RED sues Nikon

No, the other chance is that the TicoRAW IP they licensed from intoPIX does not violate the specific claims of the Red patents. You can't just patent "compressed video raw" - you have to specify in detail the methods to do the compression. There are a lot of ways to do compression. intoPix may have found a method that Red did not think of or cover by a claim in their patents.
Tell that to Apple. The patent is visually lossless video compression using a Bayer CFA in a camera. So I guess Fujifilm could do it if they decided to do RAW video compression using their X-Trans CFA inside their cameras...

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/P...tution_Decision-17-Trial_Instituted_Document/
 
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Glad to read the various comments. I've read much about RED (and their prices!) but knew little of their cooperate culture... I'll do some more research but will most likely never use their products now.

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"The present is the only point where time touches eternity" C.S. Lewis
 
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No, the other chance is that the TicoRAW IP they licensed from intoPIX does not violate the specific claims of the Red patents. You can't just patent "compressed video raw" - you have to specify in detail the methods to do the compression. There are a lot of ways to do compression. intoPix may have found a method that Red did not think of or cover by a claim in their patents.
Tell that to Apple. The patent is visually lossless video compression using a Bayer CFA in a camera. So I guess Fujifilm could do it if they decided to do RAW video compression using their X-Trans CFA inside their cameras...

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/P...tution_Decision-17-Trial_Instituted_Document/
Read the first paragraph of that link. Apple tried to claim that the Red claims were unpatentable. That is very different than claiming another method of video compression that is not covered by the Red claims, as intoPIX and Nikon would likely do. In other words, Nikon would admit that the Red claims are valid, but not applicable to the methods that they are using.
 
Without the patent system we would have a lot less innovation. If innovators knew that some big company would just steal their idea and put them out of business, we wouldn't have many startups at all.

If anything, the patent system is too weak, because it's still too easy for big companies to crush small companies by sheer size of their legal team. I used to work for IBM who was known for their "shock and awe" legal offensive strategies. We patented all sorts of sh*t that we never intended to make just to create a massive portfolio that the lawyers could bludgeon other companies with. I can claim a bunch of patents on my resumes - but some of them were useless for anything other than legal flak.
 
No, the other chance is that the TicoRAW IP they licensed from intoPIX does not violate the specific claims of the Red patents. You can't just patent "compressed video raw" - you have to specify in detail the methods to do the compression. There are a lot of ways to do compression. intoPix may have found a method that Red did not think of or cover by a claim in their patents.
Tell that to Apple. The patent is visually lossless video compression using a Bayer CFA in a camera. So I guess Fujifilm could do it if they decided to do RAW video compression using their X-Trans CFA inside their cameras...

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/P...tution_Decision-17-Trial_Instituted_Document/
Read the first paragraph of that link. Apple tried to claim that the Red claims were unpatentable. That is very different than claiming another method of video compression that is not covered by the Red claims, as intoPIX and Nikon would likely do. In other words, Nikon would admit that the Red claims are valid, but not applicable to the methods that they are using.
Did you read the actual patent - its not like Red gave the math formula for their compression scheme so that anyone using a different math formula could say they were not using Red's Patent.

Their Patent basically states any lossly RAW video compression that is visually lossless done in camera on a Bayer CFA is their idea.

I think Apple should have won but what do I know...
 
No, the other chance is that the TicoRAW IP they licensed from intoPIX does not violate the specific claims of the Red patents. You can't just patent "compressed video raw" - you have to specify in detail the methods to do the compression. There are a lot of ways to do compression. intoPix may have found a method that Red did not think of or cover by a claim in their patents.
Tell that to Apple. The patent is visually lossless video compression using a Bayer CFA in a camera. So I guess Fujifilm could do it if they decided to do RAW video compression using their X-Trans CFA inside their cameras...

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/P...tution_Decision-17-Trial_Instituted_Document/
Read the first paragraph of that link. Apple tried to claim that the Red claims were unpatentable. That is very different than claiming another method of video compression that is not covered by the Red claims, as intoPIX and Nikon would likely do. In other words, Nikon would admit that the Red claims are valid, but not applicable to the methods that they are using.
Did you read the actual patent - its not like Red gave the math formula for their compression scheme so that anyone using a different math formula could say they were not using Red's Patent.

Their Patent basically states any lossly RAW video compression that is visually lossless done in camera on a Bayer CFA is their idea.

