriented website we don't see as much GH6. Moreover- again, dpreview sample is biased. What you are seeing may not be necessarily at all the professionals and enthusiasts working with the model even if they read dpreview- just yet another consideration.
Actually some get quite a bit of traffic too. Of course in general speaking stills market for digital cameras has been bigger than video. We are seeing a gradual shift to hybrid "be good at both" deal relatively recently.
This is a clear misunderstanding of what the science of statistics can do to minimize such. So just because you may have some degree of bias in a sample doesn't mean there are other samples of a population that as a whole are vastly more representative than others.Show me any sample that is free from bias...?Again, dpreview sample is biased and does not represent the entire market. It's more biased towards stills than video.Did that translate to purchases? Apparently not among enthusiasts and professionals here.Not sure what you mean by that. The GH6 was in the top popular cameras for a somewhat similar time to the OM-1. You didn't say it was the only target, but you said it was the target. So....I did not say we are the ONLY target. Certainly a target. Which makes the lack of GH6 interest here all the more puzzling.You see, you said something I didn't say. I said we are *a target*, just not *the target*. So the so called "uniformed opinion" you quote that apparently you made up is in the dirt, but not my opinion
Read above. It's been said many times by now.
The high sales were already happening before the $400 offer. Again, Panasonic could be doing a calculation here based on a sensor they are not using from Sony that could very well be cheaper, and try to spread the installed base as they want to sell lenses. There's several explanations there.
It's definitively not a red herring that if a website is more stills oriented you see more interest in a still oriented camera than one that has video as better competency than many other models.
You seem to dance around the evidence in front of you in remarkable ways. I don't know why you seem to hate Panasonic so much and their models. If a website is more stills oriented then it surely follows there will be more interest in a forum in other models than GH6 simply because the GH6 excels at video more than stills.
Panasonic advertising on the website doesn't change that. Not all advertisers are in a #1 position or "main interest" of a community.
There's two things here: I don't have to do a full on support on that because the mere reasonable possibility is enough to put holes in your categorical conclusions. Note that I am not saying it's impossible what you are saying but that with dpreview's sample we don't know for sure, therefore can't be categorical.
The other of course is -check other websites that are more video oriented. The GH6 and other Lumixes in the GH category have more name. It's pretty straight forward to see why.
As I pointed earlier, there can be several reasons. It's possible Panasonic has a cheaper sensor to manufacture than what Sony offered OMDS and can afford to do this because their math says having the bodies out to push the lenses makes more money.
Also seems like that's Panasonic USA.
Because, once again, as a hybrid whose strength is more on the Video side rather than stills, in a stills oriented website you are not going to get as much traction (saying failing to get traction is a bit premature for the model).So it does shoot stills. It also shoots video. Thus a hybrid. Like MANY hybrids on DPR...why is this one failing to get traction?Yes, it can still take pictures. But it's core competency is more on the video side. Yet again, the BHPhoto top best seller list has the GH6 ranking high vs the "no traction" here. What could that possibly mean?Exactly my point. It can take still pictures. Still no traction on a site with tens of thousands of enthusiasts and professionals around the world.Anyhow, also just in case we forgot- the GH6 also can take still pictures after all
Again, a stills oriented side doesn't preclude video, and that's what they are targeting. But keep laughing, we are sure you are enjoying that trip through Milan and the full time job of being anti anything Lumix ;-)
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Raist3d
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The community at dpreview has a history of being more stills oriented. Having more in depth reviews of particular areas will attract a community looking for that information. Same with other sites that focus more on video or put as much focus on video as stills.Examples showing that "in depth review" leads to sales?Having some video questions being asked here or reviewing here some ILC video capability doesn't compare to the kind of in-depth review / interest of video oriented websites, and it's a relatively new development at dpreview.Indeed because we are target for those ads...just like GH6.
Video questions are being asked here. Reviews of ILC video capability are posted. Why the lack of interest with GH6?Are you serious about this? Have you not noticed when people ask video related questions, very few here seem to have the expertise to answer? Whereas when a stills related question is asked, there are plenty of useful responses, way more than if a video related question is asked.Read the statements posted in this thread by you and others:
"Old timers are more stills shooters. This forum seems to have old population so stills it is on this forum."
"Yep, I get this impression this forum is heavily stills focused and hardly represents most of the newer market which is more video focused."
"Therein lies the flaw in your reasoning: using this website, and this forum, as a measure of popularity. This site is a gear site that has been focused on still cameras for most of its existence."
"Finally you can’t just rely on data just from this website because it’s a biased sample"
"I keep wondering why we think dpr forums are a good representation of the actual market."
"Dpreview has been more of a still oriented website"
If any of this were remotely accurate, Panasonic would not be plastering GH6 "deals" ads on the main page of DPR.
