Canon and ETTR

Captive18

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Is it just me or does Canon sensors not seem to pull back highlight details in RAW? Obviously I strive to expose correctly, but When I shot other digital cameras (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) in the past it seemed like I could pull back about 2 stops over-exposed images. i haven’t found that to be true with my Canon R5. It actually seems to be able to lift shadows better than bring down highlights….which doesn’t make sense to me with ETTR.

To be clear I’m not dissing Canon. I love my camera. Im just a little confused on the sensor differences. Has anyone else experienced this? I are there specific settings to restrict highlight detail, but preserve shadows more?



TIA
 
Is it just me or does Canon sensors not seem to pull back highlight details in RAW? Obviously I strive to expose correctly, but When I shot other digital cameras (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) in the past it seemed like I could pull back about 2 stops over-exposed images. i haven’t found that to be true with my Canon R5. It actually seems to be able to lift shadows better than bring down highlights….which doesn’t make sense to me with ETTR.

To be clear I’m not dissing Canon. I love my camera. Im just a little confused on the sensor differences. Has anyone else experienced this? I are there specific settings to restrict highlight detail, but preserve shadows more?

TIA
I don't know exactly what you did, and there has been a lot of debate on this topic above the definition and methods of ETTR. My understanding of ETTR is to adjust the exposure such that the histogram just touches the right of the screen. So, in theory, there should be no clipping. If you ignore the right tail of the histogram, ETTR based on the right hand "mass," you have a significant number of pixels that are more than 2ev blown out.

My conclusion (as supported below) is that there is about 2ev of headroom with the R5's RAW files.

Also, it is pretty subjective and easy to miss clipping when looking at the histogram on the back of a camera. The only "highlight/clipping" alert is available on playback, so unless you take a test picture, you would not know if you are clipping more than you think. It would be nice if there was a clipping option when shooting stills (there are zebra bars in video, but not photo, mode).

I was looking at a photo that was a bit overexposed with a specular highlight that was blown out. It hit me that this picture might provide a good test of the R5's headroom. (It would have been useful to have used a circular polarizer to eliminate the specular highlight - something to try next time)

First, I want to note that I was shooting airplanes against a bright sky, and I set the evaluative metering (should weight on the focus point) to +1ev because the sky was so much brighter than the planes and due to the sun's direction. I didn't want the planes to be too dark and figured I could recover +1ev without a problem. As this was "unplanned," there was an ISO value of ISO500. I guess for a "true test," it should have been ISO100. Additionally, I was using all electronic shutter, which if anything, should hurt the dynamic range.

BTW, the plane was taxing/moving slowly. I use the RF100-500 at 100mm and 1/125th of (I think I was using IS mode 1).

For the picture used in this test, the plane was coming in for a landing with the ground behind the plane, and the plane came out overexposed (by about 1ev as I had set on the camera). There is the specular highlight that, in turn, is much brighter and blown out. I ran an experiment where I corrected in Adobe Camera RAW by 0ev (as shot), -1ev (as should have been shot), and -2.4ev (based on eliminating all clipping when viewed in ACR).

I found it particularly interesting to look at the yellow part of the plane's roundel marking. As long as the red and green are not blown, it will be yellow.

319f4371fa3a4e5e873b61cf938dc718.jpg

618e47b175a441078bd2d7bb39abadef.jpg

349d3b06d2c24f468e6f4360a03dbbd0.jpg

Below are the 3 roundels side by side with the various adjustments. Particularly note how progressively more of the yellow is recovered at about 45 degrees to the left of the center. It looks like I can recover about 2ev of the color in the roundel.

151eef4eec9c4f98ba7409a610dcca18.jpg

Below is the final edited image at full resolution. I ended up blending about 80% of the -1ev on top of the -2.4ev. I then use Topaz Sharpen AI on the result and added +20 saturation to make the colors pop a little more.

c93cd2311a5442a79365593eeaceaa21.jpg
 
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Is it just me or does Canon sensors not seem to pull back highlight details in RAW? Obviously I strive to expose correctly, but When I shot other digital cameras (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) in the past it seemed like I could pull back about 2 stops over-exposed images. i haven’t found that to be true with my Canon R5. It actually seems to be able to lift shadows better than bring down highlights….which doesn’t make sense to me with ETTR.

To be clear I’m not dissing Canon. I love my camera. Im just a little confused on the sensor differences. Has anyone else experienced this? I are there specific settings to restrict highlight detail, but preserve shadows more?

TIA
I don't know exactly what you did, and there has been a lot of debate on this topic above the definition and methods of ETTR. My understanding of ETTR is to adjust the exposure such that the histogram just touches the right of the screen. So, in theory, there should be no clipping. If you ignore the right tail of the histogram, ETTR based on the right hand "mass," you have a significant number of pixels that are more than 2ev blown out.