I think Apple should have won but what do I know...
The complaint references 7 patents, not just one. Take the first one (US7830967B1 ) for example. Let's look at claim 1:

1. A video camera comprising:
a portable housing:
a lens assembly Supported by the housing and configured to
receive light;
a light sensitive device configured to convert the light into
digital raw image data with a resolution of at least 2 kat
a frame rate of at least about 23 frames per second;
a memory device Supported by the housing; and
an image processing system configured to perform a pre
emphasis function on the digital raw image data
, to
compress the digital raw image data after performing the
pre-emphasis function Such that the digital raw image
data remains Substantially visually lossless upon decompression, and to store the compressed digital raw
image data in the memory device at a rate of at least
about 23 frames per second, wherein the pre-emphasis
function comprises a curve defined by the function
y=(x+c) g, where 0.01 <g.<1 and c is an offset.


So right in the first claim, which is the most general and important one, a specific equation is given for a pre-emphasis function. Now If I make a video camera that uses no pre-emphasis function, or a different pre-emphasis function, then Claim 1 does not apply to me. ALL the things in the claim must be true for the claim to hold.

Now look at claim 3:

3. A video camera as in claim 1, wherein the digital raw
image data is 12-bit data and the pre-emphasis function com
prises a curve defined by the function y=(X/4095)0.5.

This is a subordinate claim to claim 1, so is less general. But it specifies 12-bit data. If I make a 14-bit camera, then claim 3 does not apply to me. I did a text search and I find no claims pertaining to a 14-bit recording in this document.

So this is how Nikon's attorneys will proceed. They will pick apart the claims one by one to show that they don't apply to Nikon's method, when all the details of the claim are considered precisely and at once. Each and every detail of the claim must apply.

I'm not a patent attorney but I've > 50 patents and I've written many of the claims myself (with good coaching from a patent lawyer). This particular patent looks weak to me. The claims are way too specific, and highly specific claims are easy to circumvent. You use 13 bits instead of 12 and claim 3 is null, for example. This patent looks like one written by an engineer who didn't get enough coaching by an attorney. Engineers always want to describe how it works rather than what's the broadest concept that can be claimed.
 
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No, the other chance is that the TicoRAW IP they licensed from intoPIX does not violate the specific claims of the Red patents. You can't just patent "compressed video raw" - you have to specify in detail the methods to do the compression. There are a lot of ways to do compression. intoPix may have found a method that Red did not think of or cover by a claim in their patents.
Tell that to Apple. The patent is visually lossless video compression using a Bayer CFA in a camera. So I guess Fujifilm could do it if they decided to do RAW video compression using their X-Trans CFA inside their cameras...

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/P...tution_Decision-17-Trial_Instituted_Document/
You have to read the actual proceedings to know the details of the suits. Apple wasn't fully prepared and thus held to a very narrow scope in discovery. We'll see what happens but the outcome is far from a certainty.
 
Without the patent system we would have a lot less innovation. If innovators knew that some big company would just steal their idea and put them out of business, we wouldn't have many startups at all.

If anything, the patent system is too weak, because it's still too easy for big companies to crush small companies by sheer size of their legal team. I used to work for IBM who was known for their "shock and awe" legal offensive strategies. We patented all sorts of sh*t that we never intended to make just to create a massive portfolio that the lawyers could bludgeon other companies with. I can claim a bunch of patents on my resumes - but some of them were useless for anything other than legal flak.
I don't think he meant the concept of a patent, just the granting of extremely broad patents that are more conceptual than innovative.
 
... wherein the pre-emphasis
function comprises a curve defined by the function
y=(x+c) g, where 0.01 <g.<1 and c is an offset.


.. and the pre-emphasis function comprises a curve defined by the function y=(X/4095)0.5.
It boggles the mind they allow common sense stuff like that to be patented. Having skimmed the patents I can't seem to find real innovation or invention, just old concepts repackaged for in-camera use at more than 23 fps.
 
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... wherein the pre-emphasis
function comprises a curve defined by the function
y=(x+c) g, where 0.01 <g.<1 and c is an offset.


.. and the pre-emphasis function comprises a curve defined by the function y=(X/4095)0.5.
It boggles the mind they allow common sense stuff like that to be patented. Having skimmed the patents I can't seem to find real innovation or invention, just old concepts repackaged for in-camera use at more than 23 fps.
(Note to self: patent same with a few tweaks for quantum computing applications before some other inventive genius thinks of it.)
 