I did not say we are the ONLY target. Certainly a target. Which makes the lack of GH6 interest here all the more puzzling. If I said you were the target market for the EP7, would you take that to mean you were the ONLY person Olympus is marketing the camera to?You see, you said something I didn't say. I said we are *a target*, just not *the target*. So the so called "uniformed opinion" you quote that apparently you made up is in the dirt, but not my opinion
That's a straw man argument. Absence of data doesn't make your data good. Plus I already gave you links (and others) before on checking on sales data from big retailers.
It isn't a non sequitur- it's an analogy to demonstrate the logic being used.
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Raist3d
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You are going 100% or 0% when it's not like that. You can have a more stills pretended website with still a market that may be interested in hybrids. DPR has a part of the market on that. How big is that market, how is it represented for video (or stills market0 in the world real market is something that has too many variables to just assume it does.
There's definitively some dpreview members buying GH6's. Don't know where you got that dpreview members are not buying GH6's. Video questions being asked do not show that they are the majority focus of this website anyway.
As you demonstrate, video questions are being asked here. Which means DPR members are using video. But DPR members are not buying GH6's. Why is that?
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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - Apparently Selwyn Duke and not George Orwell
The data on content production shows a staggering and steady growth in video compared to stills.
With that basic background in mind, I dont think Panasonic have any choice here but to focus on video, if they have growth as part of their agenda, like most businesses.
The only scenario in which they could grow their business while staying focused on stills would be to win a dogfight with many other, and bigger, incumbents. You surely can see how that scenario get rejected out of hand when they sat down and looked at it.
Also this is part of Panasonic’s long and close partnership with Leica, which to some extent implies that at the high end, they aim the devices that Panasonic OEMs to sit under the Leica brand to own high end stills side of things while the Panasonic brand is used to capture the video-focused side of things.
For reference I am comparing my GX8 and GX85 to Sony A7C. Shooting in FF and apsc mode. Higher recoverability of shadows highlights (DR?), less color noise, shallower dept of field. And the instant accurate focusing is much better than m43 especially at shallow dept of field.
Using M43 has taught me to appreciate low MP. I shoot with apsc lenses on my FF to get a smaller system that nets me 4k video still but only 10.6MP stills. Which are perfectly workable to get better than m43 results, after post processing for noise and image resizing, up to 24MP. I take a lot of flack in the Sony forums for "wasting" an FF sensor by shooting apsc, but when I want the system small I use apsc lens. As an example, the Sony 50/1.2 GM lens is the best lens I have ever shot, nothing in m43 comes close. Nothing. BUT it is too big for every day carry in that situation, I use a $69 FF TTartisans 50/2 manual focus lens. Smaller than my GX8 with the PL 50/1.4 lens, and the output is comparable. Also I can do some pretty trick things like take pictures, and have the uploaded to my phone, and then uploaded to the cloud AS I TAKE THEM. That's next level capabilities...
To be honest there are only 3 things I want, and Sony already does them but in SLR style cameras, and I love RF style camera's, so I will wait. They are 4k60p video, Electronic Stabilization, and in camera raw development(this one less so because I usually have a camera that can do the same).
I only have a FF system, that I can shoot in apsc mode. As for size the best m43 lenses are often larger than FF lenses. look at the Oly 12-100 compared to the Tamron 28-200 FF. The PL 50-200 compared to the Sony 70-350 (apsc). The size argument no long holds water. As for costs, the glass cost what it cost. But where I like to shoot 24-50mm, I don't gain much weight or size vs m43. I CAN use larger heavier lenses but they need to be worth the weight. (50GM is worth it).
See that's the sort of thinking that is causing M43 to lose market share. I can still take good pictures with my m43 system. That doesn't change. But if you can afford to switch you just have better gear with Sony. I want one camera that does many things. The A7C takes advantage of what FF is good at, and what M43 is good at, and what a camcorder is good at, by virtue of it's ports, lenses, and accessories. If all I did was stills, I would get something like an x100v, Sony R1 or a Leica Q/Q2. Because I can make a 28mm/35mm lens work in the range I shoot in most 24-50. But sometimes I have to video the kids at a game in a stadium and need a small long telephoto. Sometimes I need a portrait camera that has luxurious rendering and shallow depth of field. Sometimes I need a camera to take snapshots.
One got back into cameras I chose the GX85 because it was small, had the most features and I figured they had to add a mic jack and a usb-c port. They sorta answered it with, to me, the best camera body ever in the GX8 and a 2.5 port but no in camera charging or usb-c. I know I am in the minority in m43, but if they had just added those ports, I would still be ok with shooting 1080/60 video and processing my 20MP stills on my GX8.
thinkinginimages
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I'm tired of the subtle Panasonic bashing and the endless praise for the now dead Olympus, a company that has bailed out of photo 3 TIMES (35mm OM's, Four Thirds, and now MFT). Maybe OM will survive, maybe not. It can't rely on hype, retro, and "heritage" anymore.