My conclusion (as supported below) is that there is about 2ev of headroom with the R5's RAW files.
I did some analysis about 2 years ago when I purchased the R5, and it was 0.5-1.5ev. That is, if the histogram is ETTR'ed with normal WB, you can ETTR by 0.5-1.5 stops more with UniWB. It depends on the conditions (daylight, shade, sunset, blue hour etc.)
Also, it is pretty subjective and easy to miss clipping when looking at the histogram on the back of a camera. The only "highlight/clipping" alert is available on playback,
Which is a shame for Canon. Keeping in mind, there are blinkies in video mode.
First, I want to note that I was shooting airplanes against a bright sky, and I set the evaluative metering (should weight on the focus point) to +1ev because the sky was so much brighter than the planes and due to the sun's direction. I didn't want the planes to be too dark and figured I could recover +1ev without a problem. As this was "unplanned," there was an ISO value of ISO500. I guess for a "true test," it should have been ISO100. Additionally, I was using all electronic shutter, which if anything, should hurt the dynamic range.
ETTR at ISO 500 doesn't make much sense. With the R5, ISO 100 and in some cases ISO 400 can be used for ETTR.
 
, and one may need multiple correcting WBs for different conditions.
As always.
For landscape, I find standard in-camera WB presets adequate - so that when editing, I have an initial WB close to the reality. Magenta filer would require a grey card all the time, or most of the time.

With the raw files, the GG channels usually dominate (again speaking of landscapes), but at sunset and blue hour, the max R or B may catch up with the max G.
I've never used magenta filters and from this discussion they look like a big hassle
"I haven't read Pasternak, but I condemn him".
"But I love his paintings!"
 
Is it just me or does Canon sensors not seem to pull back highlight details in RAW?
It depends on the camera. The R5 can handle more overexposure than other Canons, and highlight headroom has crept up a little over the years with new camera releases(due to dual conv), some other models not as much. All Canons these days have HTP as an option, which trades away a stop of "footroom" for an extra stop of headroom, which is more like some other cameras with more headroom, but there is no ISO 100 setting with HTP, although ISO 200 can handle an ISO 100 exposure easily.

So, basically ISO 200 with HTP uses the same RAW gain and digitization as plain ISO 100 but exposes for 200, and the OOC JPEGs and most converters will brighten it one stop to make it work like ISO 200.
 
Is it just me or does Canon sensors not seem to pull back highlight details in RAW? Obviously I strive to expose correctly, but When I shot other digital cameras (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) in the past it seemed like I could pull back about 2 stops over-exposed images. i haven’t found that to be true with my Canon R5. It actually seems to be able to lift shadows better than bring down highlights….which doesn’t make sense to me with ETTR.

To be clear I’m not dissing Canon. I love my camera. Im just a little confused on the sensor differences. Has anyone else experienced this? I are there specific settings to restrict highlight detail, but preserve shadows more?

TIA
I don't know exactly what you did, and there has been a lot of debate on this topic above the definition and methods of ETTR. My understanding of ETTR is to adjust the exposure such that the histogram just touches the right of the screen. So, in theory, there should be no clipping. If you ignore the right tail of the histogram, ETTR based on the right hand "mass," you have a significant number of pixels that are more than 2ev blown out.

My conclusion (as supported below) is that there is about 2ev of headroom with the R5's RAW files.
I did some analysis about 2 years ago when I purchased the R5, and it was 0.5-1.5ev. That is, if the histogram is ETTR'ed with normal WB, you can ETTR by 0.5-1.5 stops more with UniWB. It depends on the conditions (daylight, shade, sunset, blue hour etc.)
Thanks, good to know, and probably the number the OP wanted. It does say that there is some headroom when shooting RAW, but maybe not the 2 stops people seem to expect.
Also, it is pretty subjective and easy to miss clipping when looking at the histogram on the back of a camera. The only "highlight/clipping" alert is available on playback,
Which is a shame for Canon. Keeping in mind, there are blinkies in video mode.
'Agreed. It is dumb with a mirrorless camera that there is not a visual warning you could optionally turn on. My Olympus camera from several years ago has this feature. This fact means that to ETTR you pretty much need to take test pictures if you want to be safe.

I suspect that the reason the OP was having problems was that they were accidentally overexposing.
First, I want to note that I was shooting airplanes against a bright sky, and I set the evaluative metering (should weight on the focus point) to +1ev because the sky was so much brighter than the planes and due to the sun's direction. I didn't want the planes to be too dark and figured I could recover +1ev without a problem. As this was "unplanned," there was an ISO value of ISO500. I guess for a "true test," it should have been ISO100. Additionally, I was using all electronic shutter, which if anything, should hurt the dynamic range.
ETTR at ISO 500 doesn't make much sense. With the R5, ISO 100 and in some cases ISO 400 can be used for ETTR.
I was not tripod shooting stills. I was using Manual Exposure with auto-ISO, so I could control the shutter speed and aperture. It happened to be photography, where I had set the EV to +1, and I wanted to recover the highlights and see how many stops could be recovered. I would think that if anything the results would be worst at ISO500 than they would be at ISO100.
 
, and one may need multiple correcting WBs for different conditions.
As always.
For landscape, I find standard in-camera WB presets adequate
I don't.
- so that when editing, I have an initial WB close to the reality. Magenta filer would require a grey card all the time, or most of the time.
No :) Most of the time Auto WB does the job.
Canon has really delivered with AWB - much better now than it used to be.
 

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