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And the fact that compression can be patented....and the fact that companies with enough money can just hire a team of lawyers to bother other companies. I hope RED loses....
and these companies often file anything they can dream up just to get revenue back when they`re desperate (Kodak anyone ? ) - all that happens is that greedy lawyers make a pile of cash as always and the legal system gets bogged down with more pointless crapp

I hope RED lose too , filing cases like this is doing more to hold the market back and harm it than forward it , It`s the consumers who lose out in the end and end up paying for it .

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** Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist **
 
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This lawsuit is an indication that “perhaps” Nikon failed to cross all the T's and dot the I's before launching NRaw.

No doubt, given the importance of the Z9's video capabilities to the future of the company, Nikon would have tried its best -- but if both parties could not close, then going ahead and forcing RED to sue is probably the only way Nikon considered that a “reasonable” price would be set for the rights that RED consider have been infringed.

This is far from the first time such an approach has been required.

The case has a long long way to go before it will impact users and it is in neither party’s interest for Nikon sales to be impacted eitherway.

However -- it does create uncertainty.
 
You could see this coming months back. RED being the patent whores of the industry have a long history of stifling new tech development.

As the genie is already out of the bottle with FW2.0, RED can go screw themselves. Even if RED win it will be a hollow victory, Nikon has planned this from the start. Nicely Played.
Well we will have to hear the ruling .......... and see whether Nikon played nicely or will have to pay nicely !!
 
ajm057 wrote: [...] the rights that RED consider have been infringed. [...]
Exactly what rights does RED consider have been infringed? It'd be interesting to know.
Try reading the filing -- links are in previous posts.
I did, and I don't get what is patentable there, hence the question. As already quoted by others upthread, the claims from the seven patents build on the first one from 2010 and pretty well all say the same things verbatim, with a few later integrations and tweaks:

"...to compress and store in the [camera] the raw image data at a compression ratio of at least six to one and remain substantially visually lossless, and at a rate of at least about 23 frames per second."

As to how this is accomplished, they admittedly take their cue from models of color vision going back to the 1800's and difference spaces like YCbCr but '...applied directly to Bayer pattern data...', then stored compressed in memory after 'pre-emphasis'.

The proposed 'pre-emphasis' algorithms are all tried and true linear/log/LUT curves and anyways any and all are supposedly covered by the patent because '...these are merely exemplary curves that can be used to process the image data...'.

Is this it?
 
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More likely the other way around. Look at DJI that pulled Prores raw before shipping. Nikon likely told Red to go ahead and sue .

Red needs to scare people to enforce it's patent. The moment somebody wins the flood gates open.

Nikon either believes they'll win. Or they have a workaround already. It could be not shipping raw in the US. It could be a minor tweak. It could be Z9 II forcing Red to sue all over again.

Nikon knows the clock is ticking on that patent. All it takes is some delaying and Red has zero leverage.
 
A little history

Apple looses

News shooters’ report

I suggest folk stop Worrying about RED’s patent or the choices Nikon made — this will be resolved in the court and it will take a while AND Nikon are not dumb, have an exceptionally strong legal and commercial team AND would not have release v2.0 unless they were prepared for a fight.

[[THE LAWSUIT - As has been noted in many places -- we don't have to conclude anything about the lawsuit many courts will do so -- and not just in the USA. Firstly as noted this is an amazingly technical subject and very very few patent and copyright lawyers are qualified to comment -- but they won't because, unless they are actually involved, they also are not dumb enough to comment. Unless you are already an Intellectual Property specialist do not waste time reviewing the patents RED has, the claims or speculating on potential outcomes OR whining about the international patent and copyright system, which exists for very good reasons and is supported by international treaty.
NO-ONE who has a Z9 with v2.0, particularly those of us not located in the US court's jurisdiction, can be forced to remove the features already in th camera and so this is only about potential damages -- if any. This lawsuit is an indication that “perhaps” Nikon was unable to cross all the t's and dot the i's before launching the v2.0 update. HOWEVER -- no doubt, given the importance of the Z9's video capabilities to the future of the company, Nikon would have tried its best -- but if both parties could not close, then going ahead and forcing RED to sue is probably the only way Nikon considered that a “reasonable” price would be set for the rights that RED consider have been infringed. This is far from the first time such an approach has been required. The case has a long long way to go before it will impact users and it is in neither party’s interest for Nikon sales to be adversely impacted either way. However -- it does create uncertainty. But do not worry the sky is not about to fall down on anyone.]]

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areallygrumpyoldsod
 
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