Panasonic has survived two decades in photo and has a full line of cameras up to full frame. The majority, if not all are very video capable. Then there's the dedicated video cameras, a range up to broadcasting, CCTV cameras. There's the Leica connection to consider, too.
And yet, with all its success and longevity selling cameras without hype, much marketing (or scandals), people doubt Panasonic.
Olympus played the retro/heritage card way too long (4+ decades!). The digital OM and Pen were nothing like the film OM and Pen. Olympus was barking up the wrong marketing tree and now they're gone. Why didn't another photo company snap up Olympus?
Panasonic has survived two decades in photo and has a full line of cameras up to full frame. The majority, if not all are very video capable. Then there's the dedicated video cameras, a range up to broadcasting, CCTV cameras. There's the Leica connection to consider, too.
And yet, with all its success and longevity selling cameras without hype, much marketing (or scandals), people doubt Panasonic.
Olympus played the retro/heritage card way too long (4+ decades!). The digital OM and Pen were nothing like the film OM and Pen. Olympus was barking up the wrong marketing tree and now they're gone. Why didn't another photo company snap up Olympus?
VI KING
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One might think the MP alone (25!) would sell the GH6 but in use it became obvious that dumping more MP on the sensor was not enough to move product. Maybe when the price lowers. Although the 26MP XH2s seems to be doing quite well at $2500 and seems to be aimed at the same advanced video crowd.
Which "video sites" are you referring to? Please link.The community at dpreview has a history of being more stills oriented. Having more in depth reviews of particular areas will attract a community looking for that information. Same with other sites that focus more on video or put as much focus on video as stills.Examples showing that "in depth review" leads to sales?Having some video questions being asked here or reviewing here some ILC video capability doesn't compare to the kind of in-depth review / interest of video oriented websites, and it's a relatively new development at dpreview.Indeed because we are target for those ads...just like GH6.
Video questions are being asked here. Reviews of ILC video capability are posted. Why the lack of interest with GH6?Are you serious about this? Have you not noticed when people ask video related questions, very few here seem to have the expertise to answer? Whereas when a stills related question is asked, there are plenty of useful responses, way more than if a video related question is asked.Read the statements posted in this thread by you and others:
"Old timers are more stills shooters. This forum seems to have old population so stills it is on this forum."
"Yep, I get this impression this forum is heavily stills focused and hardly represents most of the newer market which is more video focused."
"Therein lies the flaw in your reasoning: using this website, and this forum, as a measure of popularity. This site is a gear site that has been focused on still cameras for most of its existence."
"Finally you can’t just rely on data just from this website because it’s a biased sample"
"I keep wondering why we think dpr forums are a good representation of the actual market."
"Dpreview has been more of a still oriented website"
If any of this were remotely accurate, Panasonic would not be plastering GH6 "deals" ads on the main page of DPR.
I did not say we are the ONLY target. Certainly a target. Which makes the lack of GH6 interest here all the more puzzling. If I said you were the target market for the EP7, would you take that to mean you were the ONLY person Olympus is marketing the camera to?You see, you said something I didn't say. I said we are *a target*, just not *the target*. So the so called "uniformed opinion" you quote that apparently you made up is in the dirt, but not my opinion
Let me guess, you have no data to discuss...
We are on DPR talking about DPR. If there is another source of "uptake" on a video website somewhere, lets see it.
An analogy...that doesn't follow. ipso facto, non sequitur.
So we are a target market for Panasonic. Now that we've established that, why (to the OP's point) is there little interest in the GH6? It shoots stills too!
Yes, about 30 of them in 5 months. In the same time period there are nearly 10X OM-1 owners here. Even the XH2S (launched 6 weeks ago) already exceeds GH6 here. Why? All these cameras are roughly the same price point. Yet the Gh6 garnered little interest.There's definitively some dpreview members buying GH6's. Don't know where you got that dpreview members are not buying GH6's. Video questions being asked do not show that they are the majority focus of this website anyway.
As you demonstrate, video questions are being asked here. Which means DPR members are using video. But DPR members are not buying GH6's. Why is that?
TechRAW
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This all sounds very petty (sorry). Panasonic has made great stills cameras in the past. From Tom Caldwell's post it seems the OM-1 has garnered more attention and the Lumix line might be moving away from stills shooters. Did you buy a GH6? Why or why not?
Bassam Guy
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I was referring to the thinking that, in my estimation, would most contribute to a potential death of micro four thirds. Had I said that all FF consumers were naïve, your response might have some credence.
Bassam Guy
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I was unaware that Sony FFs can emulate APSC.
Thank you for clarifying what you meant by "performance". FYI: My definition overlaps yours but also includes weather sealing, stabilization, live composite, pro cap (which has saved me countless hours of culling), etc.
...
Bassam Guy
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Are you sure you meant to reply to my comment that said nothing about Olympus or Panasonic except to passingly praise the new sensors from "O. and P."? If my comment contained "subtle Panasonic bashing", please explain so I will not repeat the same mistake.
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